Tanks

Originally posted by KozzyThe answer to this question can be found in Thunder Run. The Abrams carries 11,000 rounds of 7.62mm ammo, more then double any other tank. Even with this massive supply of ammo, they were still running out on the thunder run. The Abrams can place a 5 round burst on target at 800mm, enough to kill any person.(I can do it at 1400mm in Steel Beasts). You wouldn't be able to carry nearly as much 40mm rounds, their increased lethality doesn't outweigh the lack of ammo. Any target that can't be engaged with the machine guns can just be killed with an MPAT.

I can certainly see your point. As they say, ametuers study tactics, professionals study logistics. On the other hand, but in urban scenarios where being strafed by chain-gun armed vehicles is a concern it would seem like you'd be able to put rounds on target much faster from a machine gun than from the main gun, which would be a crucial factor in preventing incidents like that suggested by lucretus. I suppose that with logistics in mind there are better answers thoug- Namely combined arms. I'm guessing that a shorter-barreled weapon (such as the 25mm on an LAV) might be faster getting on target, and in urban combat it would be preferable to lead with infantry anyway I suppose. So yeah, I guess my opinion can definately be swayed on this matter. I should have thought of the ammo concern myself.

Well against vehicles like the BMP, a 40mm HE grenade isn't going to do much. I'd much rather blow it to # with an MPAT and be done with it then plunking it with 40mm until I think it's dead. Against technicals, the 7.62mm and .50 work just fine. They killed like 50 suicide cars in the THunder Run.

Not much, they have a relatively small warhead. The TOW-2B utilizes a top attack EFP warhead. When the missile is over the tank, the warhead shoots down into the tank's weakest armor, at the top. The armor there is barely over an inch thick so it doesn't take much at all.

Cant a tank round hit the same spot?

and the merkava has a mortar in/on it, so that could also destroy an Abram then, right?

could you draw me a pic of where that area is located exactly please?

A mortar doesn't have any penetrating ability. It just throws shrapnel, which doesn't penetrate much. Mortars are also not very accurate weapons.

The only way that one tank can attack another from the top is if commanding a higher position or using a missile.

Originally posted by 187onu

Not much, they have a relatively small warhead. The TOW-2B utilizes a top attack EFP warhead. When the missile is over the tank, the warhead shoots down into the tank's weakest armor, at the top. The armor there is barely over an inch thick so it doesn't take much at all.

Cant a tank round hit the same spot?

and the merkava has a mortar in/on it, so that could also destroy an Abram then, right?

could you draw me a pic of where that area is located exactly please?

No, a conventional tank round cannot hit the same spot. There are however developments to design one that can do this.

It's the roof of the tank, I can't get any more specific then this.

[edit on 8-5-2005 by Kozzy]

like the top of the turrent and/or just before that (there is a flat area)!

anyway very interesting, thanks for all your input !

is there anything we've missed so far concerning tank penatration?




is this pic correct?




[edit on 8-5-2005 by 187onu]

[edit on 8-5-2005 by 187onu]

What about jsut sheer Kinetic enery, in the form of non directed explosives?

Is anybody else getting just a little curious about our friend's curiousity about weaknesses in American tanks? Didn't Homeland Security set out to crucify a soldier a couple years back for discussing that same information online?
I'm not suggesting that you are a terrorist, I'm only saying that you can't trust the D'ohs oops i mean DoHS to know the difference.

There we go again...

Yea I forgot to put the Kinetic energy!

I'm not suggesting that you are a terrorist, I'm only saying that you can't trust the D'ohs oops i mean DoHS to know the difference.

Then WTF ARE YOU SAYING?










[edit on 8-5-2005 by 187onu]

[edit on 8-5-2005 by 187onu]

You're welcome!

(Sorry, couldn't resist....)

-koji K.

[edit on 8-5-2005 by koji_K]

The top of the turret. An engine hit would be disabling as well.

