NEWS: Freedom (Tower) is Insecure

SMR
I wouldn't have built on their dead, and I wouldn't have massacred them wholesale. Are you asking us to acquiesce to our complete and utter lack of compassion as a culture?

I mean, I see it, believe me I do. I see it, and know it for what it is. I look into the past and see all the horrible things we've done as a nation and as individuals, and I want to avoid repeating those mistakes. Just because we always have been bastards, doesn't mean we have to keep making those decisions in the same way.

I think it's possible to change.

But hey, let's let Donald Trump decide. After all, money is our God now. Those with the most money, are the most Godly, right? Isn't that the message?

Well to hell with their money, and to hell with their power. What they're doing isn't right.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
SMR
I wouldn't have built on their dead, and I wouldn't have massacred them wholesale. Are you asking us to acquiesce to our complete and utter lack of compassion as a culture?

I mean, I see it, believe me I do. I see it, and know it for what it is. I look into the past and see all the horrible things we've done as a nation and as individuals, and I want to avoid repeating those mistakes. Just because we always have been bastards, doesn't mean we have to keep making those decisions in the same way.

I think it's possible to change.

But hey, let's let Donald Trump decide. After all, money is our God now. Those with the most money, are the most Godly, right? Isn't that the message?

Well to hell with their money, and to hell with their power. What they're doing isn't right.

Build a bridge and get over it. You sound like a whining baby.

That was unwarranted.

If you want to have a discussion, let's. If you want to call people names, go elsewhere.

All the reasons I've heard so far for rebuilding stem from either vanity or greed. Those aren't virtues, they're not reasons, they're sins.

The reason for my proposal is simple, respect.

There is an entire country ripe and ready for giant towers of steel and glass, are we really so desperate for space that we have to build on the ashes of our dead?

People not only died on that day. As a person who grew up seeing those towers throughout my childhood, the part of the city died that day. That was a symbol of americas prosperity. The economy fell after that. Building new buildings and allowing enterprise to spring up again would be symbolic of america rising from the ashes of Recession and the cloud of fear that has fallen upon this nation. We have become more paranoid than ever and has led to us surrendering our rights. This new tower would lead to a happier nation, and maybe then people would realize that we need to be a smarter nation not a more frightened nation to survive this bump in the road.

This new tower would lead to a happier nation..

I would love to believe that, but I think it's the absolute pinnacle of wishful thinking.

The problems plaguing this nation's psyche are too deep to be fixed with lucrative building contracts, IMO.

What have we honestly learned?

People in New York changed for exactly one day. After that they went right back to their old hatreds and habitual behaviors (spitting on bums, knocking old ladies out of the way to steal their cab, etc.) and haven't looked back.

The country was the same. For a day we were united (albeit by anguish) and after that we returned to our normally scheduled programming.

Originally posted by CAConrad0825
As a person who grew up seeing those towers throughout my childhood, the part of the city died that day. That was a symbol of americas prosperity. The economy fell after that. Building new buildings and allowing enterprise to spring up again would be symbolic of america rising from the ashes of Recession and the cloud of fear that has fallen upon this nation. We have become more paranoid than ever and has led to us surrendering our rights. This new tower would lead to a happier nation, and maybe then people would realize that we need to be a smarter nation not a more frightened nation to survive this bump in the road.

In a move that would risk appearing insensitive to your thoughts, CAConrad, I am going to reply to your post. Disclaimer: This is not personal. Building a huge skyscraper for the prupose of illustrating a symbolic point is relavant to the psychological needs of our nation, however, it is antithema to why it should be built. The problem with a lot of america's reasoning is that it places credence on symbols, on arbritary expressions of what we want to believe and thusly helps to dissuade attention from what actually is.

The situation is that two buildings collapsed as a result of people deciding that it should as a way to protest and oppose the American influence abroad. The situation is not that we lost a skyline.

The situation is that America puffed up it's collective chest and proceeded to perpetuate the actions that produced such a cataclysmic reaction. The situation is not that terrorists are out to get us.

