Wake up!! Islam is coming in your back door.

Exactly people stereotype the muslins to much, the only people I have seen wearing turbans around my area are actually Hindus.

Muslin Americans most of the time doesn't go around wearing anything but regular American style clothes.

And by the way the derogative comment was out of line.

After all Muslin American's ARE regular Americans of any ethnic back ground.

Originally posted by Trustnone
Paperclip, whats your problem with christianity? If you'd like to become a muslim than go right ahead, wrap a turbin around your face and shoot guns in the air, rape women and children and become utter scum. islam is about one thing and it's not peace.

Hey Trustnone, whats your PROBLEM?

Are you a student in the Theology University studying the History of Islamic World?

What do you know about Islam? Every Muslim is a turban wearing - gun shooting - women raping - utter scum, that does not want Peace?

Wow man, can you have a more Ignorant in your posts?

Or are you just another Brainwashed Subject of the Pro-War Corporate Bush Goverment Propaganda Machine?

Originally posted by paperclipWanna know why I am laughing so much?
Because I am muslim, an educated muslim woman who doesn't wear a headscarf, btw.
I just pwned your stereotype.

Why do you think I have a problem with christianity?

Kudos to you paperclip - truly!! Please know that not all christians are xenophobic racists, just as not all followers of Mohammed are terrorists....

Originally posted by paperclip

Originally posted by Trustnone
Paperclip, whats your problem with christianity? If you'd like to become a muslim than go right ahead, wrap a turbin around your face and shoot guns in the air, rape women and children and become utter scum. islam is about one thing and it's not peace.

Wanna know why I am laughing so much?
Because I am muslim, an educated muslim woman who doesn't wear a headscarf, btw.
I just pwned your stereotype.

Why do you think I have a problem with christianity?

[edit on 29-4-2005 by paperclip]

Well then Paperclip--I'll pose the same question to you as I did earlier: What's your opinion on Sura 4:34? Do you believe that women are the weaker sex and deserving of beatings as punishment by their men?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum...Do you believe that women are the weaker sex and deserving of beatings as punishment by their men?

And do you believe that women shouldn't be ordained as priests Freedom_for_sum??

marg6043

RU Going to answer the question I asked you earlier (RE Sura 4:34)?

I have to laugh about your post there and references, I don't think that American women will take that particular references very much at hart.

Remember this is American.

Now what do you think about the evangelicans fundamentalist that wants to run the nation under the bible thump in their own interpretation I mean.

They will make radical Islam a walk in the park.

ah screw it, no one listens anyhow

[edit on 033030p://555 by LA_Maximus]

Originally posted by marg6043
I have to laugh about your post there and references, I don't think that American women will take that particular references very much at hart.

So then what you're saying is that you can pick and choose those parts of the Qur'an you wish to follow? That's not very Islamic.

Originally posted by AlfredENewman

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum...Do you believe that women are the weaker sex and deserving of beatings as punishment by their men?

And do you believe that women shouldn't be ordained as priests Freedom_for_sum??

And just to add following a (very quick) Google search from here:

""As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1

"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) "

Yeah, right, the Bible sure is full of love and respect isn't it??

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
What's your opinion on Sura 4:34? Do you believe that women are the weaker sex and deserving of beatings as punishment by their men?

Ok, lets see...

Let me quote the sentence in question:

"[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme."

What is essential in analysis of Holy Books is historical context of when they were revealed.
At the time Qur'an was revealed to Mohammad, most tribesmen were beating their wives for every little thing. Human kind was quite primitive in the past.
So, this verse was revealed to calm them down, explore other alternatives before applying force. When you read the whole book and not just a sentence or two, and when you put them in context, then you see what they really mean. Later verses state that both sexes have equal rights. It was a gradual way to lower the influence of testosterone in men, I guess.

In Quran there are two distinct kinds of revelations, the revelations "for the moment", they refer to certain events happening there and then, often a question Mohammad was asked or a situation they were in, so Mohammad would come the next day and say what Allah had to say to that.
Then there is the other kind of revelations, the eternal ones, that apply generaly to all people for all times.