Originally posted by Kozzy

Posted by Lucretious
sure, we were at a stop point. we had been up and awake for 48hours. so we tried to get a little rest. maybe a hour or two. it was around 05:00 we were near a built up area with some oil industry stuff. A BMP-2 had been hiding around the terminal buildings. The BMP-2 engaged a Abrams at around 100-200 meters with his 30MM. The Abrams main gun , BATTERIES/POWER-PACK , primary site , wind sensor were destroyed. the crew was fine but the tank was "mission killed"

I have a real hard time believing this. What forum did you hear this on? Are you sure he's the real deal.

Same here, For some reason this just doesn't ring true. Where is the link to this supposed quote ?
Lets face it this isn't the first time you've been pulled up on highly suspect information.



[edit on 9-5-2005 by rogue1]

You're welcome!

(Sorry, couldn't resist....)

-koji K.

what the hell are you talking about?

[edit on 9-5-2005 by 187onu]

Originally posted by rogue1


I have a real hard time believing this. What forum did you hear this on? Are you sure he's the real deal.

Same here, For some reason this just doesn't ring true. Where is the link to this supposed quote ?
Lets face it this isn't the first time you've been pulled up on highly suspect information.



[edit on 9-5-2005 by rogue1]

I have already PM'd kozzy the link... if you like send me a PM and I will reply

Originally posted by 187onu

You're welcome!

(Sorry, couldn't resist....)

-koji K.

what the hell are you talking about?

[edit on 9-5-2005 by 187onu]

It was a reference to the name of this thread....

Originally posted by 187onu

I'm not suggesting that you are a terrorist, I'm only saying that you can't trust the D'ohs oops i mean DoHS to know the difference.

Then WTF ARE YOU SAYING?

I'm saying that asking more than once for specifics on where to hit an Abrams could give people the wrong idea, and our law enforcement services have a proud history of getting the wrong idea about almost everything. Just a friendly heads up. I'm not pointing any fingers myself.

first of all, SCREW them.

2nd, this isn't ONLY for the Abrams its for ALL tanks in general!!
this would and will and DOES work on all tanks.

Kozzy, I ran into a problem when I was out with my 'el queda friends shooting tanks ......(you almost got us killed )

ALL of these tanks;

Abram M1-A2
T-80
T-90
T-98
Challenger 2
Merkava 4
Leopard 2A6
Leclerc


have front 45c or more angles (facing backworks), so it would be near impossible to hit the lower hall facing it?!
and since the front armor is to strong for a round to penatrade it the first second or maybe third time, according to what you said, that they Abram would kill the T90/T98/T80 on its first round, it seems that they dont stand a change! I forgot why that is btw...since it cannot be hitten on the lower hull if Im not mistaken!

I would rate India's Arjun MBT much higher. Although it had some problems in development, all of it has been fixed and 124 have been ordered of which around 20 have been delivered.

Crew: 4 (Commander, Gunner, Loader & Driver).

Combat Weight: 58,500 kg (58.5 tonnes).

Power-to-Weight Ratio: 23.93 hp/ton.

Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2.

Length: 10.194 metres.

Width: 3.847 metres.

Height: 2.32 metres.

Ground Clearance: 0.45 metres.

Maximum Speed: 72 km/h (45 mph) - road.
.......................40 km/h (25 mph) - cross-country.

Maximum Range: Un-refuelled range in combat; 450 km (280 miles) - estimate.

Maximum Fuel Capacity: 1610 litres.

Gradient: 77º.

Slide Slope: 40%.

Vertical Obstacle: 0.9 metres.

Trench Crossing: 2.43 metres.

Shallow Fording: 1.4 metres.

Engine: Prototype variants are fitted with a MTU 838 Ka-501 (from Germany) 10-cylinder, liquid-cooled, diesel producing 1400 hp @ 2400 RPM. Production variants will reportedly be fitted with a locally-designed engine developing 1500 hp.

Transmission: Prototype variants have a semi-automatic transmission (from Germany) with 4 forward and 2 reverse gears. Renk Epicyclic with hydrodynamic torque converter. Production variants will have a locally designed semi-automatic transmission, hydrodynamic torque converter, retarder and integral system.

