Wake up!! Islam is coming in your back door.

Originally posted by Trustnone
Islam being established around 600 A.D. by the prophet muhammed who claimed to have spoken to the angel Gabriel. He revealed god's word to muhammed who later recorded it. Muhammed was in his 40's i think and first converted some family members in the mecca area before being chased out and fled to medina. any way soljah this right of the top of my head but a good book for you to read would be "why i am not a muslim" concerning some descrepensies in in the koran. While i will not make such an ignorant statement like "i know more than you" etc. and i am not muslim but there are a number of things i do know about it. some of the pillars of islam etc. please dont assume that because i disagree with islam i know nothing of it. liberals know little of it either.

By the way we did not start this war, they did after 9/11 and declared a holy war on us.

I didnt ask you if you know about Prohpet Muhammed - the question was, what do you know about Islam. I know that you "know some stuff" about Islam, but judging by your answers, like 'liberal communist' propaganda, If you'd like to become a muslim than go right ahead, wrap a turbin around your face and shoot guns in the air, rape women and children and become utter scum, islam is about one thing and it's not peace - I can see that you have learned alot of thigns about Islam, yes. Are these the Pillars about Islam, that you know of?

By the Way, this War was started a long time ago, and not by any turban-wearing-women-raping islamic fundamentalist - but by the Rich Greedy Ignorant Corporation, who really SEEK war, so that they can MAKE money with it. Oh yes, I forgot - you are going to blame me for a victim of liberal communist propaganda machine, that adores these wrap a turbin around your face and shoot guns in the air, rape women and children and become utter scum Muslims.

Maybe the fact that religion is based on social mores , de facto crowd control by a ruling elite, established in another distant ancient epoch, and should no longer be a rally point for war or seperatism....maybe that should enter in consideration.
I am devoutly spiritual & pray several times a day. But, I rarely attend services.....at one point the idea that another mortal is closer to God than me & capable of getting me closer, by virture of him wearing a cassock & holding a chalice, just stopped making sense.

Bravo BT

But I have grown to the point that I believe all we will here is the same one sided drivel coming from BOTH SIDES in the argument till someday hopefully they will wipe each other out and the rest of us that just want to live our lives in peace can finally be rid of them.

What is hilarious is watching them argue is like watching a man argue with his reflection in a mirror. Both sides spew the same lies and BS they accuse the other side of while trying to wrap themselves in the cloak righteousness.

They BOTH make me want to puke. Or laugh. Depending how many people they have slaughtered that day.

All in the cause of God and righteousness.....of course

[edit on 3-5-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Bout Time
Maybe the fact that religion is based on social mores , de facto crowd control by a ruling elite, established in another distant ancient epoch, and should no longer be a rally point for war or seperatism....maybe that should enter in consideration.
I am devoutly spiritual & pray several times a day. But, I rarely attend services.....at one point the idea that another mortal is closer to God than me & capable of getting me closer, by virture of him wearing a cassock & holding a chalice, just stopped making sense.

Some good points bout time. Unfortunately, in the real world, there are muslim children who are forced to memorize everything in the Qur'an and who are tought not to befriend Christians/Jews; that there is no religion other than Islam; and that non-believers and apostates are worthy only of death. They grow up with this crap and pass it on to the next generation. There are organizations who would love to test the limits of the Constitution by attempting to "introduce " children to Islam in public schools. There are organizations (CAIR) who label those who ask tough questions about Islam or who are critical of Islam as "Islamophobes" and use the legal system to silence its critics instead of addressing those tough questions/critics directly. I believe, despite how peaceful Muslims in general are, that they would love to see America become an Islamic nation. It was American Muslims who were seen in New Jersey celebrating in the streets when the twin towers were attacked.

I am posting this excelent article written by by Douglas J. Hagmann, Director of Northeast intelligence Network. It explains, in part, how political correctness and our unwillingness to see Islam for what it is could lead America into an Islamic nation several years hence.

2 May 2005: Over the last several decades, nearly every Muslim country and essentially the entire Muslim world has experienced a religious resurgence or the unmistakable revival of Islamic fundamentalism. Anti-Americanism has a vice-like hold on the entire population of the Islamic world, including those from countries considered to be moderate and our allies in our war on terror. Knowing this, the governments of our Muslim allies, as well as the prominent leaders of "moderate Muslim" groups in the U.S. have been reluctant, if not altogether silent, on condemning the terrorists who are allegedly acting in violation of the principals of the religion of Islam.

