Why Bush Made the Middle East Safer

(1) In Afghanistan, the Taliban have been overthrown and a decent government has been installed.

(2) In Iraq, the Saddam Hussein regime has been overthrown, the dynasty has been destroyed and the possibility for a civilized form of governance exists for the first time in 30 years.

(3) In Iran, with dictatorships toppled to the east (Afghanistan) and the west (Iraq), popular resistance to the dictatorship of the mullahs has intensified.

(4) In Pakistan, once the sponsor and chief supporter of the Taliban, the government radically reversed course and became a leading American ally in the war on terror.

(5) In Saudi Arabia, where the presence of U.S. troops near the holy cities of Mecca and Medina deeply inflamed relations with many Muslims, the American military is leaving -- not in retreat or with apology but because it is no longer needed to protect Saudi Arabia from Hussein.

(6) Yemen, totally unhelpful to the United States after the attack on the USS Cole, has started cooperating in the war on terror.

(7) In the small, stable Gulf states, new alliances with the United States have been established.

(8) Kuwait's future is secure, the threat from Saddam Hussein having been eliminated.

(9) Jordan is secure, no longer having Iraq's tank armies and radical nationalist influence at its back.

(10) Syria has gone quiet, closing terrorist offices in Damascus and playing down its traditional anti-Americanism.

(11) Lebanon's southern frontier is quiet for the first time in years, as Hezbollah, reading the new strategic situation, has stopped cross-border attacks into Israel.

(12) Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations have been restarted, a truce has been declared and a fledgling Palestinian leadership has been established that might actually be prepared to make a real peace with Israel.

After all....we cant get to the oil with all those obsticles in the way.

Originally posted by kitty
(1) In Afghanistan, the Taliban have been overthrown and a decent government has been installed.

Truth: The Taliban are slowily regaining the power back and Bush's puppet, Karzami, is ineffectual.

(2) In Iraq, the Saddam Hussein regime has been overthrown, the dynasty has been destroyed and the possibility for a civilized form of governance exists for the first time in 30 years.

Truth: American soldiers are being picked off daily like in Vietnam; no government of any credbility to the Iraqi people is forming.

(3) In Iran, with dictatorships toppled to the east (Afghanistan) and the west (Iraq), popular resistance to the dictatorship of the mullahs has intensified.

Truth: They are starting up their nuclear weapons program for fear the same might happen to them.


(5) In Saudi Arabia, where the presence of U.S. troops near the holy cities of Mecca and Medina deeply inflamed relations with many Muslims, the American military is leaving -- not in retreat or with apology but because it is no longer needed to protect Saudi Arabia from Hussein.

Truth: It was a strategic move. No Saudi wanted us there in the first place. But, e needed a based in the ME so we were there. Now, we have Iraq and their oil. Saudi Arbabia is no longer needed.

(8) Kuwait's future is secure, the threat from Saddam Hussein having been eliminated.

Truth: That threat was eliminated long ago when Saddam shook hands and made peace with Kuwait a year or so before the war started.

(12) Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations have been restarted, a truce has been declared and a fledgling Palestinian leadership has been established that might actually be prepared to make a real peace with Israel.

Truth: Their are still bombings.

After all....we cant get to the oil with all those obsticles in the way.

Kitty, i tend to agree with you. Colonel has zero to back him up except for the fact that he hates Bush. Don't get offende by his posts, because they're composed in such a child-like nature.

Originally posted by goregrinder
Kitty, i tend to agree with you. Colonel has zero to back him up except for the fact that he hates Bush. Don't get offende by his posts, because they're composed in such a child-like nature.

Edited for abusive content

[Edited on 7-28-2003 by William One Sac]

Actually, Colonel has more to back up his claims than kitty does...

I ask again, what good has the Bu#es done?

LOL, no colonel actually, i post in other forums. Your goal on this site, is to be inflamatory. You love the attention it brings you. You love pissing people off.

