The conspiracy against the gods

I think you've brought up a good point, madmanacrosswater. The fear of God is a puzzling concept, even for new Christians because Hebrews 4:16 says: “Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need” and 2 Timothy 1:7 "For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline."

I think the right perspective on fear is when people say the phrase - God the Father. Now, if you've had a benevolent biological father, then the concept is pretty easy. Since you love dad, you don't want to disappoint or dishonour him in any way because he has been so loving and giving for you. God is the same way. I fear that I will do something to make him unhappy or represent him in some way that is not Him. This is not a constant worry/fear like being afraid the cops are going to pull you over because you're speeding, or that you'll get fired for goofing off at work. Rather, I respect God for all he is, being all good so I want to be a part of His family. Yes, God has wrath, but no, people aren't forced into following him for it. Don't believe me? Read that Old Testament.

Where did God come from? Revelation 1:8 "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End', says the Lord God, ‘the being who was and who is to come -- the Almighty." What does that mean? That means we don't understand time as much as we think we do. Show me how far infinity is. I cannot, you cannot, but God can. That's why he's God, by definition. I know we all want to pick apart God to see what makes him tick, but that's because we want to prove to ourselves that we're smarter, better, etc. which is simply not the case. If we ask God for something and do not get it, it's probably because we do not have the proper motivation in our asking. Something to think about in our next prayer request. The good news is James 1:5, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." Seek wisdom, not selfish desires. You'll be surprised that in wisdom is an even greater gift.


[edit on 4-5-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by truthseekaDoes this mean that the god of the Bible has been perpetuating a conspiracy against the other gods? Was the 1st commandment his way of turning people against the other gods? Does this suggest that he is about the same, power-wise, as the other gods becaue he couldn't just destroy them, thus guaranteeing (is that a word?

) that all would worship him?

You might say it was the God of The Bible perpetuating the conspiracy, but evidence points elsewhere...to Moses and his father-in-law who, seeing Moses judging the people one at a a time on a daily basis, advises him to teach them new laws and ordinances. So Moses trudges up into the mountain and returns with exactly what Jethro suggested. These were in fact nothing more than a constitution and enforced under the guise of one god not several.

It took a very long time for Israel to finally accept just one god, which one notices if they pay attention to the progression of the Israelites. Contrary to what most believe was the underlying reason for the Exodus; God's pact with Abraham, the two part conspiracy lies in the fact that thousands of the pilgrims left Egypt as polytheists and continued to be polytheists until Moses slaughtered them all. Even then the belief kept surfacing from those days well into the days of Isaiah. Abraham obviously did not do a very good Job of fostering a one god philosophy. Moses' God did not state that he was the one and only god, in fact, he supposedly told Moses that he was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, so what happened to Noah and even Adam's god? Further, the commandment states that he is "thy God which brought thee out of the land of Egypt;" in other words, the God Moses worshipped. He clearly stated that "thou shalt have no other gods before me, not that there are no other gods but me. he demanded they not serve other gods, where other gods cannot be served if they do not exist, and claimed to be jealous of what idols?

The second conspiracy is in how the story was relayed throughout the centuries, which suggests that these people were slaves in Egypt numbering in the tens of thousands and when pharoah decided to give them leave, their Egyptian masters and neighbours willingly "lent" them hordes of gold, silver, precious gems, utensils, and farm animals. Where exactly were these slaves housed that they had Egyptian neighbours, and why would God grant the Egyptians favour to do this, but play hard and fast with pharoah? On top of which, the Israelites melted all the gold and silver and turned them into articles honouring God by his command, never to return these goods. (There is an interesting story about this concerning a trial during Roman times.)

Thanks for the great post, Somewhere.

I can't say that everything you posted is true, but at the same time I give you props for posting an insightful response. I had read on a website that Moses was a killer, but I took that with a grain of salt. I have heard that the Israelites were polytheistic for a minute, though.

The way the 1st commandment reads, to me anyway, suggests that there are multiple gods. And, you have a point about Moses being the possible source of the conspiracy, but doesn't the Bible maintain that God gave the laws to Moses? So, it would be God that came up with this 1st law, no? I would think that they wouldn't have lasted as long if it was thought that Moses came up with these laws.

So, pretending that there are actually multiple gods for a minute, does this statement mean that they all are about equal in power?

And, as for the fear of God thing, I have to disagree.

We have all heard the phrase "God-fearing Christian." If Christians aren't supposed to fear God, why is this phrase so widespread?

Originally posted by truthseeka
And, as for the fear of God thing, I have to disagree.

*shrugs*

Originally posted by truthseeka
We have all heard the phrase "God-fearing Christian." If Christians aren't supposed to fear God, why is this phrase so widespread?

I didn't say Christians should not fear God, I was trying to offer perspective as to how we should fear God based on the information we're given. A lot of people think we should fear Him like He's some kind of psychotic killer, and He's not. That's not who He is. He's the father. The phrase "God-fearing Christian" means someone you can trust not to commit any malicious sins against God like killing, stealing, lying, etc. Fear can protect you. If you stand at the edge of a building, you should feel fear that there will be consequences to your actions.


