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Wake up!! Islam is coming in your back door.

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posted on Jun, 11 2005 @ 11:54 AM
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Sectarianism is all about selectively using *whatever* Holy book accident of birth has placed in your hands.

Whether it be Islam in the middle east or Christianity in Northern Ireland, those that use their book in this manner are not unknown.

Fundamentalists are a scary scourge the world over.

Frankly I could care less what version of religion they use to try and impose their religio-political ideas and views on the rest of the world.

Fascism comes in many guises and yes, sometimes it's a so-called Christian guise and sometimes it's under a Muslim guise, or others......but basically it all comes down to, IMO, using a 'my invisible friend' routine to force others to conform to anothers' orders.

I say a hearty "get lost!" to any and all of that.

......and given the numbers and obvious peaceable inclination of the vast majority of the UK's (small) Muslim population no, I don't see Islam as any kind of serious threat to the wider populace in the UK either.

[edit on 11-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]




posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 05:16 AM
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Sminkey,

I guess what it means is that religion in the end causes more harm than good.

If people could keep the "be nice to each other" bits and ditch the "our religion is the one, true religion" nonsense then we would all be better off.

Cheers

BHR



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by BillHicksRules
I guess what it means is that religion in the end causes more harm than good.


- I do tend towards this view myself (although I do not deny some find great comfort, inspiration, joy etc etc in the religion of their choice).


If people could keep the "be nice to each other" bits and ditch the "our religion is the one, true religion" nonsense then we would all be better off.


- Quite,

Sadly it appears that if you really, really, really, really, really, believe in it all (especially "in your heart") you may do all sorts of barbaric horrors cos God will understand your real motives were higher than the brutality which was entirely incidental and just had to be gone through.......for His greater g(l)ory.

Jebus H Creast.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 12:18 AM
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On a sidenote, I am almost certain that people like Ann Coulter and Tucker Carlson are celebrating the victory of that ultraconservative guy in Iran... with champagne, probably.

Why? Because it means they get more arguments to stir up hate against Iran and Muslims... and stirring up hate against Iran and Muslims means better ratings for their shows or columns.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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In light of the recent London attacks, there are at least some who are finally waking up to the fact that the literal interpretation of the Quran exists even among the so-called "moderate" Muslims. This articleshows the realization by at least one journalist who is waking up; a journalist who has before defended Islam by proclaiming extremism as a bastardized version of Islam and the primary cause of the violent jihadist mentality. But when even "moderates" spew the wretched verses of the Quran as justification for murder under the guise of Jihad, even the peaceful, non-violent Muslims are losing the battle for their religion. Non-violent Mulsims have been woefully silent about the "hijacking" of their religion which makes me wonder what they really want--freedom and democracy; or Islamic rule/law.

Here is an excerpt:


It's time we accepted the difficult truth: many of the Muslims we invite to live in Australia want to destroy us.

FOR four years, since the September 11 attacks, I've begged our Islamic leaders to drive extremists from their mosques.
For four years I've also reassured you that most Muslims here are moderate.

I've even insisted they have some moderate Muslim leaders, and last week again endorsed Sheik Fehmi Naji El-Imam of Preston mosque as a man of peace.

How eager I was to praise. Heavens, I described as "moderate" the Melbourne-based Islamic Information Services Network of Australia (IISNA), which purged from its website articles I'd noted claiming democracy was a sin, Jews were behind September 11 and Western society was a pollution.

But was I just kidding myself? Isn't it becoming terribly clear that Islam -- at least the Islam of Australia's Arab sheiks and imams -- is hostile to our society?

Isn't it now obvious we should never have let into our country those imams who now preach hate?

Isn't the evidence that some cultures -- Muslim Arab ones -- pose more problems than their importation at this rate is worth? Isn't multiculturalism making these problems worse?

I know these are dangerous, hurtful questions. I also know many Muslims will feel deeply offended, loving this country and obeying its laws, and I wish only I heard from them far more often.