Suspension: Hydro-pneumatic. The aluminium alloy rubberised track blocks have rubber-bushed pins, the track tensioners have a built-in overload protection.

Steering: Double radii, mechanical steering with neutral turn.

Brakes: Hydraulically operated high performance disc brake that is incorporated into the final drive.

Electrical System: Not known.

Armament: 1 x 120mm rifle bore, electro-slag refined main gun with 39 rounds (HE, HEAT, HESH, APFSDS and smoke).
...............1 x 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine gun with 1000 rounds - estimate.
...............1 x 7.62mm co-axial machine gun with 3000* rounds - estimate.

Fire Control System: Bharat Electronics AL-4421 Mk.1B Digital FCS.

Turret Power Control: Electro-Hydraulic / Manual.

Gun Elevation/Depression: +20/-10º.

Gun Stabiliser: Vertical / Horizontal.

Rangefinder: Laser from Barr & Stroud Ltd., with a reported range of 10 km.

Smoke Grenade Launchers: Nine forward-firing smoke grenade discharges, mounted on either side of the turret, with the upper layer having five tubes and the lower layer having four.

Projected Variants: Engineer Tank
..........................Artillery Support
..........................Observation Post Vehicle
..........................Armoured Recovery Vehicle
..........................Air Defence (Gun or Missile)
..........................Armoured Vehicle Launched Bridge

Features of the Arjun Mk.1 MBT

The integrated digital fire control system installed in the Arjun Mk.1 MBT consists of a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal imaging night sight, meteorological sensor, stabilised panoramic sight for the tank commander, stand-by (articulated) sighting telescope, GPS and an electronic gate to ensure a first round hit probability. The third generation director type, fire control system with a 120mm gun electronically slaved to the sights, enables the gunner to locate, identify, track, range and engage moving targets while its moving. This gives a high first round hit probability. The gunner's main sight consists of a day sight, thermal sight, laser rangefinder and stabilised head common, to all three channels. The common sighting head mirror is stabilised in elevation and azimuth. The day sight has dual magnification while the thermal imager provides a night vision facility to the gunner and the commander to observe and engage targets under conditions of total darkness and smoke. The laser rangefinder is integral with the gunner's sight.

The panoramic sight enables the commander to effect an all-round surveillance on the battlefield without moving his eyes from the sight and without being disturbed by the motion of the turret. The field of view is stabilised with the help of a two-axis rate gyro mounted on the platform of the head mirror. The sight has dual magnification. The ballistic computer, computes the gun laying data based on information provided by a number of sensors mounted in the vehicle and on manual inputs and provides the signals corresponding to the tangent elevation and azimuth offset. To increase the accuracy of the firing, the fire control system has a coincidence window that allows firing of the main armament only when it reaches the desired position as dictated by the computer. The 120mm rifled gun will fire APFSDS (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot), HESH (High-Explosive Squash Head), HE (High-Explosive), HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) and smoke rounds. A special 120mm anti-helicopter round is under development as well. All 120mm rounds use a semi combustible cartridge case.

The 120mm rifled gun is made of ESR steel and is fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. The thermal sleeve prevents irregular temperature distribution on to the tube due to the weather influences. A new high energy propellant is used in the 120mm rifled gun to give a higher muzzle velocity and therefore greater penetration characteristics. A 7.62mm machine gun is coaxial with the main armament and a 12.7mm AA machine gun is fitted for anti-aircraft defence.

The Arjun MBTs will also have a new composite laminate armour called Kanchan in addition to the ERA tiles. The tank also has a NBC (Nuclear-Biological-Chemical) system and a night vision device built by IRDE. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection & suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in water tight containers to reduce the risk of fire.

The Arjun might be converted into a 155 mm self-propelled howitzer by fitting the South African T6 turret which has the G5 howitzer fitted.

Pics :

One question:

If the Arjun's exhaust gets clogged with say mud, wont that eventually make the tank stop?