I remember reading about Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, the "inventors" of communism, being not only Masons but with very high degrees. Furthermore they got the order from even higher degrees to write their works to initiate a new movement among the working class people. Thus divided, those people would have been controlled easier (old masonic as well as machiavellistic saying "divide and rule") and would fight against each other (left wing vs. right wing) instead of working together against the higher classes or the government. As a result there have been, as anybody knows, two parties worldwide and a front between them, which suited the military industry just fine (as well as a lot of other industries), because the competition between them pushed the economies.
Does anybody have more details about that speculation? Does it seem possible to you? And isn't there a similarity to the division of the world today, Western world against Muslim world? Therefore the "War against terror" just a substitute for the "Cold war"? (besides oil, please don't discuss oil here!)

Originally posted by new_falcon_XXI
I remember reading about Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, the "inventors" of communism, being not only Masons but with very high degrees.

Where?

Furthermore they got the order from even higher degrees to write their works to initiate a new movement among the working class people.

Marx and Engels, masons or not, didn't just come up with that stuff as a plot. Communism, or something like it, was brewing in europe. "Dialectical Materialism', also, I don't see any connection with masonry there, nor is marxist historical analysis 'masonic' or anything like that.

Thus divided, those people would have been controlled easier (old masonic as well as machiavellistic saying "divide and rule")

When did the masons make that saying?

and would fight against each other (left wing vs. right wing) instead of working together against the higher classes or the government.

Marxism is all about fighting people in the higher classes. If masonry is something that is restricted to the elite (not saying it is), then they'd be anti-communist, they'd be the very targets of communism.

How exactly was the 'plot' supposed to work? Get two academics to publish these social/anthopological/historical/political/economic theories, and then 'trick' people into overthrowing the local power elites and engaging in a global struggle against all elites??? I mean, in order for it to work, marx, engles, lenin, stalin, trotsky, mao, the commies who siezed Munich, all of them'd've to be masonic agents. Heck, the Mensheviks and white russians even would have to be masons no? And why not masonic support for communist groups elsewhere? Once the 'movement' gets out of their hands, its going to be thier biggest enemy.

Does it seem possible to you?

It seems just barely, barely, possible, but also completely improbable.

And isn't there a similarity to the division of the world today, Western world against Muslim world?

Anytime there are two camps it'd look like that.

Tho the jihadis do sprout rhetoric that is very similar to communism, as did the nazis, and as did/do the arab nationalists, 'struggle against the imperialistic monied powers', etc etc.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Freemasonry sowed the seeds of the first democracy, not a failed social pogrom.
try
For extra credit though, please define "very high degrees" and "even higher degrees."

Seriously. In France, Germany, and the United States, Freemasons have continuously worked against the established regimes for independence of the people. Why would they all of a sudden want to establish communism. It makes no sense. And "divide and conquer" has no relationship to ANY masonic sayings.

And by the way, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS UPPER ECHELONS OF FREEMASONRY. IT IS A FRATERNITY, THEREFORE EVERYONE IS EQUAL, NOBODY TAKES ORDERS, BECAUSE NOBODY GIVES ORDERS!!!

Get over it...

The problem is, I really forgot where I read it and it was some time ago. It's been a website about conspiracies too, though. That's why I wanted to know whether anybody knows the plot, maybe those people who wrote it have been a little too weird...
I do not know much about masonry, that's the second reason why I'm asking. But I read some works of R.A. Wilson, and as much as I remember he said something about the masons are interested in spreading chaos, because in chaotic times the people would listen and follow their leaders for getting back security and order in their lifes, regardless what the leaders would tell them, good or bad.
I didn't mean that all the communist leaders were masons, but the initiation came from them. But of course the whole idea existed before Marx and Engels, they only wrote it down and made a manifesto. Still, even if it seems very improbable, I would like to read other opinions!

Originally posted by new_falcon_XXI
The problem is, I really forgot where I read it and it was some time ago. It's been a website about conspiracies too, though. That's why I wanted to know whether anybody knows the plot, maybe those people who wrote it have been a little too weird...
I do not know much about masonry, that's the second reason why I'm asking. But I read some works of R.A. Wilson, and as much as I remember he said something about the masons are interested in spreading chaos, because in chaotic times the people would listen and follow their leaders for getting back security and order in their lifes, regardless what the leaders would tell them, good or bad.
I didn't mean that all the communist leaders were masons, but the initiation came from them. But of course the whole idea existed before Marx and Engels, they only wrote it down and made a manifesto. Still, even if it seems very improbable, I would like to read other opinions!

You need to get that idea (that masons want to take over the world and control people) out of your head. Freemasons aren't looking for power, we are just looking to make our lives and the lives of those we care about better through charity, freedom and justice.



[edit on 2-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

And just about the time you think you've heard it all something else comes outa the woodwork.