My views on bible contradictions...

There is tons of contradictions in the bible. The ones that concern me the most are the ones that contradict God directly. I won't post them all only a few to keep this brief. Oh and posting this doesn't mean I don't belive in god either. Anyone can look up in the night sky and see for themselves. I just question the integrity of the bible itself as being accurate.

One that comes to my mind is, the bible teaches that god is the only god there is no others and that the one god the bible mentions created everything and the entire universe. Although on the otherhand, the bible states that god is a very Jealous God and doesn't like people worshiping other gods. Now if there is only one god why would that god be jealous of people worshiping a non existant god??

Another one that comes to mind, god created man and loves man, but says man deserves nothing but death and eternal hell because he is born with sin. Why would a god that created man create him with sin? Why set him up for a fall with only one option "Believe in me or perish"?

If man was so insignificant as to say he should just be put to death, then why is it so important that man belive in god? Why go through the effort in sacrificing of his only son to save a few pesky human souls?

Last but not least, Why not stop Satan in the begining? Which opens a whole new can of worms. Gods entertainment? Maybe god relies on us more than we do on him. If we don't believe in him, then maybe he himself will not exsist. Maybe evil brings forth balance. As some good can come from chaos and destruction and evil. It's all definitely weird to say the least.

Heres some more...www.infidels.org...

The one I don't quite understand is the 'god is loving and all forgiving' along side 'he is a vengful, angry god'. kind of grants followers the choice of being peacful, tolerant members of society or judgemental lunatics bent on destroying it.

Can we post in the right forum, please?

You can make a god out of anything, but whatever you turn into a god, it is nothing but a mere creation. Whether it be money, sex, drugs, the TV...whatever you worship, it isn't God, and He, as He said, is jealous.

We are worthy of Hell. He sin. There is absolutley no leeway. The law is the law, and if we were to get a tad, Satan would have to be granted that same tad. Satan is the one who Hell was created for, not us. It was our rebelion that got us in such a mess.
However, God loved us enough that He gave His only befotten Son.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make a contradiction.

Well that's quite the post there super moderator. Apparently you got a little offended. Moved my post then just had to squeeze in a flame post and a personal attack. Lack of understanding??

There is tons of contradictions quotes directly from the bible itself. Like I said, I don't disbelieve in god, but I question the integrity of the bible. You sir are ignorant with a lack of common sense. Do you honestly believe the god of the entire universe is going to be jealous of a sinner god creating druggy?? Come on! Some things are probably true in the bible, but is everything? NO! From your post i'm speculating your a bible fanatic. So in that case Read John 5-6.

Testimonies About Jesus

John 5:39

"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life".

So acording to Jesus a person can go all through life reading the bible and gain absolutely nothing! Ironic isn't it?

Originally posted by sean

Well that's quite the post there super moderator. Apparently you got a little offended. Moved my post then just had to squeeze in a flame post and a personal attack. Lack of understanding??

No. You posted in the wrong forum. It got moved to this one. YOu commited an offense against the rules of the site. You were ignornant of the rule.

Now this is interesting. You got an answer to your post with no foul words and no digs, but because it disagreed with you, then you call it a flame.
You only wanted folks to agree??

There is tons of contradictions quotes directly from the bible itself.

The bible has none. You will want to rip stuff out of context in order to make some, but that is your problem. Instead of trying to understand, you wish to discredit it

Like I said, I don't disbelieve in god, but I question the integrity of the bible.

So you think the book is wrong, but you believe it anyway?
Its more likely that you find some of it ok, but other parts need to be changed so you feel comfortable in your sin.

You sir are ignorant with a lack of common sense.

From the guy who thinks the book is wrong, but believes the God is real. LOL
How can you say that God cant protect his word from mere humans. You think he can create the heavens, but not write and protect a book??? The god you believe in is a wimp

Do you honestly believe the god of the entire universe is going to be jealous of a sinner god creating druggy??