But the London bombings, perpetrated by home-grown Muslims, makes our silence on such issues not a sign of civility, but suicide.

So let me admit that the past few days have been terrible for those of us who thought we could count on Muslim leaders for real help against the Muslim extremists who threaten us.

Such setbacks we've had.

Only last week I'd praised Sheik Fehmi as a good man, who'd condemned the London bombings. But a day later he was asked about fellow Melbourne sheik Mohammed Omran, a friend of a suspected al-Qaida boss, who'd claimed September 11 was really the work of a US-based conspiracy.

"He is entitled to his own thinking," Fehmi replied meekly. Then, asked if Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida terrorists had committed those attacks, he added: "We cannot say. We do not know these things."

How can Muslim leaders fight terrorism, when the most moderate of them won't condemn even bin Laden, or admit that monster's self-confessed guilt?

Fehmi was not my only disappointment. I checked the IISNA site this week, and among the announcements of classes and prayers found this advice to a reader who'd asked if it was a sin to kill non-Muslims:

"In regard to non-Muslims who are at war with the Muslims and do not have a peace treaty with the Muslims or are not living under Muslim rule, then Muslims are commanded to kill them, because Allah says . . . 'Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you.' "

If that's advice passed on by a "moderate" Islamic group, what must the radical ones here say?



If you non-violent "moderates" want to save your culture and your religion then you need to do more than be silent. Anything else makes you part of the problem.




Mod Edit: to add quote box

[edit on 24-7-2005 by kinglizard]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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What we don't need, recent attacks or not, are the lunatics and their siren-song superficial 'answers' that effectively ask us to go along with becoming the barbarian ouselves.......as if that would 'solve' anything.

According to the most recent census in the UK Muslims are 2.5 - 3% of our 60million population.

They aren't taking over and the overwhelming majority of them get along with everybody just fine.

The extremists are just that, extremists and attempting to get the majority to go along with a different brand of extremism to tackle that tiny minority of extremists is just stupid IMO.

......and also a stupid lie as it claims to be able to make everyone either 'completely safe' when it cannot or 'more safe' when it is hardly the only 'route' to that and in any case the ever harder line has a track record of failure.

The whole point about the strength of our society is that we are not like that, it is in fact our very freedoms that make us strong and differentiate us from that which the terrorist wants.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 11:53 AM
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You have voted sminkeypinkey for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


Smink.

Thought I would use one on you, give you a chance of beating me this month
....I seem to be collecting a few so far...hehe

Seriously, good point and giving in to our base desires to lash out makes us no better than they.

[edit on 24/7/05 by stumason]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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According to the World Factbook:

Religions of the World:
Christians 32.84%
Muslims 19.9%
Hindus 13.29%
Buddhists 5.92%
Sikhs 0.39%
Jews 0.23%
other religions 12.63%
non-religious 12.44%
atheists 2.36% (2003 est.)

Religions in the US:
Christian 76%
Mormon 2%
Jewish 1%
Muslim 1%
other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

If there's any religion that appears to be disproportionate or in a position to 'take over the country' (or even the world) ... it ain't Islam...



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
According to the most recent census in the UK Muslims are 2.5 - 3% of our 60million population.


So according to your numbers there are approximately 1.8 million Muslims in the UK. Based on this thread: WAR: 25% of British Muslims Sympathise With London Terror Attackers approximately 250,000 UK Muslims are a potential threat. Doesn't sound like the "tiny minority" of extremist to me. Glad you're living there and not me!! Of course, we (in the US) have our own tiny minority of extremists to deal with as well. And in time, I believe that people will wake up to the fact that this problem is real and it is a threat to our way of life.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If there's any religion that appears to be disproportionate or in a position to 'take over the country' (or even the world) ... it ain't Islam...



It ain't the numbers. It's the means to an end they use to propogate their ideology of hatred and intolerance; which includes murder of innocent people who don't hold their views.