[edit on 4-5-2005 by saint4God]

A very interesting topic. I'm afraid I'm not as well versed as I should be, but I do believe that the bible makes reference to there being other Gods.
This history of the "Fertile Crescent" and the peoples/beliefs that existed there is fascinating, I'd like to here more on this issue.

This need not be a religion-bashing session. History is history.

Somewhere just got another vote from me - I think he's been getting one from me every month. That's pretty pale gratitude for his insight and knowledge and his talent for summarizing the facts into a very readable format.

Anyway, as SiB cited, Moses goes up on this mountain by hisownself and comes down with some laws. Somewhere along the line (I won't blame it on Moses but,) somebody relates the story as God gave these to Moses (twice, actually). Anyway, they were good laws and very cleverly written - with the very first one being that "Moses' God is the best so pay no attention to these other Gods".

Sidebar: Christianity used this same model over and over with stuff like "if anybody tells you this story is not true, they are liars and angels of Satan". It's one helluva clever device, huh?!

The thing is, according to our story, there was nobody (no other human) up there with Moses so, we have to take Moses at his word - he was a natural leader of the people so, they did. If he said that his God gave him these laws then, it must be true. Right? hmmmmm....

OK, so clearly, there is an acknowledgement of other Gods but, if you are a follower of Moses, you are required to recognize his God as the #1 God. Of course, if you don't then Moses will smite your ass! Nobody much wants to get smited so, OK, we'll go with Moses' God for now.

[edit on 4-5-2005 by Al Davison]

Originally posted by saint4God
If you stand at the edge of a building, you should feel fear that there will be consequences to your actions.
[edit on 4-5-2005 by saint4God]

True dat, but I would hope that you would be smart enough to know that falling off a building ain't the best thing in the world to do.

I understand your POV now on God-fear; you did a good job of making your point. My hat goes off to you.

Al Davidson, I have to agree with you on the excuse thing.

I was talking to some Christians about the explanation for miraculous things that happen to people of other faiths. Guess what the response was; those were works of the Devil!

My bad for getting off track, but I had to add that. And, you're right, Somewhere did make some good points.

[edit on 4-5-2005 by truthseeka]

The bible may be interpreted in thousands of ways, it is a very flexible text I may say. But interpreting that there are many gods and that Jehova made a conspiracy against them is very interesting, what were you thinking when you read the bible?

Originally posted by truthseeka
I understand your POV now on God-fear; you did a good job of making your point. My hat goes off to you.

Thanks! Much appreciated friend. The willingness to understand is the gateway to wisdom. Compliments are even more rare!

[edit on 4-5-2005 by saint4God]

Nice thread to start. As for it being a conspiracy of a god, or a man, I can't definitively say. As one moderator pointed out, early israellites were polytheistic despite their claims to the contrary.The same mod however said that Christianity is monotheistic, when it is in fact not. Everyone knows that Christians worhip the father, the son, and the holy spirit. That is three, not one.Sorry....anyways

Yes there was a conspiracy as to which God would reign supreme, but (IMHO)it was a conspiracy, and a battle between priests and others within the learned caste at the time. The old testament is a chronicle of many peoples, and many Gods, and the battle for one to reign supreme.

Jahweh was the cannanite God of Thunder, Deserts and War. The israellites attribute the success of their exodus to him. When they settled in cannan however they encountered fertility cults Baal, (symbolized by the bull), and others remembered from time spent in Egypt, that they turned to for worship. This is the very description even given in the old testament, of moses coming down from the mountain to find his people had made a golden calf.

For more info look into Baal, Jahweh, Jehovah, Ashtoreth, and other early cannanite deities , etc.....
www.cresourcei.org...

For the "biblical" test of Baal , and what happened to her followers please see 1 Kings 18:21-40

www.biblegateway.com...:21-40;&version=9;

Maybe not a conspiracy by God to other Gods, hmm this doesn't make sense.. But There are truly Gods of this world, in Hinduisim there are thousands of God and they all work... In African religion there are thousands of Gods and they all seem to work, Maybe it is the one true God but in fforms? This is my take.

Thank you and you are welcome. There is nothing I posted that was not true, such that Ex. 18 is your reference point for Jethro, while Ex. 11 speaks to the borrowing of the booty, and as for the length of time it took for the one God to prevail, for that you can refer to Isaiah 48.. In response to some of your questions:

Moses was a killer yes, in a madman kind of way? Maybe, but he was no different I suppose to many rulers of those days. The one difference being that we are led to believe he slaughtered his own people. You can refer to Ex 32:27-slaughtered 3,000 idolaters. Then God supposedly took matters into his own hands later and followed suit with the followers of 250 princes. Princes from slaves while roaming the desert? NU16:30.