You were created to worship God. Satan came to eve and tricked her ito following his word, instead of Gods ('you will not surely die.... you will become like God') vs what God said "Let us create man in our image...')
So Eve followed satans word, and then adam did the same.
You worship the one whos word you keep.
This is why in the NT we find, '
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Some things are probably true in the bible, but is everything? NO! From your post i'm speculating your a bible fanatic.

Again...your god is a wimp if he cant protect a little book for everyone to have. Why do you think he wrote it? So you could read it.

So in that case Read John 5-6.

Testimonies About Jesus

John 5:39

"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life".

So acording to Jesus a person can go all through life reading the bible and gain absolutely nothing! Ironic isn't it?

The irony is that you have not read and understood the bible.

Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

That is what Christ was talking about

--

Joh 5:38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life

They had read, and understood...but never did DO.
Just like you, they tried to use it to discredit Jesus Christ.

If your going to be as arrogant as you are toward a mod, you could at least do a bit of studying to show thy self approved. As it stands now,

the sig is for you

there are no contradictions in the bible. First of all, no where in the bible does God say that He is the only god. He says He is the Almighty God, that is why in the ten comandments He says to not worship any other gods before me. If you have read this, then let me know which bible and what verse.

Secondly, God created man and loves man....First man was created in heaven before he was one earth. Before man came to earth conflicts arose with the angels and God. Knowing this, God made a plan in heaven before man came to be on earth. Jesus, our savior, was part of that plan. He knew adam and eve would bring death to all man. That is why he gave us His only begotten son to save us from sin. If God felt man deserved death and eternal hell, then He would never have made a plan to save us from sin. If you read Genesis you will read the first prophecy of Jesus coming. The only thing God ask of us, is to believe in Him. He sacrificed His only son to save us and bring us back to Him, It is the only way it could be done. It was part of the Plan before man was even created on earth.

Another, why not just destroy Satan in the beginning. Because man has to learn for himself. God gave us the option to believe in Him or not. If He destroyed satan in the beggining, there would be no reason for man to have a brain.

Also, I would like to add, the bible is written by man inspired through God. There are parts missing and parts mistranlated. But the bible is the closest thing we have to God's Word that is written. Before you open your bible, pray to God through Jesus Christ that He is with you and help you to see and understand. "To he that ask shall recieve"

Sean's right.

The Bible is full of contradictions, and you don't have to believe in it to believe in God. Yeah, Jake, I know you would say otherwise, but you say a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense.

It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't claim that the Bible is absolutely perfect. I have had experiences that let me know God is real, but that doesn't mean I have to live my life according to an old book to find It. If you don't see any contradictions, just remember that everyone has a different interpretation. But, to peeps like you, Jake, only yours is the correct one...

I do agree with truthseeka that you don't have to believe in the bible to believe in God. There are a lot of people out there that believe in Him and have never even seen the bible. However, like I said, the bible does not contradict itself. It is people who contradict it. If you believe that it does, then show me.

Nope, not offended at all. I moved your thread because you did not post the thread in the proper place. This is not conspiracy, this is just another one of those usual threads that pop up every other day by someone who says there are contradictions, then say they aren't going to list any, then eventually do. You show them their lack of understanding, and then they throw out another handful, at which time, if one has the patience for such stuff, one might be tempted to explain that pile. This will go on for days if one were to have the stamina. Me? I'm not going to play your game as you are just spoiling for the chance to make digs at the Bible.

I will say this; you are proving John 5:39. Have fun! In the right forum, of course.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

... This is not conspiracy, this is just another one of those usual threads that pop up every other day by someone who says there are contradictions, then say they aren't going to list any, then eventually do. You show them their lack of understanding, and then they throw out another handful, at which time, if one has the patience for such stuff, one might be tempted to explain that pile. ...