Political leaders, media personalities and other pundits describe Islam as a "religion of peace," stating that Muslims who kill in the name of their religion are not true Muslims. They insist that that the term "jihad" does not refer to a holy war, but a "personal moral struggle" against the evil within oneself – or some similar variation.

Commenting this past weekend on a recent "terror convention" in Iran, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice stated that recruiting suicide bombers in the name of Islam violates the fundamental tenets of "a great world religion." This violent cause "has nothing to do with Islam." Rice added:

"Islam is a peaceful religion. And so the notion that somehow flying airplanes into buildings or strapping a belt on yourself and blowing up other people is in the service of Islam is something, I think, that clearly perverts the religion and is resented by most respected Islamic scholars for very good reason. By the way, I think probably rejected too by most people, because who wants that to be the future for your children?"

Based on lengthy historical precedent, her statements lack the necessary acknowledgement that there are a great many Muslim people who stand willing to die for their faith. In America, we attempt to apply secular beliefs to make sense out of such terrorist acts as religious "martyrdom," suggesting that only a small percentage of Muslims are extremists. What about the larger numbers who display similar tendencies, especially those in the Muslim hotbeds of Islamic fundamentalism? We again apply secular logic to their fervent religious convictions, and suggest that dying for Allah is not their ultimate motive, and assert that they are merely pawns in a political struggle and are not really acting as “true” Muslims. By applying such characteristics to our enemy, we are able to be falsely comforted in the premise that we are fighting a relatively small group of thugs instead of throngs of people who possess centuries-old, deeply religious convictions and motivations.

Condolezza Rice's statements are alarming insofar as they are either based on misinformation or more likely, are deliberately sophistical. Perhaps they were made with the intent of maintaining the tenuous coalition of a handful of "moderate" Muslim countries reluctant involvement against the war on terror. Even in consideration of the most noble of causes, her statements serve to reinforce misconceptions that ushered in the attacks of 9/11. Fighting terrorism is one thing, but winning the war against Islamic terrorism is another. The latter requires moral clarity and honesty about the enemy we are fighting. To misunderstand or deliberately mischaracterize our enemy for the sake of political correctness is to adopt an inappropriate and inadequate strategy in this war, and is one that will lead us down a perilous path – the same path that we have maintained for the last 30 years.

We need to take a look at history to understand what is at stake and realize that we cannot afford to misunderstand the religious convictions of our enemy. Noted historian Bernard Lewis wrote the following:

"In the Muslim worldview the basic division of mankind is into the House of Islam (Dar al- Islam) and the House of War (Dar al-Harb). Ideally, the House of Islam is conceived as a single community. The logic of Islamic law, however, does not recognize the permanent existence of any other polity outside Islam. In time, in the Muslim view, all mankind will accept Islam or submit to Islamic rule. A treaty of peace between the Muslim state and a non-Muslim state was thus in theory impossible Such a truce, according to the jurists, could only be provisional. The name given by the Muslim jurists to this struggle is jihad."

Accordingly, those in disagreement with jihad as meaning a holy war are themselves apostates to their religion. They are the infidels who are perverting Islam, not those who engage in the armed struggle. Perhaps this is the reason so many so-called "moderate Muslims" have been silent on condemning the terrorists in acting in violation of the principals of the religion of Islam. Perhaps this is the reason we maintain military superiority, yet unprecedented vulnerability.

When we know our enemy, or at least admit that the war we are currently fighting is steeped in centuries-old fervent religious ideology, then and only then we will be able to fight and fully beat them. We must make no mistake that our initial successes in Afghanistan and even Iraq are purely military victories. Our enemy continues to conduct their operations in nearly every country in the world, including here in the United States. Consequently, we will not be able to be victorious by military strength alone. It will take honesty to identify our enemy and know our enemy as well as they know us, or we will be fighting this war for generations to come.

There are organizations (CAIR) who label those who ask tough questions about Islam or who are critical of Islam as "Islamophobes" and use the legal system to silence its critics instead of addressing those tough questions/critics directly.

