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Hitler and secret societies

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posted on May, 3 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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The Nazis were the result of a long planned operation against the German people.

It was planned by the Secret Societies that have infested Germany and England (starting with the Royal families and working down) since the 1600s (and much longer, in private).

They created the situation where the English were lied to about German actions in WWI, INCLUDING Eating Babies, something people on this Board to this day USE to distract, and take people's concentration away, and promote anger!

When WWI started, people were told unequivocally that the things said about the Germans were true, but if enough people volunteered, "THEY WOULD ALL BE HOME BY CHRISTMAS"

War was only declared August 14, so that meant by the time people heard about the fact that THEY would have to go, they thought of it as a chance to get out of the home, and see the world (something British citizens WERE NOT allowed to do! There were travel restrictions, not by accident either)

Tens of Thousands lined up with smiles on their faces, just to be sent to 4 years of hell, that they thought their government would do their best to KEEP THEM OUT of...

Recruiting drives were held By the Town, meaning, it was your duty to make sure your town contributed as many, or more, soldiers than the next town! Of course, the stupidity of the strategy was not made known until much later, that although these men would be fighting together, they would be taking orders from men who did not give a damn about them.

The story goes, when they landed at the Sonne (hmmm, German for Sun), it was 2 years in the making (training and preparing together) and
10 minutes in the destroying.

The fact that the war ended unresolved is SPELLED-out in the Peace Treaty, signed on 11/11/18, at 11:11. 11 is incomplete, it is one short of perfection.

So that is 3 pairs of 11, the month and day, the day and hour, and the hour and minute.

So that would predict the next war would have to include some 3 pairs of 11s, right? And so, to end World War II, the 33rd President waited for 33 days after July 4, 13 squared (169) years after 1776, and dropped Atomic Bomb on Mission 13, on the
33 degree on Hiroshima!

Then, on August 13, it was all ova...

"I like how most talk like the Nazi where something New and no longer Exist and arnt still part of the Brotherhood"

They aren't new, they didn't lose ('cept how they planned to), and all the key personnel (scientists, engineers, business men) formed key parts of the Brotherhood for the last 60 years.




posted on May, 3 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by lostinspace
I agree Hitler was trying to achieve perfection of Atlantis. He had his people researching the enigma before he launched his campagn. I really never though about it before but the comment made about Hitler contacting god and having divine backing and even touching the blood stained cloth seems to make more sense now. I was watching a program today on the History Channel about how the the Nazis fooled the allies so many times throughout the war. It seemed Hitler was always ahead of the game. They said on the program that it was so strange that the Germans would always be at the right place at the right time. I will now bet that when Hitler and his people were searching for the secrets of Atlantis they stumbled across something not of this world. Remember my comments of the Foo Fighters chassing the all the combat planes of World War II. The Foo Fighters are even shown on ancient cave paintings of Cuba and Maya base-reliefs. Its highly possible that the famous ancient civilization lay at the bottom of the Caribbean. Hitler had help alright, but its not who you think, its the other guy. That's how Hitler's army could stay ahead of the game, they employed the spirit realm or that the spirit realm began to help them. Hitler's army was doing what they always dreamed.


I guess the spirit world forgot to tell AH about russian winters and our H-bomb !

read a great book about hitler going after a time travel device so he could do just what you describe, lightning by dean koontz...if your interested.....



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by obzkured
this topic will be posted in the secret societies as well as in the paranormal studies.
first i want to clearly state that this is not a thread against secret societies,
beyond the suspected masonry of Hitler and Beyond any hate.
i am a begginer in this above top secret stuff, my introduction message was just that i wanted to know. keep that in mind.
so, can anyone please give me information about the relatioship betwen hitler, secret societies, magic, Crowley etc.?.
i know this topic may have been posted lots of times, sorry guys, i'm just a newbie who wants to learn.


a good book for you to read would be "rule by secrecy" by jim marrs



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Dion Fortune (not her actual name, but the one by which she is best known) felt very strongly that Hitler was a member of a Black Lodge and was using magic/occult-techniques against the UK. Being a loyal Brit, Dion is allledged to have engaged Hitler and his evil magicians on the Astral plane. This is, according to at least one biography, the reason she started her own group in the wake of the collapse of the Golden Dawn, of which she was also a member.