I will say this; you are proving John 5:39. Have fun! In the right forum, of course.

and this one too

(MSG)
2Pe 3:3 First off, you need to know that in the last days, mockers are going to have a heyday. Reducing everything to the level of their puny feelings,
2Pe 3:4 they'll mock, "So what's happened to the promise of his Coming? Our ancestors are dead and buried, and everything's going on just as it has from the first day of creation. Nothing's changed."
2Pe 3:5 They conveniently forget that long ago all the galaxies and this very planet were brought into existence out of watery chaos by God's word.
2Pe 3:6 Then God's word brought the chaos back in a flood that destroyed the world.
2Pe 3:7 The current galaxies and earth are fuel for the final fire. God is poised, ready to speak his word again, ready to give the signal for the judgment and destruction of the desecrating skeptics.

Frist off, I have no intentions of offending or attacking anyone. I study the bible all the time, but I am not searching for God in there. I used to beleive that the bible contradicted itself all over, but through reading it every chance I get and having faith in Jesus, I have learned that it doesn't. I have got the patience, so those of you that say it does. Bring it on. Give me your list of contradictions.

[edit on 2-5-2005 by karie]

God did not write the bible. Man did. By deciple followers some that were murderers and theives.

Karie, Nowhere in the bible does it say god is the only god? Well there is many. Here is just one read it for yourself...

Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."

The keyword here is "US" means more than one. Heres another one...

"... I have seen God face to face ..." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

HUH??

CIRCUMCISION

"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." -- Galatians 5:2

So God doesn't want man to profit anything? Heres another one...

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven,
... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

I shouldn't have to continue with anymore. These are blantant contradictions. The real question is why? Well you whisper one thing in someones ear by the time it gets back to you it makes no sense at all and that is a proven fact! The bible has probably been altered, rewritten, lost, interpreted many times over. This bible was written 2000+ years ago. People then seeing a meteorite would of believed it was a personal sign from god. With knowledge now we know things like that isn't signs from god.

According to the bible when Satan tricked eve they gained knowledge. So knowledge derived from evil. So how does one know, learn and love their god if they have no knowledge?

The Bibile is God breathed, man might have held the pen against the paper, but the Holy spirit guided the minds and hearts of those writers.

Contradictions in the Bible only appear when you take things out of context, misinterpet what is written, a bad translation, or forget the basic truths that are metioned in the bible. Not to metion that the bible has a lot of symbology used which can confused even scholars

Anyone can study the bible, but not everyone can study the bible and understand what it means and says. I could clarify every contradictory point by using otehr parts of scripture and even historical evidance to prove there are no contradictions. But in the end there will be no point to it since you do not want to believe in on faith that it is true, and that with that faith in the savior you will be saved.

God refers to himself in the singular and plural, because he is the triune God, three in one, Father, Son and Holy spirit. The Nicene Creed makes a great statement to define it.

You might (like the jewish leaders of the time) as well say that Jesus was being blasphemous by saying he was the son of God. If Jesus was any other man then he would have been blasphemous in saying that.

In Gen 32 Jacob wrestles with a "Man" who later tells him to change his name to Isreal (which means "he struggles with God") and a bit later Jacob/Isreal names the place Penial (which means Face of God) to symbolize his wrestling match. It is purely symbolic. That Man might have been very well an angle, or an avatar God chose. But Jacob/Isreal did not see the full unblemished, holy, radiant Glory of God. Which is what John refers to

If we listen carefully to Paul's argument in Galations 5:1-6, we will find that he is defending the freedom of his readers from the coercive tactics of those who were forcing them to conform to a particular religious tradition. in the church of Galatian there was a problem with leaders forcing members to be circumsized. Paul's authoritative appeal is not an example of authoritarian religious tyranny, but just the opposite: it is a charter for genuine spiritual freedom.

This might be a contradiction. (John 3:13) But only if Moses and Elijah are in heaven. if you read revelations it is not the case, on judgement day all the spirits of the dead and the living arrive into heaven (Rev 7) in a sense everyone who died and will be saved before judgement day had thier spirits time warped to that time.