Ok, unless you have been living completely isolated from the rest of the world, I do not see how you can make such statement.
The most discussed, criticized, written about, discussed again, criticized again thing in the last 4 years has been Islam. Numerous books written by Muslims and non-Muslims, countless TV apearances by high ranked clerics, islamic organisations, on various talk shows from CNN to FOX to independent media have discussed to infinity the topic of jihad, suicide bombers, jews and christians according to Islam, etc, etc.
It is just that people don't want to listen. No matter how many times we explain it, some just don't want to hear it. It does not fit into their pre-defined opinion and their pre-defined view on the whole situation, so it must be a lie.
All those Muslims who live their whole lives as Muslims, whos friends are muslims, who have read the Qur'an many times, who live the life of a muslim suddenly don't know their own life, but some dude from some bogus inteligence "network" knows it, he knows that by nature of our religion we should all be suicide bombers.

Simple logical question: if the essence of Islam is "kill all jews and chistians", and we muslims read the quran every single day, year by year, then how come we are not all killers?
Are you saying that more then 1 billion people have absolutely no clue and are ignorant of their own religion, ALTHOUGH they LIVE it every single day, and some no-name guy from "northeast inteligence network" actually knows the truth?
That is utter crap.

Look at muslims posting here, me, babyloi, that guy from saudi arabia (I forgot his nick), is any one of us remotely implying that we should all kill?
I've read quran many times, my whole family is deeply religious, my friends are too, my entire country is, yet we are not suicide bombers nor are we all on some religious conversion spree to turn the world to islamic republic. Are you saying we got it all wrong? That we are too stupid to understand what we are reading??

It is obvious that a minority of muslims are terrorists. Therefore it is a simple logical conclusion that THEY got it all wrong, and not the rest of 1,1 billion muslims.

I am sorry if this doesn't fit your view of things, but the facts speak for themselves.
There are one billion muslims in the world, most don't even live in the middle east. The biggest muslim country is Indonesia, then comes India I think.
Minority are Al qaeda members. This minority, they are the ones who got is all wrong, who do not understand what it means to be muslim, the same way KKK members are not representatives of christians, neither is the IRA, or Timothy McWeigh.

If you want to discuss islamic extremists then you should use that expression and stop saying "islam this" and "islam that", "muslims are or are not", implying that it concerns 1 billion people of all races living in over 100 different countries.
Define what you want to say more accurately.

If I want to discuss KKK I won't say "white people hate black people, whats up with that?". I will say "there is this small group of white people who consider themselves superior to colored people, can we discuss that?".

Knowing this, the governments of our Muslim allies, as well as the prominent leaders of "moderate Muslim" groups in the U.S. have been reluctant, if not altogether silent, on condemning the terrorists who are allegedly acting in violation of the principals of the religion of Islam.

A totaly false statement. After 9/11 there have been numerous statements from all around the world, muslim presidents, prime ministers, clerics, people, condemning the acts of terror.
The thing is, we do not carry collective guilt for 9/11, you can't stamp that one on us. We do not have to justify and appologize all the time for something we haven't done. That would be like all polish people should leave their work and march on the streets to condemn what McWeigh has done, after all he was white and polish people are white and christian so they carry the guilt for it too. Thats kinda stupid.

The rest of the article is just... well crap, to put it that way. Rice got it all wrong, muslims got it all wrong, but Douglas J. Hagmann he knows it. Yeah right. It is interesting how he presents himself as some kind of martyr of truth, all chained by political correctness and all that... look at him carrying his cross like Jesus... what a nonsense. He lives in America, you can say whatever you want there, there is this thing called freedom of speech, even KKK utilises it.

The concept of Jihad has been explained so many times that I really do not want to repeat it here, the difference between attacking and DEFENDING something. Read up on that.

Freedom/TrustNoOne,

You can use whatever books you like to try and externalise your justification for your religious and xenophobic bigotry. No matter how many quotes you post it will not hide the fact that you have a deep hatred for another group of people simply based on their religious beliefs.

As a staunch athiest I strongly believe that all those who use religion to denigrate, subjugate or eliminate others are not worthy of the real messages of their religion.

Belief in a God (by whatever name you call it) is not a bad thing in itself. What perverts it is how one lives ones life. Evil people are evil people no matter what religious path they choose.

George W. Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Ariel Sharon, Adolf Hitler etc are all examples of men who abuse their power under the guise of religious "right".

It is my fervent hope that I will live to see the day we no longer feel the need to believe in something other than ourselves. There is goodness in the heart of man. The great sin is that some use fear of God as an excuse to do evil.

