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The "Truth" about Vietnam

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posted on May, 1 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Ho Chi Mihn actually appealed to the United States first for help, we ignored him, and kept ignoring him until he appealed for help from the Soviet Union, then and only then did the US get involved in the Vietnam conflict.


This has to be taken in the context it was in, Twitchy.
The historical contest was the Cold War and the global fear of spreading Communism.
To the contrary, and according to the best and most objective historical writings on the Vietnam War--America's Longest War, by George C. Herring--Ho Chi Minh did not appeal for help from the US. It appealed for US recognition and support of the created government, which was declared by Ho Chi Minh on September 2, 1945.

In trying to contain the spread of worldwide Communism, the US acquiesced in the return of France to Vietnam [which Indo-china was apart of France's pre-WWII colonial possession] and from 1950-1954 actively supported French efforts to suppress Ho's revolution. Why? Because France was an important "piece" in the puzzle in Europe in containing the spread of Communism. NATO was created, remember? The Marshall Plan was an economic reconstruction plan to rebuild and fund those decimated European economies so as to make them "Communist proof."

Truman Doctrine was placed in 1947.
Domino Theory by Eisenhower in early 1950.

The US got involved primarily because of our support of France and secondarily, because of the containment policy. When France got booted out of Vietnam [Dein Bein Phu],the US picked up the cause strictly for and because of the containment policy.

The US failure in Vietnam is directly linked to the policy of Communist containment.

I would recommend that if one is seeking a true and real objective read and understanding of/on the Vietnam War, that Herring's book, America's Longest War, be the first read. An excellent and very objective book by one of the foremost historian's of/on the Vietnam War.





seekerof




posted on May, 1 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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Seekerof

As always, a great focus. I love your work. Thanks for the ref. Im not sure I buy the spread of Comm. thing in whole. Its more a Western rewrite than truth. I say that as an onlooker in 2005 and not a soldier in the 60s and 70s. The threat was real for sure but the real goals of the war where hidden from the public and still are.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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On April 30th 1975 Siagon fell. It would be another 98 days before I would be free from the bamboo cage that had been my home for the previous 210 days in Cambodia.


Dr H. Are you saying that YOU were in a bamboo cage for X number of days in Cambodia?

Or are you quoting or speaking of someone else?



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by dirk d
Seekerof

As always, a great focus. I love your work. Thanks for the ref. Im not sure I buy the spread of Comm. thing in whole. Its more a Western rewrite than truth. I say that as an onlooker in 2005 and not a soldier in the 60s and 70s. The threat was real for sure but the real goals of the war where hidden from the public and still are.



Thanks.
Simply trying to be objective based on academic historical sourcings and references.

The Cold War has been academically debated as starting with the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the conclusion of WWI, where Germany was seen as an obstacle or buffer against the spread of "world revolution," which was directly a cry/slogun attributed to and from the Russian Revolution. Churchill and Roosevelt were still fearful of the spread of Communism and "world revolution" and this could or can be seen from the Yalta, Tehran, and Potsdam wartime meetings. The Cold War and the fear of the spread of Communism was real and there are countless historical references to back this belief, which then became a policy just prior to the end of World War II.

This fear and policy is one that developed directly from the 1917 Russian Revolution. To be honest, it is still a policy and fear today.





seekerof

[edit on 1-5-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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Seekerof, you sound very well read on the Vietnam War, and I curious about your opinion on the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Was it a real attack, or just a fabricated excuse to enter the war? I've read about it, but still not sure what to believe (although I am leaning towards a fabricated attack, but I guess you knew that).



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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It is still debated today, curme, but all indications are that it was an actual event used and fabricated to expand the US military role in Vietnam by the Johnson Administration.

