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Pushing free speech too far?

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posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:08 AM
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I am merely a high school student at the school the following takes place at, so you won't find this in any news article (that I am aware of). It is all first-hand account information.

About a week ago, in the quad at my school (large gathering area in the middle of the school), there was a demonstration of what was being called free speech. Some students from the school, who also happened to be members of the youth group at a popluar local church, were on the stage, microphones in hand, reading from a bible set upon a podium on the stage. Strike one.

I couldn't take some of the "facts" they had to defend themselves (Such as... how everything would crumble without religion... if religion means only Christianity), so I walked away, only to be pulled back by a friend of mine saying I needed to see what they were doing. What they were doing turns out, was pointing to each member of their "audience" and shouting sinner, even attempting to pull attention of those innocently walking buy trying to buy lunch, and telling them they are sinners. Strike two, and the most shocking to me.

Now then, around the beginning of this, they had said if anyone disagrees with what they are doing, they can sign a clipboard near the stage. After a few brave ones waded through the mass of fanatical teenage christians to sign, the clipboard was TAKEN AWAY. Not another word of it. They went on till the end of lunch with their preaching (no better word for it) and now plan to do another revolution (why they call it the revolution, I do not know). Strike three.

Many many students approached the prinicple, who told each one that he wanted to not allow the students this "right", but it was fine due to freedom of speech. Im not too sure about that one by the way, I know it isnt the same, but it makes me think of Justice Kennedy and his coercion test.

So then, I am curious as to what fellow ATS members think of this, and it being veiled with freedom of speech. Even if it is fully their right under such (which I doubt in this case, public school, closed campus, and so on), don't you believe they took it way too far? They even made a good Jewish friend of mine began to cry, she has only lived in America for about 6 years, was born in Israel, poor girl.




posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:51 AM
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I think that is going way to far.

Your principle is wrong, while they are protected to preach on street corners, they are not allowed, by federal jurisdiction to preach at a school while it is in session.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:55 AM
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And i'm sure free speach only applies if your not verbally assaulting other people... which is what calling people sinners is.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by iori_komei
I think that is going way to far.

Your principle is wrong, while they are protected to preach on street corners, they are not allowed, by federal jurisdiction to preach at a school while it is in session.


I was thinking the same thing, however, according to our principal, before school, after school, and DURING LUNCH are not considered "school hours". Which, though seemingly true, makes no sense being as it is a closed campus.


[edited for grammar]

[edit on 30-4-2005 by IMPerial]



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 04:46 AM
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Originally posted by iori_komei
I think that is going way to far.

Your principle is wrong, while they are protected to preach on street corners, they are not allowed, by federal jurisdiction to preach at a school while it is in session.


not true, free speech goes both ways, just because it offends you doesnt mean they cant say whatever they want in public.

as long as they arent violent, or otherwise breaking the law its fine.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 04:52 AM
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Watch the South Park episode Christian Rock Hard, and wait until right near the end of the episode. Observe how Cartman scatters the assembled crowd of Christians, with repetition of a single 2 word phrase.

Try it out, it should send them scurryin'.






posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 05:22 AM
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Just kick off your own speech campign the next day, maybe your new theme could be "Jesus Was A Mushroom", that always gets them fired up, then when they don't let you make your speech from equal facilities with equal time, sue the school for discrimination and use the settlement the County offers to build a big mushroom statue in honor of their new found sense of equality.


Edit:
Oh yeah, and learn how to write a press release before you file your litigation, if it hits any of the local media, you can count on finding a lawyer to take the case, preferably find one that lost the last District Court Judge election. Small town politics, use them or they use you.


[edit on 30-4-2005 by twitchy]



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 10:28 AM
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Jesus did not go around calling people sinners. They knew their estate in life and called out to him for healing. Back in those days people thought every illness was due to their own sins or the sins of their forebears. Those who needed help the most were often reluctant to engage in the politics of calling attention to their "sins." Asking forgiveness requires acknowledgment from an individual of shortcomings. It was a far different paradigm from ancient days to today about a person's sinful condition.

Perhaps the entire evangelical approach is too self centered, and what people ask is self conscious role playing and drama rather than anything so deep in matters of the spirit. It becomes a game and a rite of passage to go about with conditions on one's salvation. "No admission of sin, no entrance is possible for you." But what about people who simply obtain a joy in the Lord, and feel forgiven for any sins save for the outward expression of it? People can be way ahead of the outward evangelists when it comes to matters of salvation, faith, and a road to understanding. One could find oneself at a crossroads, where those demands for theater are irrelevant within oneself, but a social group of Christianity would reject a person without the "sinner's prayer," as if that were the front end of all things.

The entire process seems too conscious, lacking in spontaneity, and placed into a cookie cutter. Christians would do better to do things more as Jesus did it, rather than as a Church does it, or in this case as these students do it.

[edit on 30-4-2005 by SkipShipman]



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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What concerns me is what they're going to do with that list of people who objected. It wouldn't suprise me if the radical religious right types are compiling enemies lists for future use.