Cheers

BHR

p.s. Paperclip, I have to commend you on your last post. Well done. I have voted you "Way Above".


[edit on 6-5-2005 by BillHicksRules]

Originally posted by BillHicksRules

You can use whatever books you like to try and externalise your justification for your religious and xenophobic bigotry. No matter how many quotes you post it will not hide the fact that you have a deep hatred for another group of people simply based on their religious beliefs.

The thing is, Bill, it is Muslims using the Qur'an to justify their violent behavior. And if you take the time to read the Qur'an you would know that their perception falls right in line with the texts. The fact is I don't hate anybody for their religious beliefs. It wasn't until 911 that I started studying the reasons and justification these "extremists" have for commiting their henious acts. But instead of the public outcry from "moderate" Muslims against those henious acts, it is political apologists proclaiming Islam a "religion of peace" and that these terrorists are hijacking a wonderful, loving, and tolerant religion. If your read the Qur'an you'd see it is anything but. Instead of looking in the mirror and raising the need for islamic reform, Muslims chooses to play the victim card and point their fingers at those who ask critical questions of Islam and label them "islamophobes".

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
As a staunch athiest I strongly believe that all those who use religion to denigrate, subjugate or eliminate others are not worthy of the real messages of their religion.

I agree. But this raises a question: Who determines the "real" message of their religion and how do they get it. There are Islamic schools all over, including in the US, that are funded by Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia, where young children are getting the strict fundamentalist teachings of Islam. The notion that these "extremists" are a tiny minority is flawed.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Belief in a God (by whatever name you call it) is not a bad thing in itself. What perverts it is how one lives ones life. Evil people are evil people no matter what religious path they choose.

I for one believe that people are taught to be "evil". There is plenty of this going on everywhere. But in the context of this thread which focusses on Islamic current events, I raise the concerns I have of the Islamic messages being spread, in our neighborhoods and all around the world, given Islam is the fastest growing religion. The fact that the majority of muslims may be peace-loving doesn't negate these concerns. It seems to me that "moderates" should be equally concerned about the rising tide of Islamic fundamentalism, but their relative silence on this issue is deafening.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
George W. Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Ariel Sharon, Adolf Hitler etc are all examples of men who abuse their power under the guise of religious "right".

It seems rather extreme to list george Bush and Ariel Sharon in the same sentence as the other two. While they may be extreme in their own way, Bush and Sharon are not on some crusade to "convert or kill" others in the name of religion. In addition, Ariel Sharon is about as far left as they go--he is not part of the "religious right".

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
It is my fervent hope that I will live to see the day we no longer feel the need to believe in something other than ourselves. There is goodness in the heart of man. The great sin is that some use fear of God as an excuse to do evil.

I couldn't agree with you more as this is a great statment!! BTW; you said you're Athiest. By this do you mean that you don't believe that there might be a God?

Paperclip: Do you regularily attend a mosque? Do you speak Arabic? Were you raised a Muslim or are you convert? If a convert, why?

Freedom,

Thanks for your reply.

As I can see you have your beliefs and they are not likely to be influenced by me in anyway so I will not attempt to reason with you.

As to my being an atheist, I believe there is no God and no need for one.

I can fully explain my world and the universe without recourse to centuries old mythology and political scam tactics.

If you feel the need to hate a whole portion of this planet then I feel sorry for you as you are simply helping those you claim to hate the most, the terrorists.

You are helping lump basically evil people who try to justify their acts to a wider audience in with those who wish nothing but peace and to be left alone to live their lives.

As someone who lives in a so-called Christian country (UK) what I see day to day are acts of violence and cruelty by those who if asked said they believed in the Bible.

But as I said you keep that hate burning inside you. I hope it keeps your warm.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
If you feel the need to hate a whole portion of this planet then I feel sorry for you as you are simply helping those you claim to hate the most, the terrorists.

You are attempting to infuse some kind of internal raging hatred that doesn't exist within me.

Sticking our collective heads in the sand regarding the underground recruitment and back-door Islamic education is precisely what the "extremists" or "terrorists" or whatever you want to call them, want. They are counting on this mass-denial to provide them the unfettered spreading of their beliefs.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
You are helping lump basically evil people who try to justify their acts to a wider audience in with those who wish nothing but peace and to be left alone to live their lives.