Dion's organization still exists as a Christian/Gnostic/Hermetic group, although it is quite small and, seemingly, sedate.

I believe they are pretty wealthy, however, since they hold the rights to all of her work... which includes a number of the standards in the non-Regardie GD line.

Anyway....



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
When I began to notice a pattern, that almost all of the groups who preach hatred and conspiracy against Freemasons are either White Supremecists, Extreme right wing religous nuts, communists, fascists ect, I began suspect the Freemasons of evil doing less and less, since the people who hate them most tend to be the model of what is wrong with humanity.

Well, keep your eyes open. I disagree with your 'finding,' but that's O.K. As you referred to earlier- it is maybe just the vocal ones you notice.

There is a lot of smoke and mirrors regarding many things. Every now and then- truly by accident, I stumble into one of these Secret Society threads. This one because of Hitler. Look at the threads in here.

Not much gets past the first few steps regarding any 'secret society' until the Masons pop into the thread. When that happens the thread degenerates.

What is sad here at ATS is that the Masons can't step back and look at other things. When their favorite calling gets mentioned an instant target appears. Think about all the Templar, Rosicrucian, Vril, Thule, Golden Dawn, Golden Circle and others that can't get discussed because of this. There is fairly standard serve and return, I sometimes wonder if a few of the detractors aren't just red herrings!.

The only groups it is safe to slam are the supremacist groups. This by itself makes me suspicious.



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Well, keep your eyes open. I disagree with your 'finding,' but that's O.K. As you referred to earlier- it is maybe just the vocal ones you notice.

There is a lot of smoke and mirrors regarding many things. Every now and then- truly by accident, I stumble into one of these Secret Society threads. This one because of Hitler. Look at the threads in here.

Not much gets past the first few steps regarding any 'secret society' until the Masons pop into the thread. When that happens the thread degenerates.

What is sad here at ATS is that the Masons can't step back and look at other things. When their favorite calling gets mentioned an instant target appears. Think about all the Templar, Rosicrucian, Vril, Thule, Golden Dawn, Golden Circle and others that can't get discussed because of this. There is fairly standard serve and return, I sometimes wonder if a few of the detractors aren't just red herrings!.

The only groups it is safe to slam are the supremacist groups. This by itself makes me suspicious.


That is absolutely UNTRUE! We are only trying to clear our names from the lies that have been told about us for centuries! You would do the same thing if you were in my position, I guarantee you.

Whenever someone starts an HONEST discussion about Freemasonry, all we do is participate like normal people. But we are here to educate people about THE TRUTH of Freemasonry, and none of the conspiracy theorists on this forum will have any of it. Like we're untrustworthy or something.

And the threads do not degenerate when we get involved. They end because nobody can provide ANY EVIDENCE for the claims they made.

Like I said, you would do the same thing.


[edit on 3-5-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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sebatwerk, will you please give your whining a rest. Drop the mason act and act like a human being, if thats possible



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
sebatwerk, will you please give your whining a rest. Drop the mason act and act like a human being, if thats possible


Please ask yourself. Are you really here to learn? Are you here to help facilitate learning? Do you have the capability to actively listen? Can you make postings that are relevant and which help the members of this site?

A while ago, someone interested in real knowledge posted a question/insight, so he can make a judgement based on fact and research. If you don't remember, it went something like this


Originally posted by obzkured
this topic will be posted in the secret societies as well as in the paranormal studies.
first i want to clearly state that this is not a thread against secret societies,
beyond the suspected masonry of Hitler and Beyond any hate.
i am a begginer in this above top secret stuff, my introduction message was just that i wanted to know. keep that in mind.
so, can anyone please give me information about the relatioship betwen hitler, secret societies, magic, Crowley etc.?.
i know this topic may have been posted lots of times, sorry guys, i'm just a newbie who wants to learn.