Make no mistake, these people intend to take over the country, by whatever means necessary. When they do, don't expect a lot of "Cristian compassion" from them if you don't toe their line. More like a bullet to the head and a short trip to a mass grave. They are fanatics every bit as willing to kill "unbelievers" as Al Quaeda.

It's funny, groups like the ACLJ defend this stuff, saying not allowing public schools to be used as fora for forced indoctrination constitutes religious repression. I wonder how they'd feel if radical Muslims were staging rallies at public schools where they try to browbeat and frighten students into converting?



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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xmotex
Muslims would never be allowed to get away with this, not in a million years.

The school would call the DHS and describe what was happening, and helicopters would be immediately deployed.

It's the fault of the citizens for not standing up to radicals of all stripes.

I mean, what is everybody waiting for? It's not like they have numbers on us! They're the minority, and they're trying to puff up and play like the big dog!



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Watch the South Park episode Christian Rock Hard, and wait until right near the end of the episode. Observe how Cartman scatters the assembled crowd of Christians, with repetition of a single 2 word phrase.


For those of us that don't watch South Park can you tell us what the 2 word phrase is?

I think it is wrong for the Principal to allow this to happen. This could be seen as a form of bullying which most schools do not permit. It is harrassment and should not be tolerated on school grounds.

What denomination are these "Christians". I am a member of the Episcopal church and I just have to shake my head when I hear stories like this. I was not raised that religion is about pointing the finger at non believers or that Satan is just around the corner waiting to get me and that demons are everywhere. I just don't get it.

I think a group of you should get together and confront the principal again. Talk about how this is harrassment and bullying and have parents get involved as well. If this happened at my daughters' school I would be in the Principals office faster than lightening and demanding explanations, and I would be speaking with the parents and church leaders of those who were involved in the 'revolution'.




Muslims would never be allowed to get away with this, not in a million years.


Oh really? Go to the University of California, Irvine campus some time. They have posters all over the place trying to convert people and they have all sorts of rallies. I'm not sure if they call people sinners, but there is a HUGE movement to convert people to Islam. It's very annoying when you walk onto a University campus and rather than seeing posters for University activites you are bombarded with giant signs that are pushing Islam on you.

Jemison



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
What concerns me is what they're going to do with that list of people who objected. It wouldn't suprise me if the radical religious right types are compiling enemies lists for future use.

Make no mistake, these people intend to take over the country, by whatever means necessary. When they do, don't expect a lot of "Cristian compassion" from them if you don't toe their line. More like a bullet to the head and a short trip to a mass grave. They are fanatics every bit as willing to kill "unbelievers" as Al Quaeda.

It's funny, groups like the ACLJ defend this stuff, saying not allowing public schools to be used as fora for forced indoctrination constitutes religious repression. I wonder how they'd feel if radical Muslims were staging rallies at public schools where they try to browbeat and frighten students into converting?




I could have written this passage, word for word, and substituted the word Christian for Liberal-Nazi-Muslim and a dozen other lovely "tags" used to describe people.

You say the ACLU defends this stuff? Do they reallY? The last time I checked, it was Liberal lawfirms like the ACLU that fought to get the Ten Commandments off government property. Also, while the ACLU rolls around in $300,000,000 in donations, Conservative lawfirms, such as the Thomas Moore Center for Truth are starving for funds.

BUT..I don't want to digress

When growing up in Salt Lake City, I attended a Mormon Seminary class offered in it's own building, and yes, it was on school property. Did I march out, into the streets, with a MAC-10 and start mowing people down, KNOWING that some of them weren't Mormon? Of course not!

The real danger here is Fanaticism and Absolutism. In the wrong heads they are dangerous. Does that make preachers dangerous? Hmm...I'd say no more dangerous than the R&B rap star that insists the only life to lead is one filled with Limos, cheap tricks in the backseat, and WAY too much weed (or wine).

Strange...I guess you don't have a problem with THAT blowing out the school's PA system...



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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They went too far, Yeah it was freedom of speech and I see nothing wrong with people expressing thier ideas of religion as long as the school does not mandate atendence.

Anyways, If your gonna try to sell or convert someone to your beliefs it seems like people would take a better sales pitch and seem more like a saleman so they do not scare people off.

BTW, Im a Chrisitan.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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It's funny, groups like the ACLJ defend this stuff, saying not allowing public schools to be used as fora for forced indoctrination constitutes religious repression. I wonder how they'd feel if radical Muslims were staging rallies at public schools where they try to browbeat and frighten students into converting?


The ACLU fights this kind of stuff......if it were anything else they would cry freedom of speech, but since it's chrisitan they say it's violating the rights of others.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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Uh, ACLU is defending Rush Limbuagh in his drug case. So saying they won't do something stupid or whatever is wrong. RL has called the ACLU the right hand of the devil, but cried and begged them to defend him.


Anyways, thius is when you start a HeilHitler chant or a Lalalalalalalalala thing to compare these people to the suicide bombers who do things for religon. Or have a little group get together and do what they did, but have a clipboard out asking anyone who thinks the earth is flat/center/6,000 years old to sign it and see how many people are going to be stuck at fast food joints when they graduate.