I have always acknowledged that there are peace-loving Muslims and harbor no ill-feelings toward them. It is Islam, in general, that I have a problem with; not because of its religious tenets, but because it encompasses its own laws and governing doctrine (sharia) which is practiced today. Because of Sharia law, Islam is more a socio-political system, much like Communism or Fascism, than simply a religion;

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
As someone who lives in a so-called Christian country (UK) what I see day to day are acts of violence and cruelty by those who if asked said they believed in the Bible.

Please provide examples of this violence with their proclamations that they commit them BECAUSE the bible instructs them to. If you're talking about violence in general (rape, murder, etc) then your comparing apples to oranges as I'm certain your laws in the UK prohibit this.

Sharia law, which is based on the Qur'an and Hadith, supports the "extreme and fundamentalist" form of Islam.

I shall quote a few verses from the Quran here.
A few explanations first. "We" in Qur'an refers to God, and in some cases God and angels. People of the Book/Scripture are Jews and Christians.

"(5:44) We have sent down the Torah, containing guidance and light. Ruling in accordance with it were the Jewish prophets, as well as the rabbis and the priests, as dictated to them in GOD's scripture, and as witnessed by them. Therefore, do not reverence human beings; you shall reverence Me instead. And do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the disbelievers.

(5:46) Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

(5:47) The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

(5:48) Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed."


This is a quote from Qur'an officialy stating that Jews and Christians believe in the same God as Muslims, and that Torah and Bible/Gospel are God's revelations.
It also states that Jews and Christians are to rule according to THEIR laws and Muslims according to Qur'an.
Now, please show me a christian or jewish denomination that officialy recognizes Muslims as equal believers and Qur'an as God's revelation and we shall continue the talk about tolerance in religion.

Oh, two more quote from the, as you claim, evil and intolerant book:

"(2:62) Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

(5:32) anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people."


I could quote you here half of the book, verses that even give chance to atheists to go to heaven if they have led a righteous life. The most used attribute of God in Qur'an is "Most Merciful, Forgiving".

For the billionth time, the problem is not the Qur'an itself, but the evil in people. That evil can twist anything into a tool of killing. The peaceful message of Jesus has killed more people then anything else on this planet, whole nations erradicated. Yet, if you read the Bible, there is no justification for that. For centuries priests, popes, common folk, have justified the killings, torture, burning people alive, beheadings, with the message of Jesus which strongly condemns that!

It is the evil, coded deep in our genes, and IGNORANCE of men that causes the misery, not the word of God.

I am not a convert, I was born and raised Muslim. I do not speak arabic and I do not go to the mosque. The Qur'an states that the place of prayer is irrelevant, God hears us wherever we are.

Posted by BillHicksRules
p.s. Paperclip, I have to commend you on your last post. Well done. I have voted you "Way Above".

Thanks

Paperclip,

It is people like yourself that give me hope for the future.

Al-Qaeda is a misrepresention of the Islamic faith in the same way the Klu Klux Klan or the IRA are misrepresentations of the Christian faith.

I have always been of the mind that terrorists should be treated as and reported as criminals pure and simple. By the mainstream medias continual use of the words Islamic in front of the word terrorists they do the job of the terrorist for them and at the same time slowly but surely drive a wedge between people that should be working together.

Lets stop it here on ATS. Lets simply refer to Al Qaeda as a criminal organisation. I mean no one refers to the Mafia as a Catholic Terrorist Organisation.

Cheers

BHR

PaperClip:

The references you provided are translations of Dr. Rashad Khalifa, a self-proclaimed messanger of the covenant, who sytematically altered various meanings of the Qur'an to bolster his theory that the texts could be mathematically proven "perfect" by using the number 19 as a common denominator. As a result of his watered-down translation of the Qur'an, a group of scholars in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa against Khalifa calling for his death. This was at the same time they issued a fatwa against Salmon Rushdie but Khalifa's death sentance recieved little attention. Dr. Khalifa was murdered in 1990.

I do wish that Muslims subscribed to Khalifa's teaching since I believe there would be less Islamic violence as a result. But mainstream Islam rejects the teachings of Khalifa and in fact followers of Khalifa are a minority.

The passages you referenced are rarely taught in Islam because when the Qur'an is taken in full context, there is clearly an intolerant tone for non-believers, Christains, and Jews.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Paperclip,

It is people like yourself that give me hope for the future.