A new tower will help to encourage the onset of amnesia regarding the 9/11 tragedy. Yes...people will still remember and hold their respective homages, but the emphasis will be on the collective ascension from those ashes and on the symbology of our reality, rather than the actual behavior of our nation as a whole and how we present ourselves to the world(the general public tends to ignorant that they live in their own carefully created bubble).


A happier nation...I don't think so....a habitually distracted nation, this tower being the latest in a very long line.........

to correct you shock it was the entire wtc complex amounting to more than two buildings...but that proves a point. People only focus on the obvious. The towers are not what need to be replaced but our state of mind. More places than new york were attacked that day.

More places were attacked after then and before then too, but did we do anything to change it? no we did not. Americans are thick headed and think that because we invent things that everyone will like what we do. I am not pointing any fingers because i am just as guilty as anyother american.

We claim to be a melting pot but we really are just a powder keg like Austria/Hungary in 1911. We offer prosperity but we in turn force our ways upon others. We feel that all because we do not agree politically we should make people a democracy. We ignore the human rights of those who we claim to want to help and worry only about "Terrorism".

The US claims to never forget the plight of the Jewish people after world war II. But they were not the only victims of the nazis. We claim to never forget the african americans and their suffering in america and yet we forget that asians are discriminated by not only whites but blacks too.

Americans need a reality check. All because wars are won and laws are passed does not mean that everything is alright. A thermometer doesn't tell if you are sick or not. Just if you have a fever.

CAConrad0825 - huh? First of all stay on topic.

Were not shoving Democracy down peoples thoats, were offering it to them.

[edit on 10-5-2005 by Murcielago]

i am staying on topic. the freedom tower shows that we are totally ignorant to why we were attacked. We are shoving democracy down their throats...we shouldn't even be in the Middle East. The US had help when we gained our independence but the majority of our effort was through the colonists effort. The same goes for other groups that fought for their independence and succeeded.

The US can help in other worthwhile causes where people want help but no we take away the soveriegnty of Iraq so that the "people may be free" but at what cost? The cause for the war was WMD and they are not there. I think that i would be ok with it if we went there out of humanitarian reasons not WMDs and terrorism.

Terrorism allows for anything these days: The Patriot Act, Increased spending in places where they do not belong, military action as a means of nation building...the list goes on and on. The main point is the Freedom Tower is a symbol of a different image of america but still the same basic state of mind. The towers used to be a symbol of our prosperity, but these new towers will only symbolize our arrogance.

Originally posted by lmgnyc
As a New Yorker who lost friends and colleagues in the attack, I would like the towers to be rebuilt.

100% with you.

The only way for me to get on with my life is to move forward and not relive the event every time I have to go about my business downtown--especially in light of the circus that the WTC site has now become. I know many other New Yorkers that feel this way.

Rebuild the Towers!

Conrad
The US can help in other worthwhile causes where people want help but no we take away the soveriegnty of Iraq so that the "people may be free" but at what cost? The cause for the war was WMD and they are not there. I think that i would be ok with it if we went there out of humanitarian reasons not WMDs and terrorism.

Freedom's Priceless. and everyone wants it.

The killings in Iraq isn't (the large majority) because they dont want us there to fix there country, its terrorist sent over from other countries to fight the US.
We found no Nukes because we gave him far to much time, he (saddam) had weeks to talk to neighboring countries and discuss what to do with them, he could of hid them, sold them, dismantled them, we gave him more then enough time for him to easy make them "not exist".

Just curious: What do YOU think the US should do about NK? I want to hear you side of things.

I feel that the US should use fear rather than military action in the case of countries with Nukes...but that didn't work for Iraq either. In my opinion we should go into NK for humanitarian reasons since we feel So Sorry for what happened to the Jews in the German concentration camps, yet we won't go there because Kim Jong Il's C. Camps are his own business.

