Preparing your children to avoid the draft

Originally posted by Vanguard
What does a 9 year old child know of war - Infact what does a cowardly anti war protestor who positioned their child as a political pawn at an anti war rally know of war.

What does a 9 year old child know of religion? Yet people raise thier kids to believe in a certain set of ideas, ideas that thier parents share, that their parents force upon their children. When the children grow older, they choose whether to remain believing what their parents believe, or something else. How is raising your kid to be a CO any different than raising him to be a christian, hindu, or muslim? Or is it ok only force certain beliefs upon your children?

only those who serve can vote? youve lost your marbles lol

so basically alot of new citizens- people from forign nations originally; whom came over to USA for a better future; then joined the military,
are the only ones who can vote from now on???

ya great idea lets burn the constitution and the bill of rights and not let any of our citizens vote anymore unless they murder other people

great plan
Not...

Just a question here. If a family only has one child, and that child is a son....can they draft him into the military? I didn't think so.....but would like to hear from someone that knows.

Thanks,
Faeryland

I certainly can see the benefit of instilling a righteous and honest belief system as important - whether religion answers this call is debateable.

What i believe is wrong is instilling a selfish and lazy values system which ultimatly results in weak, passive and unproductive behavior.

BTW - at the moment there is no draft in the United States - there are just about enough brave and selfless people.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by Vanguard]

Faeryland says:

"Just a question here. If a family only has one child, and that child is a son....can they draft him into the military? I didn't think so.....but would like to hear from someone that knows."

Well, inasmuch as there is no draft, your question as it stands right now is irrelevant. However, in all past drafts, there was never an exemption for a "sole son" or "the ability to carry on the family name".

That partkicular myth probably arose from the law that changed during WWII about having more than one brother in a particular unit or on a single ship.

My guess is that, if we re-instated the draft, everyone of a particular age group would be eligible, even if you were the only son (or daughter).

Originally posted by Faeryland
Just a question here. If a family only has one child, and that child is a son....can they draft him into the military? I didn't think so.....but would like to hear from someone that knows.

Thanks,
Faeryland

No, they cannot be drafted. In fact, they can choose not to go into combat even if they are in already. When my unit was going to Iraq, only sons had the option of filling out some forms so they wouldn't have to be deployed.

Originally posted by longbow
Draft is really not best solution, it's not good for military too to force someone to fight. I agree with Heinlein in this matter - draft is immoral and all soldiers should be volunteers, but who does not serve in military/national guard/other federal service will not have right to vote. Simple and effective.

agree with heinlein? interesting that you think so.it was my understanding after reading the book and seeing the movie that he was makeing a statement on how wrong that would be. you can not alow only SOME PEOPLE TO VOTE. especialy when you would limmit those eligible to vote on whether or not you enlist in military service. all that would be achived by only alowing ex-military (remember that in this work, active personell were also not alowed to vote). is to make sure that war becomes a way of life. that would be very bad indeed. also the last line in i believe it was the movie, "mabe we shouldn't have attacked the bugs" or words to that effect. that seems to point out that that entire mess was CAUSED by warmongering due to only those being ex-military being alowed to vote.

also it was stated by cole that these co's would "be so brainwashed" that they would not even defend their homeland. i think that yes some people will not even fight then, but the majority would help to defend their homeland whatever it took. includeing riseing up against a dictatership of said homeland.

the major problem with a draft is the inability to make a moral decision about a conflict. take this war in iraq as an example. many people think that it is a non-just war, a war of agression, not a "war for peace". why should someone who feels this way willing to serve in it's acomplishement? now in ww2 there was a definate fight for freedom. everyone was INVITED (in fact begged), to help stop the natzis from takeing over. the same can be said of "operation desert shield", eevryone was begged to stop the military takeover of a country. this was a DEFENSIVE war. all that was done was to throw the iraqies back home to their homeland. where as to compare iraq of today is an agressive war. iraq a sovern nation, (yes sadam was a dictater, yes there were some internal problems, yes it is very likely that he had wmd's, in fact it was not a "nice country") but they were not actualy attacking anyone outside their borders at the time.