First, your allegations about Afghanistan being unstable are completely erroneus. How many soldiers have died there in the past 6 months? pretty safe to say you couldn't tell me.

Second, there is absolutely no comparison between the war on iraq and vietnam. last time i checked, the body count wasn't up to the 10's of thousands.

Third, do you work for the CIA? Are you an undercover spook running around the deserts of Iran? How do you know what is really going on there. Speculation.

About the fourth comment, this is indeed, your opinion. nothing to back it, at all.

Fifth, you think a handshake from someone who orders wood-chip executions means a thing? Gulibility.

Last, there will always be bombings as long as the two are neighbors, and hate filled people such as yourself roam the streets.

F off, GG, friggin groupie stalker.

Ignorance once again rears its ugly head.

Originally posted by goregrinder
LOL, no colonel actually, i post in other forums. Your goal on this site, is to be inflamatory. You love the attention it brings you. You love pissing people off.

First, your allegations about Afghanistan being unstable are completely erroneus. How many soldiers have died there in the past 6 months? pretty safe to say you couldn't tell me.

Second, there is absolutely no comparison between the war on iraq and vietnam. last time i checked, the body count wasn't up to the 10's of thousands.

Third, do you work for the CIA? Are you an undercover spook running around the deserts of Iran? How do you know what is really going on there. Speculation.

About the fourth comment, this is indeed, your opinion. nothing to back it, at all.

Fifth, you think a handshake from someone who orders wood-chip executions means a thing? Gulibility.

Last, there will always be bombings as long as the two are neighbors, and hate filled people such as yourself roam the streets.

F off, GG, friggin groupie stalker.

Ignorance once again rears its ugly head.

Listen, ya little gay groupie stalker. I don't look for you and when you post I avoid you. But, like lucky charms you seem to "magically" show up whenever I post. I had to curse you out to stop sending me emails. What the hell is the matter with you?

Hey, I'm a hate filled person and haven't flamed anyone...

I'm responding to an open thread, kid. I always respond to these kinds of threads. I'm not going to not post somewhere becasue you're not there.


BTW, any mods catch this quote?

Listen, ya little gay groupie stalker

kitty, most of your points have something for them, but further inquiry in the subject dismantles them.

Originally posted by kitty
(1) In Afghanistan, the Taliban have been overthrown and a decent government has been installed.

This is not true. The sharia is still in place, in one of the most extreme forms on earth. There has been a little relief to the women's dress code, something fit for showing on CNN, but evidently unsubstantial. The Taliban are again claiming large portions of Afghanistan. The farmers grow Opium again, something that was forbidden under the Taleban's rule. Nothing has really changed in Afghanistan, but 10-20.000 fighters and civilians have been bombed to death.

(2) In Iraq, the Saddam Hussein regime has been overthrown, the dynasty has been destroyed and the possibility for a civilized form of governance exists for the first time in 30 years.

The Hussein dynasty, as you call it has been a stabilizing factor in the mideast for a long time. As it is now (probably) destroyed, kurds, shia and sunni, and americans are claiming dominion. It is too early to say if the situation has really evolved or if Saddam's secular and progressive rule will be replaced by a middle-ages islamic republic or by an ultracapitalist US puppet, robbing the iraqis of their labour and oil surplus...

(3) In Iran, with dictatorships toppled to the east (Afghanistan) and the west (Iraq), popular resistance to the dictatorship of the mullahs has intensified.

Is that a stabilizing factor ? I'm not so sure. Iran has in the recent years, under European guidance, achieved many improvements towards democracy and a secular islamism. As a result of the bombing of Iraq, the conservatives have taken the power again in Iran, stepping back 10 years of democratic effort. Furthermore, the Iranians now know that their only security lies in the developement of nuclear weapons, which they will achieve soon ( in 18 months, if we are to believe Israel)

(4) In Pakistan, once the sponsor and chief supporter of the Taliban, the government radically reversed course and became a leading American ally in the war on terror.