People who stick their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem? Where is the PUBLIC OUTCRY by "moderates" that their religion is being hijacked? Instead what you have are Muslims rioting and murdering over a Newsweek article about a Quranic desecration. IDIOCY!!!

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Al-Qaeda is a misrepresention of the Islamic faith in the same way the Klu Klux Klan or the IRA are misrepresentations of the Christian faith.

There you go; diluding yourself that Al Qaeda is the sole, small minority of Muslims creating the problems. When Islamists carry out their attacks they are able to justify their actions by the Qur'an. The Ku Klux Klan cannot justify their actions by the bible.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
I have always been of the mind that terrorists should be treated as and reported as criminals pure and simple. By the mainstream medias continual use of the words Islamic in front of the word terrorists they do the job of the terrorist for them and at the same time slowly but surely drive a wedge between people that should be working together.

What do you mean "working together"? I believe integrating into a society would be a form of working together. But look at the netherlands and the problems they have with immigrant Muslims. Europe as well. Islam is a political-social system like communism or facism. Muslims born and raised under strict Islamic guidelines/regimes don't have the ability to understand what human free-will is and are therefore unable to accept true freedom of the countiries that host their immigration

Here's another fine example of a peace-loving and tolerant Muslim:

www.eveningtimes.co.uk...

AN asylum-seeker left his friend scarred for life after he claimed he had insulted a historical Islamic figure. Akbar Sagharloo slashed Mohammed Karami after bursting into his victim's home in Maryhill, Glasgow.

At Glasgow Sheriff Court, the 35-year-old Iranian, of Fountainwell Terrace, Sighthill, Glasgow admitted the attack and was remanded in custody.
He will be sentenced next month.

People like this are like cockroaches. When you see one, there's a whole nest of them somewhere else.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
PaperClip:

The references you provided are translations of Dr. Rashad Khalifa, a self-proclaimed messanger of the covenant, who sytematically altered various meanings of the Qur'an to bolster his theory that the texts could be mathematically proven "perfect" by using the number 19 as a common denominator. As a result of his watered-down translation of the Qur'an, a group of scholars in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa against Khalifa calling for his death. This was at the same time they issued a fatwa against Salmon Rushdie but Khalifa's death sentance recieved little attention. Dr. Khalifa was murdered in 1990.

I am VERY well aware who Khalifa is.
I chose his translation because it is in MODERN english, other translations are more then 100 years old and some contain islamic "terminology" with which are western people not familiar, examples: Jesus is called Isa in Qur'an, Bible is called Injeel, Torah is called Taurat etc etc. It makes no sense to post such translation if you are not very well versed in islamic teachings.

Khalifa's translation is NOT watered-down, that is stupid term anyway. There are modern translations of Bible too, they are not "watered down", they simply use the words we use TODAY, modern english/german/french/ whatever.

But if you desire an OLD translation of Qur'an, I quote you uhmm lets say Shakir translation and I'll put some Pickthal too, of the same verses I posted above. You can see that the meaning is exactly the same:

(5:46):
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)

(5:47)
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors

PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

*snip, snip*

(5:48)
SHAKIR:for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

PICKTHAL:For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

As you can see, the meaning of these verses is the same, only Khalifa's translation is much easier to read and understand.

I think I know much better then you which passages are taught in Islam exactly, since I am muslim.
Saying that some passages are more important then the others is a blasphemy in Islam anyway, at least you should know that if you had studied Islam.
We do not pick which part of Qur'an we learn and which not, everything is God's word, so you are required to read everything, including the passages I showed you.

Now, a little lesson in human nature: according to science, genetics, psychology, psychiatry, neurobiology, medicine, common human sense, statistics, there MUST be bad apples in society. There is no perfect society on earth and there never will be.
Therefore, proving your point on general view of Islam by linking to INDIVIDUAL examples of these bad apples and drawing a conclusion on the WHOLE society based on those bad apples is ILLOGICAL.

Many here have demonstrated that extremism is not supported by the Qur'an, you could say the moderates have proven that Islam has been hijacked by the extremists, a public outcry on a public messageboard. We have denounced terrorism as an act of evil, we have showed that it has no foundation in the Qur'an, we have demonstrated that majority of muslims are indeed moderates and are not on a 24/7 killing spree ( you would be dead by now if we all were).