this was a "preemptive strike", that is a strike BEFORE thgere was a real problem. or at least that is how it was stated to try not to be thought of as a war of agression. so if a draft is called there is bound to be a lot of negitiveity to it. that is the big thing. many would not have a problem with a defensive type war to "SAVE" a country, but this was an attack without a valid reason for the attack. in short it IS A WAR OF AGRESSION. ther is not a nation being defended. it was a military take over of a sovern nation. this is what many object to. the us is suppost to be "the GOOD GUYS", but they are showing an agressive stance in this case. in the war against iraq they have become "THE BAD GUYS".

how many here have continuasly stated that the christion religion is bad because of things like the inquisition and the CRUSADES? what was the crusades? the crusades were a war to "free" the holy land from the infidels. it was a war to turn the land to christianity. now we have a war to install "democracy" to a region, IT IS THE SAME THING. so in reality lets call this the DEMOCRACY CRUSADE. instead of converting a land to a religion, it is a war to convert a land to a type of government. in the end it is the same thing. so how many would agree that fighting a religious war is right? if that is wrong how can a war to change a type of government be any better? WE ARE FORCEING IDEALS on people by force in both cases.

how many people have stated that the new pope should never have been pope due to his serving in the german army of ww2? that this made him a "natzi"? are some of these the same people who would call co's chickens, and cowards, that should be delt with acordingly? i hope not because then they are showing how much of a hipicrate that they are. in reality this war has the american people playing the "natzis". they instigated the war. and we can even equate the burning of the reichstag, to the events on 9-11. that was the "catalyst" that alowed the start of this war of agression just as the natzis used the reichstag burning to start off ww2.

Curme says:

"No, they cannot be drafted. In fact, they can choose not to go into combat even if they are in already."

Go to www.snopes.com... for the truth.

Or, to check out the same information on the Selective Service website, go to www4.sss.gov...

"When my unit was going to Iraq, only sons had the option of filling out some forms so they wouldn't have to be deployed."

As if you were ever in the military.

Originally posted by drogo

Originally posted by longbow
Draft is really not best solution, it's not good for military too to force someone to fight. I agree with Heinlein in this matter - draft is immoral and all soldiers should be volunteers, but who does not serve in military/national guard/other federal service will not have right to vote. Simple and effective.

........

War of Aggression??? - Ever heard of the defender of the defenceless - the Iraqi people

Btw this isnt an anti war/anti bush thread - i stopped reading after you started quoting from the anti war hand book.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by Vanguard]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Curme says:

"No, they cannot be drafted. In fact, they can choose not to go into combat even if they are in already."

Go to www.snopes.com... for the truth.

Or, to check out the same information on the Selective Service website, go to www4.sss.gov...

"When my unit was going to Iraq, only sons had the option of filling out some forms so they wouldn't have to be deployed."

As if you were ever in the military.

I wasn't sure about the draft, but I know it was true when we deployed to Iraq, and I just assumed it was true for the draft as well. That was my fault for assuming, but I know it is true about our Iraq deployment, because I saw it at Ft. Bragg. If you don't believe me, fine. Have a nice day.

I'd much rather my child grow up and be drafted than be indoctrinated into the liberal hate mongering at hippie rallies! I'd much rather have my child participate in a free-fire zone than catch him hugging a tree! I'd much rather my child fight in a foreign land for the cause of freedom than to count himself among those who've been on the wrong side of history for the last 50+ years.

And irreguardless of this all, this article is yet another liberal stone that has been cast to keep the idea of a draft on the minds of the American people. It's the same kind of scare tactics that they use on the elderly and minorities. If you listen to Democrats, we're losing the war on terror, social security is doing just fine but Republicans want to take it away, black votes don't count, and the sky is falling.