Originally posted by truthseekabut doesn't the Bible maintain that God gave the laws to Moses? So, it would be God that came up with this 1st law, no? I would think that they wouldn't have lasted as long if it was thought that Moses came up with these laws.

Yes, The Bible does maintain this, does it make it so? Could Moses have known that a number of places he named and wrote about were in fact names of the future; for example, UR; Dan: Asshur: Gaza, to name but a handful, or that he could even write about his own burial? And how long exactly does it take to engrave 5 books onto stone, when it took 40 days to engrave 10 laws?

There is no pretending there were multiple Gods, worshipped that is, because they were. These people hailed from Egypt and all they would have been indoctrinated into would be Egyptian religious practices, especially as slaves. Such that the molten calf was the worship of the Apis Bull, while the worship of the snake rod Moses made was yet another, either Apophis or a new god.

The elaborately built Tel-Armana site was under the guidance of Akhenaten the pharaoh who moved to promote the god Aten and declare him superior to all others, while pronouncing this edict all over the walls of Abydos and demanding that Aten, and Aten alone be revered. For some as yet unknown reason, Akhenaten left town and built that large city in the desert which was dedicated solely to Aten, with the one and only liason with him being Akhenaten himself. It is this site where we find the oldest known Mezuzzahs on doorposts basically giving the very same acknowledgement to Aten as the Mezzuzah of today save for the name and a few redactions. You will find that order by Moses in Deut. 6:9. Akhenaten’s site was mysteriously destroyed and abandoned about 25 years later, looted, plundered with much of the stone work removed to complexes built by Rameses II.

Both Moses and Akhenaten fall into the same timeline. Coincidence?



[edit on 5/4/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Both Moses and Akhenaten fall into the same timeline. Coincidence?
[edit on 5/4/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

None but few even know let alone will admit to the origins of judaism lying within the halls of Egypt. If modern scholars were to do that, then they would have to entertain the idea of an African Moses, which would have ties to Egyptian theology, due to their(the jews) time in bondage.(see enuma elish)

Ahkenaten was the first person to worship one god, even if it was the sun...........He is still the great-grand-father of monotheism!!!

Nice correlation though, few outside of the African Israelites would dare mention that claim......Kudos to you sir!!!!

Originally posted by crusader
Maybe it is the one true God but in fforms?

If that's the case, then why would God have a problem with other forms of himself? He's pretty explicit in many passages saying He wants us to worship only him, not Baal, the ancient egyptian gods, etc.
God doesn't say, "go ahead and worship it as long as it's called good", he says "You shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:2-3). Now I wasn't there when God said this in Exodus, but I can tell you even after four-thousand plus years, I still feel that slap. Yes, I was follower of god-money, god-lust, god-depression, and god-ego just to name a few. Bye bye other gods, the boss is back in town.

[edit on 5-5-2005 by saint4God]

Excellent point about the Akhenaten/Moses parallel!

excerpted from www.heptune.com...
"Akhenaten's religious revolution
The nature of Akhenaten's revolution is well established--he overthrew Egyptian polytheism in favor of the worship of a single god, Aten--but the reason behind it is still unknown. Many people have offered theories.
When historians first began to study Akhenaten carefully, in the late 1800s, the first thing that naturally came to everyone's mind was that Akhenaten was divinely inspired. However, it does not seem likely that Akhenaten simply decided out of the blue to make such a major change. Many early historians, determined to link Akhenaten's religion somehow to the Jewish religion, said that he was inspired by Joseph or Moses (Redford, p. 4, 1984). This is a possibility, considering that Joseph, at least, was around in roughly the same time period as Akhenaten. However, after close examination of Akhenaten's religion, this hypothesis seems unlikely. Akhenaten's religion did center on one god, but his major emphasis was on the Aten's visibility, tangibility, and undeniable realness. Akhenaten placed no emphasis, therefore, on faith.
According to John Tuthill, a professor at the University of Guam, Akhenaten's reasons for his religious reform were political. By the time of Akhenaten's reign, the god Amen had risen to such a high status that the priests of Amen had become even more wealthy and powerful than the pharaohs. However, Barbara Mertz argued that Akhenaten and his courtiers would not have easily perceived this (Mertz, 1966, p. 269). Still, this theory remains as a possibility to be considered.
It may be that Akhenaten was influenced by his family members, particularly his wife or mother (Dunham, 1963, p. 4; Mertz, 1966, p. 269). There was a certain trend in Akhenaten's family towards sun-worship. Towards the end of the reign of Akhenaten's father, Amenhotep III, the Aten was depicted increasingly often.
Some historians have suggested that the same religious revolution would have happened even if Akhenaten had never become pharaoh at all. However, considering the violent reaction that followed shortly after Akhenaten's untimely death, this seems improbable.
The reasons for Akhenaten's revolution still remain a mystery. Until further evidence can be uncovered, it will be impossible to know just what motivated his unusual behavior. "