These might help:
The Tonkin Gulf Incidents, 1964

More here:
The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution by John Galloway

The Edwin Moise authoritive study is an excellent resource for this, objectively speaking, curme. Hope this will help and provide you, and maybe others, with a objective analysis of this event.





seekerof

[edit on 1-5-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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The main problem with the Vietnam were not the liberals and their media, but the completely idiotic strategy. There was never strategy how to win the war, the US and South Vietnam only tried not to lost it. They should make full scale attack to the North imediately, after the North increased the support to the Vietcong. Maybe the China would become quickly involved, but then it would be war China VS USA - similar to Korea instead of US imperialists against poor North. And the "Korean solution" would be much better option IMO. Vietnam was just another example of old saying - you cannot win war if you are just defending yourself.



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof


[....]

Truman Doctrine was placed in 1947.
Domino Theory by Eisenhower in early 1950.

The US got involved primarily because of our support of France and secondarily, because of the containment policy. When France got booted out of Vietnam [Dein Bein Phu],the US picked up the cause strictly for and because of the containment policy.

The US failure in Vietnam is directly linked to the policy of Communist containment.

[....]


in addition to TrumanDoctrine & DominoTheory

President D.D.E.(Ike) also warned of theMilitary-Industrial Complex speech of 1961, see ARTICLE V...

President D.D.E.(Ike) also presented us with Atoms For Peace
~~~~~

While DDE was alerting citizens to the Military-Industrial-Complex
??forerunner of todays NWO??

Pres. Ike, was having to balance the efforts & strategies against the Communist Tide... in Indochina the US involvement was envisioned as being limited to MAAG Military Assistance Advisory Group Indochina 1950-1965

and there it generally remained (US v N.Vietnam), until the tragic assassination of JFK, and then the 'MilitaryIndustrialComplex' took control with Pres LBJ at the helm followed by Nixon-Agnew etc.
~~~~~~

isn't it ironic
it was thru France, the USA got involved in SE Asia/Indochina/Vietnam...
and it was thru France...by way of the Paris Peace Talks--->>that the USA became dis-engaged