The one we are talking about here is in the first group, it is part of a chapter regulating laws regarding family, marriage (who you are allowed to marry, no incest allowed, then inheritance questions and so on) for the people back then.

There are a lot of verses, general ones, that give the same rights to women as they do to men. Women are in no way a "property" of men.

Most Muslims of today do not beat their wives. In my country, if you hit a woman, you go to jail. Domestic abuse is a big "NO".
For the most part, we do not take the Qur'an literaly, just like modern Jews and Christians do not have slaves or beat their wives (there are some pretty sick stuff in the Bible too, but that, just like the Qur'an, refers to people who lived THEN and it is not some kind of eternal law).

So, my question now to you is following: what does this have to do with the actual topic, which in my understanding is "can Islam be dominant in USA or not?".

What you asked me has more to do with theological discusion of difference between past and modern understanding of Islam.

Can you elaborate on why you think Islam has a chance of becoming the dominant religion in America?

Originally posted by AlfredENewman
Yeah, right, the Bible sure is full of love and respect isn't it??

I never said it was. You're making assumptions about my religious afilliations without knowing anything about me.

In currents events around the world, Islamic terrorism is up 300% since 2003. You don't hear of Christians decapitating and blowing up innocent people in the name of God. It was because of the actions of these Muslims that I became compelled to read the Qur'an. I was surprised to find their actions were by and large supported by what the Qur'an and Hadith both say.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sumYou don't hear of Christians decapitating and blowing up innocent people in the name of God.

That's true, Christians just blow people up in the name of freedom and democracy.

If you look at the history of Christianity though you'll see there were quite a lot of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

www.loc.gov...

Originally posted by paperclip

So, my question now to you is following: what does this have to do with the actual topic, which in my understanding is "can Islam be dominant in USA or not?".

I never said Islam will be dominant. I am pointing out that there are organizations who are fervently working towards that end.

What you asked me has more to do with theological discusion of difference between past and modern understanding of Islam.

I disagree that this is a past vs. present form of Islam. Islam is intertwined with its own set of laws called the Sharia. Those laws are based on the Qur'an and Hadith. As far as a woman's place in Islam, for example, her testimony is not given the same value as a man's in an Islamic court.

Can you elaborate on why you think Islam has a chance of becoming the dominant religion in America?

I dont believe it does simply because for Islam to exist in its pure form, Sharia must accompany it. Islamic law is completely inconsistent with our constitutional law. The problem, however, is that organizations, such as CAIR, are using our civil laws to squash some protections provided under the Consitution. The result of this is a clash of cultures.

Instead of assimilating into their host nation's culture, immigrated Muslims instead foist their own culture on every one else.

I find it ironic that while Islam may be the fastest growing religion right now (there is some debate whether some of these conversions are willful or forceful) much of the conversions are taking place in prison.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sumYou don't hear of Christians decapitating and blowing up innocent people in the name of God.

That's true, Christians just blow people up in the name of freedom and democracy.

I'm not Christian; but as an American I would blow people up (under military direction) for freedom and democracy including fighting for other's freedoms. You're free today because of it--ENJOY!! We did it in Kosovo for Kosovars--WHO ARE MUSLIM!!.

If we didn't fight for freedom Ace--we'd all likely be speaking German today. Who are you going to rely on? France?? HAHAHAHAHA

Originally posted by AceOfBase
If you look at the history of Christianity though you'll see there were quite a lot of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

All you Islamic apologists say the same thing (history...blah blah blah). I'm talking about what it happening NOW!! Open your eyes.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum


I never said Islam will be dominant. I am pointing out that there are organizations who are fervently working towards that end.

So what? That doesn't mean they will be successful. Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses are doing the same.

I dont believe it does simply because for Islam to exist in its pure form, Sharia must accompany it.