Is your personal beef and misunderstanding helping this dicussion board help this person? Becusae that is wht it is here for. Your bickering and little shows of dominance have no place amongst the realms of inteligent thought.

The topic is Hitler and secret societies, not who should be called out for being a mason. I am not a mason, I am here first to learn, second to facilitate learning. I know not, all the mysteries of the unverse, nor do I claim to. If you have a conspiracy thoery, go make a website and vidoes like Alex Jones. For now can we please, get back on topic. I am very interested in this thread and it is annoying to have to sift thought the clutter.

I have more sites on Hitler and secret societies, and some information about the nature of secret societies, and their motivations. Here they are:

members.austarmetro.com.au...
www.911-strike.com...
www.livingstonemusic.net...

this should provide a little wider view of this topic. Hope this board is helping you obzkured.



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
The only groups it is safe to slam are the supremacist groups. This by itself makes me suspicious.



That is absolutely UNTRUE! We are only trying to clear our names from the lies that have been told about us for centuries! You would do the same thing if you were in my position, I guarantee you.

That's how I see it. Let's add leftists to the mix.

'lies told . . . for centuries'

This in itself should tell you something. You like being a mason and you like masonry-fine. Some are not masons and some do not like masonry- why is it that is not also fine?


Whenever someone starts an HONEST discussion about Freemasonry, all we do is participate like normal people.

Other than the recruiting threads, when is that- never! This is a conspiracy site- wake up. To discuss Girl Scouts, Masonry or any other 'groups' in a positive and non-accusatory manner this is not the place.


But we are here to educate people about THE TRUTH of Freemasonry, and none of the conspiracy theorists on this forum will have any of it. Like we're untrustworthy or something.

Your view. What is THE truth? No one knows. Masons don't even know when, where and by whom their society began. How about thinking for a moment- 'if some of what they say is true, is that O.K.?


And the threads do not degenerate when we get involved. They end because nobody can provide ANY EVIDENCE for the claims they made.

Come on- you can't even post that without a slight wry smile. Like I said, I have read the threads. If some of the 'shooters' were at an archery tournament they would have gotten a few prizes.

Much like the Catholic Church, it has a blotted past mixed in with its successes. Catholics in general acknowledge this and move on. No organization is all good.

Look at akilles post at the top of the page and EyeofHorus, - now that is some interesting stuff. If it crosses into masonry then what?

I would like to know more about the Nazi misadventure. I think it is important to understand what was at work during those times.



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
This in itself should tell you something. You like being a mason and you like masonry-fine. Some are not masons and some do not like masonry- why is it that is not also fine?


Because they slander and spread falsities about the fraternity. It is not fine because they are making VERY SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AND ACCUSATIONS without the least bit of evidence.



Other than the recruiting threads, when is that- never! This is a conspiracy site- wake up. To discuss Girl Scouts, Masonry or any other 'groups' in a positive and non-accusatory manner this is not the place.


No, this site claims to "Deny Ignorance", so I am trying to change people's ignorant views of Freemasonry (I say ignorant because people believe the crap they read on other anti-masonry websites and repeat it without searching for any kind of evidence to see if those claims are true) and get people to understand that they cannot make accusations without any kind of evidence.

Also, that they should open their eyes to the evidence that we, the masons, present and accept it without thinking that our only job is to dis-inform and lie to non-masons about the fraternity.



Come on- you can't even post that without a slight wry smile. Like I said, I have read the threads. If some of the 'shooters' were at an archery tournament they would have gotten a few prizes.


Rarely. I can honestly say that NOBODY has EVER presented any kind of evidence for their claims against Freemasonry. Even after they have been ASKED and CHALLENGED several times, they either refuse to, with some lame excuse, or ignore the thread.

Myself and other masons have provided BOOKS' worth of true information about the fraternity, only to have it dismissed as disinformation and propaganda. And they continue to accuse us of ugly, ugly things, and then criticize us when we fight back!



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Other than the recruiting threads, when is that- never! This is a conspiracy site- wake up. To discuss Girl Scouts, Masonry or any other 'groups' in a positive and non-accusatory manner this is not the place.