Why are the so-called moderates so silent on this issue? Why is it that the ones defending this ideology are non-Muslims?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
So according to your numbers there are approximately 1.8 million Muslims in the UK. Based on this thread: WAR: 25% of British Muslims Sympathise With London Terror Attackers approximately 250,000 UK Muslims are a potential threat. Doesn't sound like the "tiny minority" of extremist to me.


- Having a degree of understanding for or 'sympathy' with why those people did what they did is nothing like the same as condone.......and that poll makes no such "25%" claim.

Todays Observer cuts the spin and reproduces the 'YouGov' poll properly and refers to 6% who claim the attacks were "justified".

Almost one in four British Muslims sympathise with the motives of suicide bombers, according to a YouGov poll published in yesterday's Daily Telegraph. More than half say that, whether they sympathise or not, they understand why some people behave in the way they do.

The research also showed that nearly one in three thinks that Western society is decadent and immoral and should be brought to an end. Sixteen per cent of British Muslims told the survey that they do not feel loyal towards Britain and 6 per cent went as far as saying the London bombings were justified.

www.guardian.co.uk...

- That 6% is very worrying but again is nothing like the same as claiming 6% want to commit terrorist acts.

I can only wonder at the motives of those determined to imply otherwise.

In the UK the Muslim community leaders have been very vocal in their condemation of these events.......indeed lately Muslims have been vocal in their condemnation of such events worldwide and have challenged those attempting to claim the right to pronounce 'Jihad' and make extremist interpretations of the Koran.


[edit on 24-7-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Of course, we (in the US) have our own tiny minority of extremists to deal with as well.

If you acknowledge that we (in the US) have our own extremists and we are 76% Christian, why are you not worried about the Christian element in the US?

And I don't know how strong any of you are in your religion, but there aren't many Christians I know who would be easily swayed to become a Muslim. If a Christian or anyone converts to or takes up a religion, it's because they feel something lacking in their religion or their life.

I'm not really sure what the concern is. That normal, gentle people are going to convert to Islam and become raving lunatic terrorists? Or that Muslims are going to immigrate into the US and bring with them their extreminsts element? Or something totally different. What are you afraid of?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you acknowledge that we (in the US) have our own extremists and we are 76% Christian, why are you not worried about the Christian element in the US?


Either you misunderstood me or I didn't make my point clear: We in the US have our own Islamic "extremists"--regardless of the numbers of Chritians here. And I am concerned with the Christian element here foisting their own religious-based morals on me and our Constitution---but at least they aren't going around kidnapping and decapitation people in the name of God. At least they aren't blowing themselves, and innocents, into oblivion, because others don't believe as they do. While Christianity has its own crosses to bear in terms of intolerance, at least they don't espouse wanton killings for their beliefs.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
In the UK the Muslim community leaders have been very vocal in their condemation of these events.......indeed lately Muslims have been vocal in their condemnation of such events worldwide and have challenged those attempting to claim the right to pronounce 'Jihad' and make extremist interpretations of the Koran.


Really? Please post a/some link(s).

[edit on 24-7-2005 by Freedom_for_sum]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Really? Please post a/some link(s).


- I have several times already around ATS.

Try these.......

The following is the full text of a fatwa issued by the British Muslim Forum, with the approval of more than 500 UK Muslim clerics, scholars and imams, on Monday 18 July:
We wish to express our sincere condolences to the families of all the victims of the London attacks. We pray for the swift recovery of all those who are recovering from injuries.

There are many questions emerging from the London bombings. One of the most important questions is what does Islam say about it?

To answer this question Muslim scholars, clerics and Imams from all over the UK have been consulted to issue this formal legal opinion (fatwa) so that Muslims and non-Muslims can be clear about Islam's stance on such acts.

Severe condemnation

On behalf of over 500 clerics, scholars and Imams the British Muslim Forum issues the following religious decree:

Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives.

There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are haram - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London are criminals not martyrs.

Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam.

The Holy Koran declares:

"Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32).

Islam teaches us to be caring towards all of Allah's (God's) creation, not just mankind. The Prophet of Islam who was described as "a mercy to the worlds" said: "All creation is the family of Allah and that person is most beloved to Allah who is kind and caring towards His family."