...The UnitedStates sent its best negotiators- from Averell Harriman to Cyrus Vance to Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. and Henry Kissinger....
???were these men...the 1968 thru 1973 equivelents of todays' neocons???
...and is this a valid question...?
~~~~~~~~~

just thought some more of the original ingredients should be noted,
as it was, there were radicals & non-conformists who did 'read-between-the-lines' and warned against involvement-intercession and the direction
the country was taking.....but a campaign of 'America-Love it or Leave it'
and 'My Country- Right or Wrong' took ahold of the majority of citizenry

whoops....excuse the editorializing, my bad




[edit on 2-5-2005 by St Udio]



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by DrHoracid

I would strongly encourage each of you out there to read this. It may be shocking to many of you to learn a little truth about "nam". On April 30th 1975 Siagon fell. It would be another 98 days before I would be free from the bamboo cage that had been my home for the previous 210 days in Cambodia.

God bless you "Chet" where ever you are..........

God bless America Too.................

[edit on 30-4-2005 by DrHoracid]


Did I read that right? Are you saying you were held prisoner for 308 days? Or are you talking about "Chet"?


Chet and I were both held for 308 days. He was my "spotter" on that mission. He took a hit when we were escaping. I tried like hell to get him out over the next ten days. He died somewhere around the 8th day. But we both made it out anyway. I weighed 140 pounds, he weighed 110 pounds. We were both 6'-2" tall. They took me to the hospital and I still don't know what the did with Chet. Been trying to find out for 30 years. He took that hit for me.

The brass said I was some kind of "hero".........they gave me this thing to pin on my chest..........BS......Chet was the hero.........he died in my place and I still don't know where he "is" today.

Sorry for the RANT.............became a psychologist to understand why Chet took that hit and why I'm still here and he isn't.

Ok enough now. I talked to damn much about this, just still pissed off.



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 06:32 AM
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Truth about vietnam?

The US was "saving" the south from ITESLF... not the North as was implied. The south was taught the lesson so many South Americans had to learn: anyone who stands in the way of US globalism with pettly things like popular social movements and demands for healthcare will be anihilated. The war with the north was purely to force the north to make a move against US troops in the south, and give them a reason for war: The commies are coming!!

Commies, for those too young to remember, was what we called terrorists back then, and is basically an excuse for the US to kill again and again and again.

Really funny here is the CIA being charged to find links between Hanoi and either (!) Moscow or Bejing... but they couldn't find any. Does that sound like WMD to you?




[edit on 2/5/2005 by Corinthas]



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas
Truth about vietnam?

The US was "saving" the south from ITESLF... not the North as was implied. The south was taught the lesson so many South Americans had to learn: anyone who stands in the way of US globalism with pettly things like popular social movements and demands for healthcare will be anihilated. The war with the north was purely to force the north to make a move against US troops in the south, and give them a reason for war: The commies are coming!!

Commies, for those too young to remember, was what we called terrorists back then, and is basically an excuse for the US to kill again and again and again.

Really funny here is the CIA being charged to find links between Hanoi and either (!) Moscow or Bejing... but they couldn't find any. Does that sound like WMD to you?




[edit on 2/5/2005 by Corinthas]


Yet again a inept attempt at rewriting history to suit your agenda. What kind of weapons did the NVA use? Gezz let me see........ahh they were AK-47's and pretty much from the communist block. SAM missles. Russian tanks..........MIG aircraft.........I would say that was a SMALL link.................



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Yet again a inept attempt at rewriting history to suit your agenda. What kind of weapons did the NVA use? Gezz let me see........ahh they were AK-47's and pretty much from the communist block. SAM missles. Russian tanks..........MIG aircraft.........I would say that was a SMALL link.................



Well yeah there was the weapons... but thats not a "link".. well if it was... we could go on to have a look at what was done with M-16s and other US gear.
So lets not see the weapos as a link. Weapons is a trade issue.

I was talking about intelligence links and more specificly orders from Bejing or Moscow.

See one problem the US had was it was fooled by its own jingoisms.
There is no such thing as "communism" an sich. It like calling all icecream just "icecream"; there are lots of flavours of it (Leninism and Stalinism in the UDSSR, Maoism in China etc.). So the thought that there were "idependant" communist countries that did not get their agendas straight from Moscow esccaped the US for a long time, coz thats how the US run their empire: puppet states run from Washington.

Back to Diem and Vietnam again.

[edit on 2/5/2005 by Corinthas]



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
April 30, 2005 -- THE spectacular fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975, 30 years ago, had Americans glued to their television sets. Millions watched as long lines snaked up stairs at the American Embassy waiting to be rescued by the U.S. military.
It had been barely 10 years since the first U.S. Marine combat troops arrived in Vietnam at Danang. That decade had been punctuated by premature proclamations of victory, promises of "light at the end of the tunnel" and a Tet offensive that effectively destroyed the Viet Cong, but remained a potent Communist propaganda coup in Western media.

www.nypost.com...

I would strongly encourage each of you out there to read this. It may be shocking to many of you to learn a little truth about "nam". On April 30th 1975 Siagon fell. It would be another 98 days before I would be free from the bamboo cage that had been my home for the previous 210 days in Cambodia.

God bless you "Chet" where ever you are..........

God bless America Too.................