This has got to be the most stupid thing I have ever seen posted on ATS. This individual just wants to sit around in their own private little world throwing accusations out and generally being negative with no throught or consideration for reality or the truth, which would clearly just spoil the fun.

Ignorance 1 Reality 0



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

This has got to be the most stupid thing I have ever seen posted on ATS. This individual just wants to sit around in their own private little world throwing accusations out and generally being negative with no throught or consideration for reality or the truth, which would clearly just spoil the fun.

Ignorance 1 Reality 0

What accusations? Where's the negativity?

The thread in case you forgot is about Hitler and secret societies. Show me the reality you refer to and truth- you can't do it.

Does any of your retort pertain to Hitler? Nope- just another 'fling'

What are you going to be posting if someone brings up some link between Vril or Thule and masonry?

What if there is no link?

What if one is just a smoke screen to take attention from one of the others?

Let's let the people that want to post some 'what ifs' and make spurious connections have some space. Let people explore and ramble instead of adherence to some arcane set of myth inspired precepts that you or someone else decides is proper.

How is it possible to deny ignorance when questions relating to knowledge are constantly herded? I don't see that it is possible.




Whenever someone starts an HONEST discussion about Freemasonry, all we do is participate like normal people.

Other than the recruiting threads, when is that- never! This is a conspiracy site- wake up. To discuss Girl Scouts, Masonry or any other 'groups' in a positive and non-accusatory manner this is not the place.

Who decides what is 'honest?'

Again, this thread is about Hitler and secret societies-



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
What accusations? Where's the negativity?


What me? Little ol' me? But I never dun nuffin' guvner.

I put it to you that ATS is exactly the place to have positive and non-accusatory discussions. The opposite of which is (yes, you guessed it) negative and accusatory, which is apparently the kind of discussion you like to have, by your own admission.

I'm here to correct inaccuracies about masonry. Since masons have been rolling back the vast tranches of ignorance about the fraternity there is, admittedly, less opportunity to tie the fraternity in to some of the global conspiracies which may or may not exist. I'm sorry if that disappoints you.

Some people posting to these threads don't like to be 'called' on their false assumptions. That's too bad. Until the lies dry up the corrections will continue. And they will continue in a positive and non-accusatory way, despite your dislike of that approach.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Let's let the people that want to post some 'what ifs' and make spurious connections have some space. Let people explore and ramble instead of adherence to some arcane set of myth inspired precepts that you or someone else decides is proper.

How is it possible to deny ignorance when questions relating to knowledge are constantly herded? I don't see that it is possible.


We are denying ignorance by correction people's false beliefs about Freemasonry, and givinng them true and honest information about the fraternity. We want to TEACH people, and show them that Freemasonry is not what they think it is. We do this by demonstrating that there is no evidence for their claims, and by presenting evidence to the contrary.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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O.K. Trinity and sebat, let's not split hairs.

You guys are in this thread for masonry, fair enough.

I'm not.

Eye, I read your links and the Vril connection seems a bit strained. I think more than a minimum amount of 'great inventions' are ascribed to the Nazis that the genious of the German people would have done without outside influence.

Taking the Thule for a moment (and your sources as a base), it seems that Julius Evola believes that Hitler initially (and therefore Nazism) was originally or at least foundationly supported by secret societies ("They are not thinking of influences of that kind [magic], but of a concrete nature, exercised by organizations that really existed, among which were some that to various degrees were "secret." ) then at some point Hitler broke with these forces (people) and led the Reich and much of the world to destruction.

This seems plausible.

Evola goes on to lay claim regarding the origin of the mytho surrounding the Nazi movement including its symbology to Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels a Cistercian monk (ex- I imagine). The publication Ostara would be interesting to find (in an English version for me although I can roughly translate German) as it supposedly continues a master race theme articulated by Liebenfels that greatly influenced Hitler.

Evola continues on to purport that the Thule society (linked to the Germanenorden ) was much more influential to the formation of the Nazi mytho. These two groups may be either the same or have enough similar (including members) so that the end result is substantially similar. From my brief readings of them both (*1) they are strikingly similar.