So once again, I'm sorry to all of you liberals. Myself and my children will not be attending any of your American flag-burning demonstrations. We won't be spending our arts and crafts time making scrap books about why we hate Bush, America, and ourselves. Instead we'll most likely be fishing, where I can show him that sometimes things must be killed. Especially when they're Communist or Radical Muslims!

What i see with the situation of "not fighing a war i dont support" is a bunch of people that simply do not want to pay up for the price of freedom. It is NOT free. The red of our flag symbolizes the valor, the blood that has been shed to keep our nation free.

If a time comes when our nation is threatened, waiting for the problem to be at our front doorstep before responding is a bad idea (9/11 anyone?). It is better to be prepared and ready, than to procrastinate.

I guess my biggest problem is when people become patriotic and say that we should all go pound the terrorists, but then, when asked to do the pounding, reverse and state that they dont support the war. That we are forcing democracy on a nation that does not want it.

You will have supporters AND non-supporters in a country. America is the very image of this. Half want republican law, the other half want democratic law. The same follows in afghanistan and iraq. Some will support it, some wont. Nobody can satisfy everybody, but everybody can be willing enough to compromise.

Well, ill just leave it at that for now.

Originally posted by Vanguard
War of Aggression??? - Ever heard of the defender of the defenceless - the Iraqi people

did they ask for help? how bought the states gets invaded because of the takeing away of peoples rights over recent years? by your definition that would be a valid enough reason.

what gives any country the RIGHT to decide what is right or wrong in any other country? useing this reasoning the crusades were RIGHT as they were only spreading the truth (as they saw it). it was also their opinion that they were in fact saveing people from themselves. this was not RIGHT. no righter in fact than forceing YOUR values on anyone else.

perhapse instead of destroing iraq you should have just helped those who were opressed escape those wrongs, mabe given them a home elsewhere? if this war is helping people so much, how come people are fighting to overthrow the new regime? it seems to me that they should be welcomeing you with arms wide open, and thanking you profusely for saveing them. not blowing themselves up trying to defend themselves. (oh ya i forgott that these are only those who thrived under the old regime, so they realy shouldn't have an opinion as they are wrong).

oh yeah i forgot to add that many would be laughing who knew me as a pro-war person. i seriousely thought of joining up years ago to fight the good fight. i am glad now that i did not as this war is nowhere near just. and that IS the PROBLEM with a draft. it removes someone from decideing for themselves what is a RIGHT or UNJUST cause. perhapes by some peoples logic if there is a draft that would be reason enough for an invasion. "to defend the defenceless" of those drafted against their will.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by drogo]

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Oh yeah? This article is not pointless and I say, in a country that is often at odds with some country somewhere in the world, better to be prepared. BTW, there's no difference between the democrats and republicans on this point. Read 'em and weep. Then apologize to our friend to started the thread.

Universal National Service Act, 2003: H.R. 163


Universal National Service Act, 2003: S. 89

Those were voted down, and were only brought up to...teach a lesson...or something. Those bills had 0 chance of getting anywhere. I not even sure what the point of bringing those up is? It only proves my point that congress won't vote for such a thing now.

Did you read the article? Current administration?
Anyways her kid was only 9 at the time and made the scrapbook in case she ever had to use it. If someone is trying to make a scrap book cause they are worrying about the current Admin then it's too late for them.
(unless you happen to have pictures of you at a rally from 15 years ago)

It's implying for parents to start now (when the kid is young) so they will have proof later on, like 11-15 years later on which will have a different administration bt that time.....hopefully.

It's talking about the future, planning ahead.

I only said current administration because well....they're the current administration. I know it's talking about planning for the future and all but how long have you been on ATS? You should know someone was/is going to start blaming this administration for bringing us to the point where we need a draft sooner or later. That's just how it is


But even for the future this article still pointless.
There can and will be only two causes for a draft (with the way the US and our military is set up now).
1. We're being invaded
2. Any WW1 or WW2 type scenario

Either case would be a fight for our survival and I can't see me teaching anyone not to fight for their right to live in peace.