Islam's position is clear and unequivocal: murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.

We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world.

We pray for peace, security and harmony to triumph in multicultural Great Britain.

news.bbc.co.uk...


Muslim leaders in the UK have reacted with shock to the news that the London bombers may have been British-born young people from their community.
The Muslim Council of Britain's secretary general, Iqbal Sacranie, said it had received the news with "anguish, shock and horror".

"Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers," he said.

Sir Iqbal said the "criminals" who bombed London needed to be distanced from the Islamic faith.


Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: "The criminality of anyone should not be associated with their nationality, ethnicity or religion.

"That sort of association is totally unjust and xenophobic and can create a great injustice by promoting prejudice that could fuel further violence against innocent people. A criminal is a criminal, is a criminal, full stop."

The Muslim Council of Britain said it had been planning an inter-faith national demonstration in protest at the bombs on London's transport network last Thursday that killed at least 52 people.

news.bbc.co.uk...


South Asian leaders have condemned the attacks on London that killed at least 50 people and injured many others.
The leaders of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka and Nepal have all sent messages of sympathy to the British government

news.bbc.co.uk...


Leading Islamic scholars in Pakistan have issued a decree against suicide attacks, describing them as forbidden if carried out in a Muslim country.
The decree has been authorised by 58 religious leaders, representing all schools of Islamic thought in Pakistan including the minority Shia community

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4556619.stm[url]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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Sminkey

I would like to see the list of names of those 500 UK clerics/imams that issued this fatwa. I would also be interested in whether or not:

This cleric is on that list

or this guy

or this UK cleric

or this guy

or him

This is all from just a little and quick research.

The two names you mention in your post are: Iqbal Sacranie and Massoud Shadjareh. Iqbal, despite his prestigious position, has a history of labeling those who ask questions critical of Islam "Islamaphobes", rather than attempting to address the issues at the core of those question.

Massoud Shadjareh, without ANY knowledge as to the guilt or innocence of the released Gitmo prisoners, protests their custody by British police proclaiming their innocence and making demands of their release.

While the former has been Knighted (short sightedness on the part of the Queen) I believe he has a lot to answer to as an authoritive figure of UK's muslim communities.

And as far as the Fatwa issued supported by the 500 clerics; like I said, I would like to see the list of these names so that I could research for myself what is truly in their hearts.

The foriegn leaders condemning the actions of the terroists is simply a wise political move--nothing else. I would ask these leaders how it is that this "extreme" form of Islam has gained so much momentum within their nations? What is it about their policies that breeds these "extremists"? Their condemnation would mean a lot more if they would develope policies to eradicate the extreme jihadism that is so pervasive in their countries--included Mushahraf (sp). While he seems to have done a few things, I believe it falls well short of what's required to fix Pakistan's problems.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I would like to see the list of names of those 500 UK clerics/imams that issued this fatwa.

Would that convince you? Really? Would anything convince you that the Muslims aren't just a mad bunch of radicals who want all Americans dead?

You're going to think what you want and look for proof of what you want to believe and discount any indication that you may be mistaken, so why should anyone bother to prove something that you're not going to believe anyway?


You're not in search of the truth, you're in search of confirmation of what you beieve to be the truth.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I would like to see the list of names of those 500 UK clerics/imams that issued this fatwa.

Would that convince you? Really? Would anything convince you that the Muslims aren't just a mad bunch of radicals who want all Americans dead?


I've never claimed that I believe all Muslims are a bunch of radicals out to kill Americans. If you read my posts you'd see that I've acknowledged that there are peaceful Muslims--but that doesan't negate the tough questions that Muslim leaders are going to have to answer regarding the Islamic ideology and its place in western societies. That doesn't negate the fact that instead of answering these questions most Muslim leaders point their finger to others and take on the victim role; when instead, it is thousands of people worldwide in recent times who have been slaughtered at the hands of Muslims and in the name of Islam.