So I guess it is YOU who refuses to see, hear and notice these things.
You talk about extremism and lack of protest by moderate muslims, yet when you are faced with a 4 page thread about it, with muslims participating in it saying that terrorism is NOT their way, you ignore it.
Why? It doesn't fit in your little theory?

We have done exactly the thing you say we never do. And we are not the only ones. It is not our fault that you refuse to listen.
In the end it is completely irrelevant if YOU personaly believe us or not, it has no relevance to the way we lead our lives, it only affects yours. Think about it.



(2:62)
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve



[edit on 20-5-2005 by paperclip]

Interesting poll done...

A survey conducted by Cornell University recently showed that 64% of Republicans believe that Muslims should have their civil liberties restricted. 59% say that federal agents should infiltrate Islamic organizations. 37% support forcing Muslims to register with the government. 41% support racial profiling. Conservative, Christian Republicans support the restriction of civil rights for Muslims 5:1 over less religious Democrats.

Here at... pbaq.smartcampaigns.com...


Ok.... Link not working, fixing, well, trying.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by James the Lesser]

So what are they teaching young children in a mosque near you?

Here is an excerpt:

He then began to explain the surah, and its importance. He told the children that this surah described the essence of Islam – that there is only one Allah, and that Allah has no children. Then, quite abruptly, he told the room full of children that this surah was what Muslims were dying for in Palestine, and Iraq, and Chechnya. He told them that the Christians were all doomed to eternal hell for the sin of “shirk”, or assigning partners or a son to God.

He ranted for around 10 minutes about the “kafirs” and how the ambition of these unbelievers used the name of Christ to work with the Zionists to kill all of the Muslims in the world.

Then, suddenly he shifted gears. He started discussing Jews and Zionists, explaining that they were the most hated creatures by Allah. He told the children that Allah in fact hated them so much that at one point he turned all the Jews into pigs and monkeys.

If you think that this particular mosque is an exception, rather than the rule, you are diluding yourself. Just open your eyes and look to see what is happening in the fastest growing religion in the world. BTW; the reason it's the fastest growing religion is because people in these nation have two choices: accept Islam or die. Yea right--religion of peace!!!

Here is another fine example of Islamic duplicity whereby leaders/Imams publicly condemn Islamic terrorism and extremism but privately endorse their actions.

From Northeast Intelligence

Lodi Arrests: Template For Terrorist Cells Across America

9 June 2005: Lodi-- From the terrorist training camps in Pakistan to the mosques in America, we are engaged in war of deception. That "war of deception" is being waged on us as the recent arrests in Lodi illustrate. As heard on AM-540 WFLA, the The Pat Campbell Show this morning, agency director Doug Hagmann noted that the very same Islamic Imams who vociferously "condemned" the 9/11 attacks are embroiled in the alleged training of Islamic terrorist operatives planning to use their skills to kill us here in America. This is a perfect example of the contemptuous intolerance of Islam again all other faiths, and the deceit permitted by the Islamic Qu'ran and Hadith when justified in "fighting the enemy."

Muhammed Adil Khan, pictured at left, led efforts to build the Farooqia Islamic Center, including an Islamic a school for young children. He also joined the leaders of local Christian churches and a synagogue to issue a "Declaration of Peace" condemning terrorism and stressing the common origins of each religion. Yet, that same Imam is alleged to be among up to a dozen others in the same group or "cell" involved in providing material support to potential terrorist operatives inside the U.S.

We are being provided with ample warning signs about the intentions of Islamic militants in the U.S. who live and work among us. According to law enforcement sources close to the Lodi investigation, there will be additional detentions and possible arrests. But the story does not stop there. The Lodi case is a virtual template of Islamic groups across the country, feigning religious tolerance while actively engaged in Al-Takeyya, which permits Muslims to engage in lies and deceit to further their cause of Jihad. (The basis for this practice can be found in the Quranic verse Surah 3:28). The question is will we recognize this practice and become proactive before it is too late?

Don't be fooled - what is happening in Lodi is also happening in small town and large cities across the U.S.

What is this Northeast "Inteligence" Network really?
Are they a credible goverment inteligence agency with trained proffesionals or are they a bunch of wannabe agents playing inteligence on internet?

You can SAY and CLAIM a lot of things on a website, the reality might be quite different.

Any legitimate sources to confirm NIN stories?