Not true. Sharia is a set of laws based on human interpretation of Qur'an. It doesn't even exist in my country and most muslims living in the west don't care much about it either.
Pure Islam actually doesn't exist and won't exist until Jesus comes back and brings back order to Earth.

Instead of assimilating into their host nation's culture, immigrated Muslims instead foist their own culture on every one else.

At what point in your life has a muslim forced YOU to do something you don't want to, without consequences?

The culture of one country is something that changes all the time. At one point it was american "culture" to have slaves, today it is not anymore, for example.
If muslims refuse to eat pork, if they do not drink alcohol, if they choose to wear modest clothes and choose not to watch porn, they are defining their own identity in the culture of land they live in, while at the same time those who choose to do all these things simply define their identity.
The essence of american culture is evolving mixed society, americans ARE immigrants, each contributing to general culture of the land with their own. Naturaly, as more immigrants arrive, the customs change slightly and keep at the same time certain main rules.

Muslims generaly do adapt to the culture they live in, in terms of respecting laws of the country.
Before you say anything, let me remind you that the genetic code of muslims is the same as the one of christians, therefore statistically a certain part of them will be criminals, drug dealers, killers and all that.

The term "addapting to culture" to me personaly has a slightly negative connotation. It implies a set of defined rules of society into which all are forced, regardless of the conflict that causes with their religious beliefs. That contradicts the deffinition of "freedom".
At the same time it is too vague. Which culture exactly? The one of trailor park trash? Manhattan rich guy? Hollywood producer? Porn star?
They all live differently, different social rules, different life style, different friends, etc, etc.

Adapting to the culture of free society would be more apropriate term here, meaning that we are allowed to define our identity freely in the culture we live in, respecting the laws of the country, while at the same time allowing others to do it too.
This form of adaptation is absolutely compatible with Islam (there is nothing in Qur'an that forbids it and a lot of it that encourages it).
It allows muslims to keep their identity AND to function within the laws of the country.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I never said Islam will be dominant. I am pointing out that there are organizations who are fervently working towards that end.

Originally posted by paperclip
So what? That doesn't mean they will be successful. Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses are doing the same.

I don't hear of Mormons/Jehovas/Christians suing critics of their religions. In fact, there have been several critics (ie Van Gogh) of Islam killed by Muslims.

Originally posted by paperclip
At what point in your life has a muslim forced YOU to do something you don't want to, without consequences?

When a Muslim woman refuses to remove her hijab to have her picture taken for her driver's license; is denied a license; and subsequently sues on religious grounds; Islam is forced on me because the legal system under which I live is being abused.

When a major corporation is sued, by Muslims, so that they can have a private room, while at work, in which they can pray 5 times a day; Islam is forced on me because of the additional costs associated that will be transfered to me as a consumer.

When these scumbags intentionally mess with airline security (did you read the articles I posted?) Islam is inconveniencing me as a flyer.

The problem is that Muslims don't keep their religion in their mosques or homes. They intentionally foist it on others around them. Now they want to spread it in public schools.



[edit on 29-4-2005 by Freedom_for_sum]

your calling me a "xenophobic racist" LOL, well you have probably never left your home country, you sit back and listen to 'liberal communist' propaganda and swallow it whole. I on the other hand have traveled around quite a bit and i am not impressed with muslims. They are the one group who i would label 'xenophobic racists'. You can label me a racist if you want but i laugh because this would be like me calling you 'a pinko-commie-fag'. Do you have no sympathy for those who live under the tyranical rule of islam? the only reason you can sit safely at home, typing on your computer and slander americans is because the very people you disrespect and spread foul lies about PROTECT YOU!. you probably spit on veterans too dont you? What's wrong with christianity? we dont mandate that jews and non-christians must be put to the sword.

The problem is that Muslims don't keep their religion in their mosques or homes. They intentionally foist it on others around them. Now they want to spread it in public schools.

You mean like fundamentalist Christians?

Souljah, whats your PROBLEM? what do you know of islam? are you a muslim? It may sound stereotypical but this is the behavior i see from muslims. I see few making any attempt to end this war.