Tracy Twyman states that the Germanenorden became the Thule society. This group, among other things was anti-communist, capitalist, Christianity and mason while maintaining a racial superiority position. Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfels enter the story at this time by creating the Order of the New Templars(1907). All this supposedly was based (at least in part) on Nordic mytholgy as carried down in the Eddas. Enter Madam Helena Blavatsky. Much is written about her that will surely emerge later.

This group with the assistance of other nationalistic groups instituted a revolution in Munich (Bavaria) that failed. The ruling faction of the area was communist. The leaders of the revolt (putsch) were rounded up and executed. This gave birth to the foundations of what later became the Nazis. This mass execution took place on Walpurgisnacht (witches night).



www.dragonkeypress.com...
(Interview with Peter Lavenda- Unholy Alliance, cited above)

Thule was the land to the north, near the North Pole and mythically accessible through an underground passage *2,3.

sources not otherwise referenced
*1 Germanenorden
germanenorden.biography.ms...
www.objectsspace.com...
www.absoluteastronomy.com...
freemasonry.bcy.ca...
(Canadian masonry site- excellent footnotes)

Thule society
www.crystalinks.com...
www.cephasministry.com...
www.meta-religion.com...
www.freemasonrywatch.org...
(Freemasonry watch site)





*2 Adm. Bird
To be covered at another time- the polar explorations of Adm. Bird and his beliefs in an underground world.

*3 New Schwabenland
To be covered at another time- Antarctic Nazi base and American invasion.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 09:47 PM
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Eyeofhorus, some nice links you have there. Am I here to learn? I would have to say that is a fair question. Im here to gather information, process said information into plausable theories. Then yes, Im here to learn. Whats the old saying, truth is stanger than fiction? I would have to agree with that.

Now about masons. They seem to get away with bashing me to pieces and none of the mods say anything. I take one swipe at them and I can no longer learn. hmmmmmmmmm

Who would believe the truth about Hitler? Who could comprehend how he was gullable enough to listen to a bunch of occult, brainwashed, zombi actors. Who in thier right mind could believe that such a thing could happen. Who is able to open their mind threw the fog of fluoride, mercury, crack, booze??? Who could see this happening again today? History does repeat itself, now dosnt it!

As I stated in my previous reply, to know the mind of a nazi (WWII) you must understand the thule and the vrill societies. Agreed, when it comes to the south pole information, the ice does get thin. But when you take the other information concerning the north pole, the bigger picture starts to take shape.

I feel Hitler got rid of the masons because he found out that it was their organisation that was reponsible for hidding the occult (Hidden) information he was seeking. They refused to aid him, so they had to go!
Its not nice to be stingee with a dictator!



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 02:50 AM
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Originally posted by All Seeing Eye


I feel Hitler got rid of the masons because he found out that it was their organisation that was reponsible for hidding the occult (Hidden) information he was seeking. They refused to aid him, so they had to go!
Its not nice to be stingee with a dictator!






It is possible that the freemasons refused to go along with him, and he basically would have crushed them, as he did to most who stood in his way.

It is also possible then that he was afraid of what he didn't understand, and rather than waste his "precious" time researching them, he did the easy thing and just had them eliminated them from the equation alltogether. He understood that the masons would probably gain support and eventually become another obstacle for him to tackle, so he isolated them and nipped the problem in the butt.

You are a resilliant opponent to these masons, and it seems that everyone that is on your side bails out on you, leaving the masons to tear your ideas apart, looking for flaws in your wordings and ideas. The lack of credible evidence that is unique to your side of the argument is a tough battle for you to fight as well. Thanks to your posts there usually is some factual content generated within the discussion. Also, without your posts it would be a pretty boring and lame discussion, so why not, keep 'em coming.



[edit on 5-5-2005 by Eyeofhorus]



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by Eyeofhorus

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye

I feel Hitler got rid of the masons because he found out that it was their organisation that was reponsible for hidding the occult (Hidden) information he was seeking. They refused to aid him, so they had to go!
Its not nice to be stingee with a dictator!



It is possible that the freemasons refused to go along with him, and he basically would have crushed them, as he did to most who stood in his way.