I honestly doubt there will be a draft. Mainly because the military is so opposed to it.

Our military brass learned that once the draft ended, both discipline, morale, and quality increased in the services. All of my older NCOs and officers all told me the draft army was about the most useless bunch. When people WANT to be there, then you have a better oiled machine.

I know the current administration would like a draft, but frankly, I dont think they would succeed. They need congressional support for the draft, and since the military does not support it, well,......just because El Presidente wants something doesnt mean hes gonna get it. He wants privatization of social security, but it looks like he ain't gonna get it. He aint all powerful or invincible. Democracy in this country, while debated and sometimes attacked, and sometimes sputters, still exists, and when even conservatives who once supported this president are starting to question and withdraw support for him, then we shall see more and more of his proposals get shot down.

Still, creating a book and gathering proof that one has morally objected to the war is a good idea. Keeping documentation of anything is not only good for legal purposes, but for personal ones as well.

Restricting voting to people who have served in the military is the dumbest and most Un-American comment I have seen in a while. And Im sure that if you talked to most military personnel currently serving, and veterans, they would agree. We didn't serve in the military just to protect our right to vote. We served ti protect ALL Americans right to vote. Military service isn't the only way to serve your country. There are many other ways to perform your patriotic duty that are just as important. In fact VOTING and paying attention to your govornment and making it accountable is a very important patriotic duty that any American who loves their country should perform. The military is not for everyone, and only those who seriously want to serve and make the sacrifices it requires should. But just because you dont join does not mean you're less of a citizen.

Volunteering at homeless shelters, nursing homes, working to protect our wilderness and wildlife and environemnt from destruction, becoming a teacher, getting involved in law, becoming politically active, defending and battling unjust laws or assaults on our constitutional rights, these are all examples of things that are just as vital to our country's security and well being as our armed services are! Its these things that people in uniform are trying to protect from foreign enemies, but we also need people back home to protect our constitution from the domestic enemies that don't carry guns, but pens, paper, and loud mouths!

I do, however, believe that if a foreign national serves in our military, they should be granted citizenship if they so desire it. If they are good enough to fight and die for our flag, then they are good enough to live under it and become Americans, provided their service was honorable.

Originally posted by C0le
Raising the next generation of cowards... and people wonder why this country isnt what it once was, its full of a bunch of chicken # liberal pansies.

This is just stupid, raising your kids to hate war because you hate this war.... Noone will disagree that war is a last resort and is a bloody game, but what the hell is this country going to do 10-20-30 years down the road, when our country truely needs a draft, ww3 or a ww4 when all hell is breaking loose, and this country calls on these young men and women to defend our homeland.. but they wont go/fight because they have been so brainwashed by the liberals who think this country got to be the #1 country in the world without paying alot in blood...

You dont like the draft in situations such as to day, and this war/s thats fine, but dont raise your kids to be so anti-war that they will not defend our home in the future..

[edit on 1-5-2005 by C0le]

Why yes! It's much better to send off the poor and underpriveledged to war so that right-wing fat-cats can make more profits from their warmongering businesses while their children attend Ivy League schools and commit felonies incollege that will be swept under the rug.

This country got strong because of MY ANCESTORS, developing the country and not shedding blood for corporate (read Haliburton and Carlisle group) overpriveledged hacks who have never in their lives faced up to the real problems of life or even faced the enemy.


But then some people are considered heroes not because they shot the enemy down, but because their cowardly ass got shot down.

Originally posted by aggroskater
What i see with the situation of "not fighing a war i dont support" is a bunch of people that simply do not want to pay up for the price of freedom. It is NOT free. The red of our flag symbolizes the valor, the blood that has been shed to keep our nation free.