Why don't you stop apologizing for them and feeding into their victim mentality and start answering the tough questions (if you're Msulim) or asking the tough questions (if you're non-Muslim).



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
If you non-violent "moderates" want to save your culture and your religion then you need to do more than be silent. Anything else makes you part of the problem.


Yes, because obviously even single Muslim mothers who don't have that much money have a lot of power over the extremist faction in their religion.

How about this one... I hold all Christians responsible for the fundamentalist born-again Christians who want to convert everybody, outlaw homosexuality and bomb abortion clinics... unless they speak out against this, all Christians, everywhere, are part of the problem. Are you a Christian? Are you silent on this? Then you are GUILTY.

If you're a Christian and what I've just posted makes you angry... imagine how Muslims everywhere must feel when they hear that they're all responsible for what extremists do.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Sminkey

I would like to see the list of names of those 500 UK clerics/imams that issued this fatwa.


- I have reproduced this proclaimation, if you want to look further into it and try and pull it to pieces that is up to you, but here you are, it exists as I said it did.

I suggest the importance within it lies in the fact it exists and in words composing it.


The two names you mention in your post are: Iqbal Sacranie and Massoud Shadjareh. Iqbal, despite his prestigious position, has a history of labeling those who ask questions critical of Islam "Islamaphobes", rather than attempting to address the issues at the core of those question.


- OK, this is acompletely different issue and we can all have opinions about this but I would suggest that of you think 'Islamophobia' is something dredged up from Iqbal's imagination alone I'd suggest you are pretty closed to what has been going on and been said lately.


Massoud Shadjareh, without ANY knowledge as to the guilt or innocence of the released Gitmo prisoners, protests their custody by British police proclaiming their innocence and making demands of their release.


- "Gitmo" again is a completely different issue. I doubt whether Muslims in the UK are the only ones to have grave reservations over the state of affairs there.
Given the suspension of 'due process' it appears no-one but the US gov has any knowledge as to what the inmates there are supposed to be guilty of.


While the former has been Knighted (short sightedness on the part of the Queen) I believe he has a lot to answer to as an authoritive figure of UK's muslim communities.


- Hmmmm, well obviously not such "a lot to answer for" (eh, what is it you imagine he has done?) considering he was not refused an invitation to meet our PM and security people to try and thrash out a strategy for dealing with the current situation.


The foriegn leaders condemning the actions of the terroists is simply a wise political move--nothing else.


- Naaa, you can't get away with that.
They either did speak out or they didn't and contrary to your information and obvious expectation they did.

Anything else is just trying to have it both ways.


I would ask these leaders how it is that this "extreme" form of Islam has gained so much momentum within their nations? What is it about their policies that breeds these "extremists"?


- How about the fact that during the Soviet-Afghan war it was the USA that helped spread this kind of extremism?

That isn't the same as saying 'oh the Americans are all to blame' for this but it is part of understanding how we got where we are.


Their condemnation would mean a lot more if they would develope policies to eradicate the extreme jihadism that is so pervasive in their countries--included Mushahraf (sp). While he seems to have done a few things, I believe it falls well short of what's required to fix Pakistan's problems.


- They have condemned. They are becoming far more vocal.

As for Pakistan this simply misunderstands General Pervez Musharraf's position.
He is doing what he can but he cannot do everything (look how many Pakistani leaders are dictators and removed by murder).

Tony Blair was quite correct today; there is no excuse for terrorism and we should not waste our time rationalising the irrational.

However neither should we waste our time and effort alienating those whom we would be wise to make allies with and who can help (possibly the most) to tackle this phenomenon.

You might also consider that not all the information you think you know is complete.
I tried to find a link for this but it's too new, maybe it'll appear tomorrow.

Channel 4 news in the UK tonight revealed (on the 7pm news program) that Muslims in south London reported one of the failed bombers to Police as suspicious some time ago.
So I would refrain from making aggressive attacking sweeping statements about exactly what you think the Muslim leadership(s) here have been doing or not doing if I were you.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by sminkeypinkey]




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