Err, no .. Pakistan is america's ally but is a leader in supporting terrorism. The Taleban recently r3egrouped in Pakistan, f.ex.

(6),(7),(8),(9),(10),(11),(12)

These are minor points. Yemen has become an extremely islamic country. The recent bombing campaign has inflamed islamism there... and the small gulf dictatorships, america's and israel's friends, may be better of now, indeed. Israel's security has indeed been improved .. but at what cost ? hundreds of thousands had to die for that, if not millions if we count the famine in Iraq following the civilian infrastructure bombings in GW1. The Israel/Palestinian peace process is a joke as long as they don't agree on borders and the status of Jerusalem. This inflammatory point where both parties weren't willing to sacrifice anything in the past and which led to the failure of ALL previous negociations, has been cunningly postponed to 2005, right AFTER the elections Don't praise the day before it's evening ...





[Edited on 28-7-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

[Edited on 28-7-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by goregrinder
Colonel has zero to back him up except for the fact that he hates Bush. Don't get offende by his posts, because they're composed in such a child-like nature.

Please keep it in the debate forum, ok?
There was nothing to gain or add with this response.

As to the thread, it's a piece of unsubstantiated fantasy on Kitty's part that is easily discredited within these very boards and with a spit of research; while others have already refuted all the blue sky claims Kitty made, I'll just add that we are less better off in the ME through all of these supposed altruistic actions than we were before. No Iraqi will see control of Iraq for the next decade - no Fundamentalist will fail to enroll in a terror cell anywhere in Pakistan/Afganistan/Iraq/Iran/Syria/SA, their recruiting is off the charts and will continue to grow.

Originally posted by goregrinder
I'm responding to an open thread, kid. I always respond to these kinds of threads. I'm not going to not post somewhere becasue you're not there.


BTW, any mods catch this quote?

Listen, ya little gay groupie stalker

You were attacking ME as you often have in your emails and on these boards. STOP STALKING ME.

break it up boys !

I will seperate you into 2 corners and have you kneel on sea salt if I hear one more snap out of the 2 of you !!!

oh its good to be a girl.

I realize it angers people to hear the truth. Reality is.....we need the oil. our civilization depends on it.
Resistance is futile.

No Iraqi will see control of Iraq for the next decade - no Fundamentalist will fail to enroll in a terror cell anywhere in Pakistan/Afganistan/Iraq/Iran/Syria/SA, their recruiting is off the charts and will continue to grow

Couldn't agree more, Bout, but what do you think would happen if we left this government, now in shambles, up to the Iraqis? Do we not have obligations to Iraq's people?

Someone needs to tell this guy to leaveme the hell alone and stop acting like some crazed groupie. I don't want nothing to do with him but he seems to be on my tip from day one.

Kitty, I partially agree. Oil was definantly, and undeniably a motive. But this war was not about oil entirely. It seems this administration loves to deal a little good with the bad.

kitty, did you even read my points, or are you ignoring me ?

goregrinder, stop bugging Colonel please .. what you're doing is close to sexual harassment ...

[Edited on 28-7-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

What? I'm simply responding to his comments. Why is it never frowned upon when he curses at other members of the board? And i fail to see how i'm "bugging" him. Please mind your own business.

If he makes, foolish/ignorant comments, i'm going to call him on it. sorry.

[Edited on 28-7-2003 by goregrinder]

this war was personal on BUsh's part. Saddam was a target for him even before he came into office. During BUsh Sr. gulf war, It got personal between the 2 families. Oil is in fact a big priority for us. Along with the fact that we were attacked on our home land...

Either way, US will squash this down to edible size.

[Edited on 28-7-2003 by kitty]

Originally posted by goregrinder
What?

For example, your Avatar is already of abnormal sexual behaviour and constitution

Posted by kitty.
Either way, US will squash this down to edible size.

is that supposed to be the part of the debate where you are defending your post ?