If a time comes when our nation is threatened, waiting for the problem to be at our front doorstep before responding is a bad idea (9/11 anyone?). It is better to be prepared and ready, than to procrastinate.

I guess my biggest problem is when people become patriotic and say that we should all go pound the terrorists, but then, when asked to do the pounding, reverse and state that they dont support the war. That we are forcing democracy on a nation that does not want it.

You will have supporters AND non-supporters in a country. America is the very image of this. Half want republican law, the other half want democratic law. The same follows in afghanistan and iraq. Some will support it, some wont. Nobody can satisfy everybody, but everybody can be willing enough to compromise.

Well, ill just leave it at that for now.

I think the main thing we should be looking at is what is the causes / effects were..

I wonder how many US citizens believe that the actions of the terroriosts had no initial motivation, "they just like to kill people for fun I guess, I mean, we couldn't have done anything to make them upset right?"

What people don't seem to see is that retaliation is actually fuel to the fire. Maintaining forceful control over something or someone is only possible if the force is ever-increasing over time. Add a bit of logic to that statement and you'll see what I'm saying. There will never be a time that the US will be able to just back off from this area and leave them to their own devices. By initiating their own involvement in the middle east years ago, they basically made an investment that cannot be backed out of, unless someone tucks their tail between their legs and goes home, and you know by now that it is not ever possible for a government to admit personal guilt on anything less than a historical scale.

There's no one reason for the war, every level of the populace has their own reasons, whether they are real motivations, manufactured, or presented to the public so that they seem real, or whether its just to make a quick buck. So many levels of corruption it makes my head spin.

And the thing that makes me most upset is that good people are coaxed into doing horrible things out of fear and pride. To me that is the greatest evil of all, making people think they are doing good when they are in reality bringing about their own destruction.

Originally posted by C0le
Raising the next generation of cowards... and people wonder why this country isnt what it once was, its full of a bunch of chicken # liberal pansies.

This is just stupid, raising your kids to hate war because you hate this war.... Noone will disagree that war is a last resort and is a bloody game, but what the hell is this country going to do 10-20-30 years down the road, when our country truely needs a draft, ww3 or a ww4 when all hell is breaking loose, and this country calls on these young men and women to defend our homeland.. but they wont go/fight because they have been so brainwashed by the liberals who think this country got to be the #1 country in the world without paying alot in blood...

May I ask what why it is important to be number #1?

If you think its for Survival, you are sadly mistaken.

And while I'm pointing out your misconceptions, I'll go ahead and burst your little bubble there. The ONLY area that the US has a comparative advantage is in FORCE and VIOLENCE. They are a pitiful example of a productive system in all other areas, economy, education, healthcare etc...

Survival depends on those elements, not military power. Sooner people get that through their heads the less bloody this is all going to be when it comes to a head.

Then again I'm not really sure if some of you are completely horrified by, or even remotely against death, destruction and carnage.

Originally posted by Chuck Stevenson
Why yes! It's much better to send off the poor and underpriveledged to war so that right-wing fat-cats can make more profits from their warmongering businesses while their children attend Ivy League schools and commit felonies incollege that will be swept under the rug.

This country got strong because of MY ANCESTORS, developing the country and not shedding blood for corporate (read Haliburton and Carlisle group) overpriveledged hacks who have never in their lives faced up to the real problems of life or even faced the enemy.


But then some people are considered heroes not because they shot the enemy down, but because their cowardly ass got shot down.

What does any of that have to do with what i said? Oh wait it doesnt.. it just gave ya a chance to spew some bs about how ya hate bush, and his admin..

But please go ahead explain anyway what all that has to do with what i said? did i mention the bush admin at all? NO, i was talking about the future and how there may come a time a draft could happen, and none of these kids who are being brainwashed into not wanting to fight wont be there to help defend this country, please please tell me how a war 10-20-30 years in the future and this country needing people to fight to protect us has to do with the crap you posted.