But since you metion John Chapter 3, which is one of my favorites lets check on how it refers to the Old testement

JOhn 3:14-15 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Jesus forshadows his own death of being raised up on the cross in this passage. But also he was giving a big hint to Nicodemus, who he was having a great thelogical discussion with. Refering back to Moses and when the hebrews were being plagued by poisinous snakes

Numbers 12: 4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to be cured by ailments by just looking up at a bronzed snake? And what a wonder it is to be cured of sins by just remembering what Jesus did for us out of love when he was raised up on the cross?

Nitpick the bible all you want by finding contractictions, all it is doing is diverting your attention from the real truth of the bible, and how easy it is to attain salvation and arrive in heaven.

[edit on 5/2/2005 by Jehosephat]

Ok...Sean,

Let me see what I can do with some of your posts. I wont finish your whole list but when time allows I will come back and try to do something with the lengthy list.

Point 1
Men the world over as recorded in history have had Gods mostly of thier own invention. Most of the systems reside under what we know as a type of Feudalism...with a King or Emperor who was God among the people and a Priesthood to given his throne legitimacy. The two groups worked together to generally fleece the people and keep the priesthood and kings in power.
The very intresting thing about the original instructions to the hebrew people when coming out of the land of Egypt ..is that they were given no authority to have king. This is very telling. They were given instructions to keep a people for a priesthood but not a king. They were told that The Lord of Hosts was their king...meanig God. This Point alone...Sean seperates the Hebrew people and Christians from the very systems you try to use as making or implying all gods are the same god. This position of yours is right out of Paganism. The Hebrew people went on to want kings later in thier history and we have this recorded ....that they wanted to be like other nations. It is also recorded that God gave them a king...Saul..not in his pleasure with them but in his displeasure ..as these people were not to be like other people surrounding them. They got thier king and mostly it is recorded that they went downhill from there..a very telling history that Christians should take notice of since so m any counterfits today want to reinstitute variations of this system.
History also records ..if read carefully ..all attempts of counterfit religions in cluding the RCC have been to reinstitute this system of Kings and priesthoods to fleece the people and keep them in line for the purposes of Power. In otherword a return to the olde pagan systems. These pagan religious systems often went under the sub description of "Divine right of Kings." This too can be found in certain history books and the death of this system by the Execution of King Charles the 1st..is what ended this in the western world in 1649.
To the knowlegable Christian ..their King is in heaven and no where on this earth. Their kingdom is in Heaven and any attempt of men to build a kingdom or temple is in fact a counterfit system of men..also known as the "traditions of men".

Point 2
Man born in sin.
This is intresting again because According to the Word..the first man and woman were not born in sin...but committed sin...and as a result were changed..never to be the same as when they were created.
God did not make them sin..this is a quantum assumption on your part. he did however make them pay for their tresspass...after instructing them clearly on their conduct.
Since that time we bear this mark for their sin..in perpetuity. We know this simply because of the fact that you do not have to teach us to do bad...or in error...this comes naturally to us. What we have to be taught it to do correctly or what is right. This correctness or being right does not come natural to us. You can see this all over the world no matter what customs or language. We learn by our errors...not becasue of some special gene pool or our rightiousness. This should be obvious to many but the simple fact is that it is not obvious to most. The fact is that the material we are made of is not good material. It has errors in it.

Point 3
Once again ...many miss the concet of the Soverignty and holyness of God.
Man born in sin.or with sin ..deserves hell and damnation..and God would be right and correct in sending everyone to hell and damnation. This is so contrary to the logic of humans that everyone deserves good things after all we are all good people.
The position of the Word is that God chooses who are His people and the rest are not his people..it is that simple. His people will see hear and understand his instructions and the rest will not. This is totally contradictory to the "I'm ok your ok" stuff of today believed by so many.
The Bible position is that all men deserve death and damnation....God Chooses for His purposes..not mens purposes ,who will serve him and who he will save from this hell and damnation.
This leaves men and mans traditions totally out of the equation. Every attempt of men through out history has been to change or alter this equation with myriads of counterfit systems where man by his traditions can counterfit this system of the Soverignty and Holyess of God for purposes of power and control. In otherwords...man can by some work or favor..to the church /priesthood can get into heaven or avoid damnation.