What you do is what "someone"(not going to name) did and get all the charts and fancy things together about all the people the church/christianity has killed through the years and pass it out. Helps if you have a printer or a friend who does. Anyways, so you get the millions killed in Inquisitions, trials, slaughters, massacers, crusades, Indians, and the people killed due to everything that would save them was banned/satan, or died because something like cats were killed, so something spread and wiped out a 3rd of the population of Europe when it shouldn't have.(Black Plague) Then a section on the genocide of Africa by the church today. No GE Food, no medicine, no condoms, nothing that would save millions from disease and starvation for it is playing god/sin/satan.

Anyways, do it at lunch time, and if you have friends in other lunch periods ask them to pass them out also. Use freedom of speech if anyone hassles you. But if asked politely by a teacher or someone who deserves respect(ok, so not all teachers deserve respect, but still) to stop, do so. No point in getting in trouble.

Also, if you want, get all the Rape Babies, Kill Everyone, slaughter the Masses, so forth, quotes in the bible and print them up and do the same. A good one to use is the one ordering christians to kill kids who act up, it's in the same chapter and in most cases the same page as the Gays are Evil quote. Have fun.(BTW, I want to sign the clipboard, or, make a clipboard and do the same thing, anyone who doesn't want to be raped by a priest, sign this clipboard)



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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Jemison
I can't provide the quote, it would be a violation of T&C.


And putting up posters recruiting for your religion is perfectly legal. That's a far cry from gathering in a high school quad and screaming and pointing fingers, intimidating people, and calling them sinners. That's harrassment. Totally different IMO.

The bottom line is, everyone is entitled to their religion, except in cases where their religion infringes on the rights of others. That's illegal, and immoral.

I was raised Episcopal, and they're the nicest bunch of Christians you could hope to meet, in terms of refraining from the fire and brimstone nonsense, and being accepting of people's differences. Hell, we had a divorced, gay, female priest.
If that's not progressive, I don't know what is.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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Methodists aren't to bad either, met two guys who worked for one and nothing about me going to hell, just how to beat a rubix cube in seven moves.

Anyways, again, do the handout thing, so people learn about the loving and peaceful church/christianity and the history of killing they have.


jhh

posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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I find the Lutheran church is heading down this path, especially with its "youth groups" and "contemporary service." What has happened is old conservative membership has been declining. While the movement exist among the younger(under 50) more radical crowd, I am now seeing 40+ parents joining in, that a lot of churches are trying to tap into. The result has been a group of immature, hypocritical born agains running around thinking they have the ability to absorb the spirit and the responsiblity to convert the hell bound.

The church, especially the Lutheran church, hasn't been the same since I was younger. The first day our new pastor spent 20 minutes preaching against abortion and gays, and trying to get a portion of our offering to go to right wing causes, and passing around a petition to ban gay marriage, I have been without a church and do not plan on returning to any. And just because I refuse to support a prolife group doesn't mean I support abortion. I just don't care, and I am not wasting my time and money on two issues. That isn't why I went to church.



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 04:51 PM
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Preaching of a specific religion on school grounds, is not protected by free speech, its unconstituitional.

The religious already enjoy tax free status for their churches, they certainly don't have any right to use tax payer funded materials or property for their fanatical preaching.

I suggest a letter to the editors of your local papers, as well as a petition campaign to remove the principal from his position.

Now THAT is protected by free speech.

Organize your thoughts and objections to this event in essay form, and hand that out at the next parent teachers meeting, as well as the town council meeting. Fear no evil! Stand up for your rights. Have your english teachers go over your essay before presenting it to the public, so you don't sound like an idiot.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 12:27 AM
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Originally posted by Legalizer
Preaching of a specific religion on school grounds, is not protected by free speech, its unconstituitional.

The religious already enjoy tax free status for their churches, they certainly don't have any right to use tax payer funded materials or property for their fanatical preaching.

I suggest a letter to the editors of your local papers, as well as a petition campaign to remove the principal from his position.

Now THAT is protected by free speech.

Organize your thoughts and objections to this event in essay form, and hand that out at the next parent teachers meeting, as well as the town council meeting. Fear no evil! Stand up for your rights. Have your english teachers go over your essay before presenting it to the public, so you don't sound like an idiot.



Both students and teachers would be more than willing to have this principal of ours removed. I have already considered a letter to the local paper, and I will write it, that is, if they decide to do this again like they say they will. I'll just make myself sit through it all to get every piece of information I can.


Originally posted by James the Lesser
What you do is what "someone"(not going to name) did and get all the charts and fancy things together about all the people the church/christianity has killed through the years and pass it out. Helps if you have a printer or a friend who does. Anyways, so you get the millions killed in Inquisitions, trials, slaughters, massacers, crusades, Indians, and the people killed due to everything that would save them was banned/satan, or died because something like cats were killed, so something spread and wiped out a 3rd of the population of Europe when it shouldn't have.(Black Plague) Then a section on the genocide of Africa by the church today. No GE Food, no medicine, no condoms, nothing that would save millions from disease and starvation for it is playing god/sin/satan.


You, good sir, are a genius

And to whoever originally did that




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