[edit on 30-4-2005 by DrHoracid]
THR TRUCH NEVER SLEEPS...THE FALL OF SAIGON CAN NOT FIND THE WAYS OF AMERICAN NATIONS AS US IS UNDER FULL CONTROL OF ISREAL.



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by Corinthas

There is no such thing as "communism" an sich. It like calling all icecream just "icecream"; there are lots of flavours of it (Leninism and Stalinism in the UDSSR, Maoism in China etc.). So the thought that there were "idependant" communist countries that did not get their agendas straight from Moscow esccaped the US for a long time, coz thats how the US run their empire: puppet states run from Washington.

Back to Diem and Vietnam again.

[edit on 2/5/2005 by Corinthas]


Discussing "flavors" of communisum is like discussing the different "flavors" of deadly snakes.....No one really cares which it whcih becuase each are deadly, each are snakes, each should be destroyed on sight.



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 07:38 AM
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DrHoracid I can see where your anguish comes from my dad gave an eye and is deaf in one ear thanks to the Vietnam war.
Vietnam proves that you cant win a limted war every time American air power put the VC on the back foot the do gooders would stop the bombing handing the advantage back to the VC.
Some thoughts.
Jungle warfare wasnt one of the US militarys strong points not a good thing when your fighting in that part of the world.
I remember reading when Diggers entered a villiage where the poorest people lived they expected to find a bunch of commies but instead they found the locals were happy to see the aussies and the locals were also happy that the VC wouldnt be seizing any Rice.
Large numbers of conventnal troops werent the best way to fight the VC special forces seemed to get the best results.
There people who were loyal to South Vietnam but it only took one traitor to kill 100 loyal personal.



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
God bless America Too.................

They took me to the hospital and I still don't know what the did with Chet. Been trying to find out for 30 years. He took that hit for me.

The brass said I was some kind of "hero".........they gave me this thing to pin on my chest..........BS......Chet was the hero.........he died in my place and I still don't know where he "is" today.

Sorry for the RANT.............became a psychologist to understand why Chet took that hit and why I'm still here and he isn't.


Doc, Chet took that hit for you b/c he was a fellow warrior. You would have done the same for him, I'm sure. Trying to bring him out, against those hellish odds, is heroic as hell. Don't discount your self like that.


Semper Fidelis



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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I think McNamara has gone on the record to state that (due to the terribly high stakes involved) during the cold war emergency of Cuba the US (and USSR for that matter) invested a lot of time, effort and manpower into trying to work out what their opponents were thinking and where the other was coming from and maintained some degree of contact (and still almost got it wrong with the paranoia on each side feeding off of the other).

That didn't really happen with Vietnam. It wasn't treated so seriously (certainly not for a long long time).

This led IMO to the USA (ironically of all people) being unable to appreciate 'the - real - big picture'.

The USA couldn't see a movement for independance for what it was - ie ultimately unstoppable.

They side-tracked themselves with futile nonsense about defending the indigenous supporters of collonialism and stopping communism, Russian expansion and the whole domino theory stuff which Vietnam was absolutely not about (as proved by subsequent events in SE Asia); sadly at huge cost for all concerned.


[edit on 2-5-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
The brass said I was some kind of "hero".........they gave me this thing to pin on my chest..........BS......Chet was the hero.........he died in my place and I still don't know where he "is" today.

Sorry for the RANT.............became a psychologist to understand why Chet took that hit and why I'm still here and he isn't.

Ok enough now. I talked to damn much about this, just still pissed off.


I understand Doc. Its took me years and I will never understand why I lived while those around me died. Its been 35 years and I can still see the faces hear the sounds and smell the death. I wake up in the midle of the night and can smell burning bodies. I remember laying in the mud choking on my own blood thinking I would never see my family again and after living through it wondering how I could ever face them after the things I had done.

I rarely post in these type of threads because it is just to painful for me to talk about.

I wont post in this one again, either.

[edit on 2-5-2005 by Amuk]



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Discussing "flavors" of communisum is like discussing the different "flavors" of deadly snakes.....No one really cares which it whcih becuase each are deadly, each are snakes, each should be destroyed on sight.


Oh so when you rush to hospital after being bitten by a hyperthetical snake and they ask what kind was it.... i am comforted by the fact that your proposed reply will be along the lines of "No one really cares which it whcih becuase each are deadly, each are snakes, each should be destroyed on sight." .


And it was EXACTLY that kind of ignorance i was trying to illustrate, but you've gone and given us the epitome.
You dont happen to work for thae State Department do you?



[edit on 2/5/2005 by Corinthas]



posted on May, 2 2005 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Corinthas
So the thought that there were "idependant" communist countries that did not get their agendas straight from Moscow esccaped the US for a long time, coz thats how the US run their empire: puppet states run from Washington.


But it's true that most comunist countries were just USSR puppets (except the China block and Yugoslavia and Romania). You cannot say something like this about UK, France or Germany.

And about the USSR helping to the NV... During some parts of war the american bombers were forbiden to bomb not completed NVA SAM sites because the US goverment feared they could kill russian engineers completing them!!!


[edit on 2-5-2005 by longbow]




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