I will go on to more on your posts later Sean but this is enough for now.

Thanks
Orangetom

Rip them from context or not. It still is a contradiction. The bible has been set with fallacy from the beginging. In genesis god makes the earth and man and the garden of eden and tree of life and tree of knowledge. Says don't eat fruit from these 2 tree's. Then suddenly out of knowhere Satan apparently a god, angel, person has knowledge to to tell eve the real reason why. So eve eats one and gives one to adam bla bla bla and so on. God knew this was going to happen and could of just not made the tree of life and tree of knowledge from the start. Why set man up for a fall? So now man has knoweldge of evil and good God really puts the hammer down and hides the tree of life and protects it with angels and flaming swords. Huh? God couldn't have protected the tree of life and knowledge from the start like this? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The bible is full of stumbling blocks god gives and later takes it away.

So now Adam and eve have offspring 2 sons and later their sons have sons, (apparently their wifes came out of thin air). later on God destroy's everything but Noah and his family and the cycle plays over again. So apparently no one from the time of Adam and eve to Noah was even worthy to exist. Whatever happen to forgiveness and loving and caring, teaching? God couldn't interact with them enough to keep things straight? You people can't see the fallacies in this? Man was Doomed from the start. The bible has been manipulated over and over and over. It's so messed up you can't make heads or tails from it.

It's like having a night with some friends invite them over for dinner to have a good time and to play some cards, but since your throwing the party you take it upon yourself to take out all the Aces for yourself so that no one could possibly win but you. That's exactly what god does according to the bible. I for one am not buying it. I believe In a more loving god than that.

Sean, i just proved they are not mutually contradictive statments, therefore not contradictions. if you want to ignore a post that contradicts your belives then find. Unlike you I have an open mind and welcome discussion.

are you sure we are reading the same bible? yours seems a lot differant then mine

God said not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and evil.. he never forbid eating the fruit from the tree of life until Adam and Eve disobeyed God and were banised from eden. Satan never appeared.. a serpent did. But you can say the Serpant was a symbol of Satan. And Satan was not a god.. I have no idea how you came up with that idea.

You forget a Bible truth sean in your quick glee to disprove the bible. Adam and Eve were doing fine as long as they obeyed Gods one command. That was thier "payment" for immortality and perfect exisitance. Humans find it easy to blame sin on God, when they should isntead blame themselves. Adama and Eve certainly didn't want to blame themselves for eating that fruit. But God is the only one that can save people.... Simplified:

God Cannot cause sin
God is the only one that can save sinners
Man cannot save themselves
Man is the only one that sins.

So now Adam and eve have offspring 2 sons and later their sons have sons, (apparently their wifes came out of thin air)

Since at the beginning God had created only one family to populate the earth, Cain's wife must have been a close relative - probably his own sister, possibly a niece. This was inevitable, since God had determined that all of earth's inhabitants were to have a common parentage

There is plenty of fogivness in Noahs flood, first of all, God warned everyone to cease thier wicked ways or they would be punished. Since they kept doing the same thing they were punished. Yet God does also say he would never do that again and gave the symbol of the rainbow as witness to that fact. You could say that most of them were decendents of Cain who commited the first recored murder.... they had a rough start to being with. But now they could all start as belivers.

It is a loving God for the simple fact the only thing he asks from you in order ot be saved, is to belive that Jesus died for everyone's sins on the cross and in that saving faith you will achive salvation.

Much better then some others which requiring you pray, spend money, or show your piety in order to be saved.

Originally posted by sean
Rip them from context or not. It still is a contradiction. The bible has been set with fallacy from the beginging.

A lack of comprehension on the part of the reader is not the same thing as a contradiction.