I think it is sad and dispicable of the US, SK, and Japan who all cliam that NK is this aweful thing and yet we continue to support it. How you might ask? Well, we know what goes on in NK because people escape all the time from there and flee to SK and then testify before hearings almost monthly about the horrors of NK. So what do these concerned nations do in response to this information?

We shower them with money to bring the standard of living up!!! Hurrah for politics!!!....I want to be shot into space with Major Tom from David Bowie's "Space Oddity"...so that i'll be "...floating in the most percilular way-hay...and And the stars look very different today For here Am I sitting in a tin can Far above the world Planet Earth is blue And there's nothing I can do..." and then i can die not worrying about how people are screwing up the world.

Mayor Bloomberg is taking charge of the WTC Memorial fund.

This is not good news for the families. They're understandably upset, because this fellow couldn't care less about their concerns. He's got bills to pay...

www.usatoday.com...

His predecessor, Rudy Giuliani, had suggested when he left office that the entire site should be made into a "soaring, monumental" memorial.

Bloomberg, however, was focused on stabilizing the city's shaky post-9/11 economy, and the pragmatic billionaire could not support giving up 16 acres of prime downtown Manhattan real estate. He came across as business-oriented and harsh.

Victims' relatives were angered when he said downtown residents wouldn't want to live next to a "cemetery." Many were already unhappy because at the start of his term Bloomberg did not attend every firefighter's funeral as Giuliani had done, although he quickly changed his ways.

Originally posted by Hal9000
I would be interested in seeing what concerns they have. Are they worried about another attack?

I would agree also that the area should be treated with the due respect, but part of me also would like to see the completion off the Freedom Tower. It would be a symbol to our enemies that we will overcome, and they have not diminished our spirit.

[edit on 4/30/2005 by Hal9000]

What enemies? The US government planned the 9/11 attacks. are you saying that we will truimph over our own government? Thats not very likley to happen.

Originally posted by Murcielago
Freedom's Priceless. and everyone wants it.

- I agree, but it is how you define freedom that matters. You see, if your definition of "freedom" was right, then everybody would want it. But in truth, your service men and women are being killed - because, what you are offering they do not want. But everyone wants freedom, which is true - so what do you suppose you are really offering them over there?

Originally posted by Murcielago
The killings in Iraq isn't (the large majority) because they dont want us there to fix there country, its terrorist sent over from other countries to fight the US.

- No doubt some are there to fight the US from foriegn lands, but there is more than enough native freedom fighters there to blow up American soldiers and sympathizers. Maybe Occem's Razer could be used here? There is no need for foriegn soldiers when you have given the native population more than enough reasons to hate you.

Originally posted by Murcielago
We found no Nukes because we gave him far to much time, he (saddam) had weeks to talk to neighboring countries and discuss what to do with them, he could of hid them, sold them, dismantled them, we gave him more then enough time for him to easy make them "not exist".

- Ahh I see, so the insane mastermind devised plans to develop, build and maintain NUkes all without anyone(Other than the neocons) from noticing, and then when the ultimate self defense weapon could be used, he shipped them out to a foriegn country(That disn't like/trust him to begin with) all without anyone noticing despite that every satalyte was watching every bit of sand in that area? Or maybe, just maybe you were lied to?

Which sounds more plausible?

waiting2awake
- I agree, but it is how you define freedom that matters. You see, if your definition of "freedom" was right, then everybody would want it. But in truth, your service men and women are being killed - because, what you are offering they do not want. But everyone wants freedom, which is true - so what do you suppose you are really offering them over there?

I'm confused at what your talking about...please explain.

- No doubt some are there to fight the US from foriegn lands, but there is more than enough native freedom fighters there to blow up American soldiers and sympathizers. Maybe Occem's Razer could be used here? There is no need for foriegn soldiers when you have given the native population more than enough reasons to hate you.

well the biggest thing that is holding us back is all the damn left media.
They have done everything in there power to make the US fail in Iraq...they dont see the big picture, all they want is headlines that read "BUSH FAILED IN IRAQ". complete BS.
They practically dont even touch the issue of foreigners, and the weapons being used are coming from other countries on the "axis of evil" list, but also some are Russian.
Theres less Americans dying in Iraq these days...but the Iraq number has grown a lot, like the suicide bombings in front of police stations to persuade Iraqis from joining the police. And the next day after a bombing at a police station...low n behold there another line at the same station.