Actually, Hitler, aside from being against ANY group of people that mee tin private and therefore could be plotting against him, was not a big fan of the ties to Judaism and the Kabbalah that Freemasonry's symbolism has. This was a big reason for his prosecution of Freemasons, I don't think it was just an excuse.



You are a resilliant opponent to these masons, and it seems that everyone that is on your side bails out on you, leaving the masons to tear your ideas apart, looking for flaws in your wordings and ideas. The lack of credible evidence that is unique to your side of the argument is a tough battle for you to fight as well. Thanks to your posts there usually is some factual content generated within the discussion. Also, without your posts it would be a pretty boring and lame discussion, so why not, keep 'em coming.


HAHAHA you are VERY correct. I've actually said the same thing MANY times! ASE presents WAY too many theories that have already been debunked millions of times, leaving him with no room to argue. Our rebuttals come swiftly and easily, and therefore ASE does US a big favor by showing everyone how absurd the theories that he posts actually are. But at least he does spark up good conversations sometimes.



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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Did any one read the post at the top of the page?

No?
Didn't think so.

Because it sure would have kept this thread on topic, and gave people a BETTER understanding of history.

Of course Hitler was going to publicly oppose the Freemasons, no one was allowed to keep secrets but the Nazis, so why does this come as a surprise?

World War II did not happen by accident, and to say it happened because of Hitler, that is Stupid. With a capital S. It was manipulated, and made to look that way, yes...



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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The Nazis Rise to Power was the result of a long planned operation against the German people.

It was planned by the Secret Societies that have infested Germany and England (starting with the Royal families and working down) since the 1600s (and much longer, in private).

They created the situation where the English were lied to about German actions in WWI, INCLUDING Eating Babies, and MANY welcomed the declaration of war.

When WWI started, people were told unequivocally that the things said about the Germans were true, but if enough people volunteered, "THEY WOULD ALL BE HOME BY CHRISTMAS"

The "common view was that it would be a short war of manoeuvre with a few sharp actions (to "teach the enemy a lesson") and would end with a victorious entry into the capital (the enemy capital, naturally) then home for a victory parade or two and back to "normal" life"

War was only declared August 14, so that meant by the time people heard about the fact that THEY would have to go, they thought of it as a chance to get out of the home, and see the world (something British citizens WERE NOT allowed to do! There were travel restrictions, not by accident either)

Tens of Thousands lined up with smiles on their faces, just to be sent to 4 years of hell, that they thought their government would do their best to KEEP THEM OUT of...

Recruiting drives were held By the Town, meaning, it was your duty to make sure your town contributed as many, or more, soldiers than the next town! Of course, the stupidity of the strategy was not made known until much later, that although these men would be fighting together, they would be taking orders from men who did not give a damn about them.

The story goes, when they landed at the Sonne (hmmm, German for Sun), it was 2 years in the making (training and preparing together) and
10 minutes in the destroying.

The fact that the war ended unresolved is SPELLED-out in the Peace Treaty, signed on 11/11/18, at 11:11. 11 is incomplete, it is one short of perfection.

So that is 3 pairs of 11, the month and day, the day and hour, and the hour and minute.

So that would predict the next war would have to include some 3 pairs of 11s, right? And so, to end World War II, the 33rd President waited for 33 days after July 4, 13 squared (169) years after 1776, and dropped Atomic Bomb on Mission 13, on the
33 degree on Hiroshima!

Then, on August 13, it was all over...

"I like how most talk like the Nazi where something New and no longer Exist and arnt still part of the Brotherhood"

They aren't new, they didn't lose ('cept how they planned to), and all the key personnel (scientists, engineers, business men) formed key parts of the Brotherhood for the last 60 years.

Think about it, people, the Queen Mother was born Aug. 4, 1900. 14 years later, to the day, Great Britain declares war (World War I).

The end to World War II came on Aug 15, 1945. The date is important because it adds up to 33, but also because of its similarity to the day the INITIAL conflict started, August 4th. In fact, 11 days is the difference, and we all know the significance of 11, and the first World War...



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