In genesis god makes the earth and man and the garden of eden and tree of life and tree of knowledge. Says don't eat fruit from these 2 tree's.

God did not forbid eating from the tree of life.

Then suddenly out of knowhere Satan apparently a god, angel, person has knowledge to to tell eve the real reason why. So eve eats one and gives one to adam bla bla bla and so on. God knew this was going to happen and could of just not made the tree of life and tree of knowledge from the start. Why set man up for a fall? So now man has knoweldge of evil and good God really puts the hammer down and hides the tree of life and protects it with angels and flaming swords. Huh? God couldn't have protected the tree of life and knowledge from the start like this? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The bible is full of stumbling blocks god gives and later takes it away.

God is outside of time. He knows the end from the beginning. This does not mean that everything is prearranged only that it is pre known. To question the creators methods strikes me as quite pompous, but then again it is a good question and is a key to understanding our purpose for being. Our lives are about learning lessons. All of these lessons are in some way connected to God's character. It is this character that God wants us to grow in and perfect in ourselves. One of our limitations is that God's character can not just be implanted in us. It must be learnt. The knowledge revealed to us by scripture and the trials that we go through personally shape our character and our understanding of God and ourselves.

So now Adam and eve have offspring 2 sons and later their sons have sons, (apparently their wifes came out of thin air).

The origin of their wives is not a mystery. "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." Genesis 3:20

Eve is the mother of all people. That includes her son's and their wives and you and I.

later on God destroy's everything but Noah and his family and the cycle plays over again. So apparently no one from the time of Adam and eve to Noah was even worthy to exist. Whatever happen to forgiveness and loving and caring, teaching? God couldn't interact with them enough to keep things straight? You people can't see the fallacies in this? Man was Doomed from the start. The bible has been manipulated over and over and over. It's so messed up you can't make heads or tails from it.

The main reason for your confusion comes from giving too much importance to the physical. One of the main lessons repeated over and over again in scripture is that the spiritual is far more important than the physical. All of the people who died in the flood were no more or less worthy than you or I. They suffered the same fate as everyone else who has ever lived, that fate being physical death.

It's like having a night with some friends invite them over for dinner to have a good time and to play some cards, but since your throwing the party you take it upon yourself to take out all the Aces for yourself so that no one could possibly win but you. That's exactly what god does according to the bible. I for one am not buying it. I believe In a more loving god than that.

I can agree with you here, but it seems to me that as the creator God deserves to set the rules and do as he pleases. He does these things however out of love for his creation, not for fun. God cares about us as we do for our own children. If I tried to keep my children away from all harm and never let them learn the lessons of real life they would be ill equipped to handle the real world and either be cruel monsters or fully grown babies. If you believe in God you should also trust his word. He will not lead you astray.


Steve

You have very poor debating points..and techniques. Even worse than James the Lesser.
Alot of these people posting on this and other boards take time to explain your positions piece by piece..and debate...you pretty much dismiss their points in favor of your default settings complete with emotional baggage.

It is a very intresting technique but standard for unbelievers and Athiests.
However James the Lesser .will to his credit try to debate some of the points ..he just goes off into such emotional baggage..it becomes obvious he is out of control.
You , Sean , follow pretty much the same technique.

You do not reply point to point to show the debaters with opposite points where they are wrong or in error in thier positions. You switch to your "tangents" as if they are excellence or debating points...while ignoring others.

I agree with Sntx in saying a lack of comprenhension is not the same as a contradition....well said on their part.

you need some work on your debating technique. Hope you get it down eventually.

thanks,
Orangetom

Ok thenwhat's your explanation then for the numerous scriptures that say one thing then later on say another? I have quoted it's fallacy. So if I told you the truth then the next day lied to you that doesn't make me a liar? If one thing is not true, then it's possible there are many things that are not true.

Sean.. you might want to read our posts and explainations for the examples you gave. it is obvious you are not bothering to read them or comment on them