Much of Iraq is better now, but the biggest hurdle was been Baghdad. But in a couple years we will likely begin a slow withdraw, and the Iraqi government will take over, and the Iraqi police and military will then deal with the insurgents.
and overtime, if done right, there numbers will slowly fall year after year.

I think Iran needs to be taken care of.
whether thats an assassination, or military strikes on every Iranian military site in the country.

BTW, While I dont know if Iraq had any nukes...everyone knows they had WMD's (chemical & Biological).

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Mayor Bloomberg is taking charge of the WTC Memorial fund.

Thanks for the update WO
While many may feel that his non-sentimental approach is cold and callous, that may be what it takes to get the ball rolling with Freedom Tower.
What good does it do to the memory of those who died that day if no decisions can be made about what will go there.
I doubt he's gonna do anything too weird, this Memorial will be his Legacy after all, as completion is slated for his last year in office.

Wow......an old thread....I came on the site to read about everyone's reaction to North Korea and found this one w/recent activity......

I think I may have a solution for the overriding theme of this thread.......now that I have had a year and a half to foster a bit of cynicism......

For all those who want the tower(s) rebuilt.......build them. It encourages the economy, even if for the few who benefit immediately(I know...details), and it allows for a collective sigh with regards to a sense of complacency within our society. We have moved on. We did, in fact, take a good long look at the fact that someone had such a big problem as to extinguish the lives of many. Many watched it happen personally, via video, orno.......

And what was are response? To work as effectively( ) as possible to find a scapegoat, and get on with our daily lilves......as a majority, we all said, "meh," after a few days, regardless of how much we talked about it, or read the official/unofficial reports.

Which brings me to a very important side note.......

How many of us have read about 9/11.....from more than one source?

And how many of us ingested that information and then discarded the implications, the specifics, the realization that there are in fact different cultures and countries that indeed would like to enjoy their personal lives.....in favor of our personal lives?

For the most part, in almost everything I have read, I see only "Us vs. Them."

Is that what we ingest information for? To recognize and then ignore? Or to recognize what has been pre-determined for us to attenuate towards?

A saying that goes......."Knowledge is Power."

Are we to gain Knowledge from universal sources...such as our media and governments.....and not use it? If we are going to move on in our personal lives regardless.....and I'm emphasizing especially those who 'witnessed' the event from the other side of the world, state, conutry, etc....then what is the point? What is the point of even talking about it, of reading about it? So we can have an opinion that will for the most part be as superflous as the trash from our fast food expenditure? To learn is to apply it.......and the only application I have seen in full force is the limp wristed use of the term 'terror, terrorist, evil, and even 9/11'.......

So what is the point of learning, of reading and discussing the topic, for those of us who weren't directly involved, if we are using it as another conversation piece?

The French Tower...(oops freedom and french are synonymous, yeah/no)....is just a symbol. The Twin towers were as well. Business occurred within; yet nobody regarded them really as anything more then a part of our bustling bureaucracy, until they got themselves blowed up.

Point being......if bureacracy needs to happen.......then build a building. "Freedom," or rather the term and to a relevant extent the concept, have nothing to do with the financial exchanges, negotiations, ruminations, or even overall information purveyance. Period. There is no need to apply an idealogical term to a building that less then 1% percent of the population directly uses....

I'm sorry......but Freedom is not a building....and it pisses me off that so many people can support an off hand reference that is akin to "The Ministry of Truth".....

To those who want a memorial...even if just in defiance of the blatant commercial thematic of the aftermath........

Blow it up.....so that we can rebuild it.....again and again....so that we can remember....... again and again.....intermittently...throughout our own personal, daily routine.....

Thanks for the rant..




[edit on 9-10-2006 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 9-10-2006 by MemoryShock]