The Miracle of Medjugorje

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Here ya' go Croat ... some letters from PJPII on medjugorje ...

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
You attacked the use of verbs versus nouns.

Oh freak'n brother. I attacked nothing. Go back and
re-read everything YOU posted and my response to what
YOU said. I was explaining that there are people who
contemplate (verb) and that in the Catholic faith there are
contemplatives (noun). Geeeeeeze ... *rolling eyes*
This is basically a catholic subject and non-catholics
need to understand terminology used. Get a grip.

"One does not need sit in a closet 24/7 to be a contemplative.

No, one doesn't need to be away from the world to contemplate.
However, to be a contemplative in the church ... a person does
go to a hermitage or a cloister, just as people did in the bible
(elijah, samuel, etc.) and just as the early christians did on
Mount Carmel. Your derogatory and insulting use of 'sit in a closet'
is ignorant. Contemplatives don't just 'sit in a closet'. They pray
for YOU and everyone else on the planet and they love God. They
have their jobs within the cloisters and they have personalities
and difficulties to deal with just like every one else.

You have made up your mind. So be it. Now how about
you leave Croat in peace to discuss medjugorje with those who
are interested in it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
This is basically a catholic subject and non-catholics
need to understand terminology used. Get a grip.

Of course this also applies to Catholics as well. One should always understand the terminology before one uses it.

Edit:

Can those not in a cloister can lead a contemplative life with the gift of Contemplation?

You may choose to believe the use of the word closet is ignorant. But, have you ever considered why a cloister is called a cloister?

Compare the following translations:

Mat 6:6 (KJV)
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Mat 6:6 (NAB)
But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

A cloister or a closet is a physical representation of "your inner room". Neither of which are needed to enter "your inner room". Contemplation is extremely deep prayer. "Your inner room" is required, a closet or a cloister is not.


How could I have any opinion but the one I brought into the discussion when you have not addressed the substance of my question? You have not offered an explanation as to how "complete surrender" to Mary is compatable with the His laws. In the lack of an opposing explanation, one should surely default to a previously established position.


[edit on 20-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Can those not in a cloister can lead a contemplative life with the gift of Contemplation?

I apologize for becoming exasperated with you. Patience is NOT one
of my finer qualities. I will try again one last time. I'll try to be more
patient.

Those NOT in a cloister may have the gift of contemplation and be
contemplative at times. However a 'contemplative' is one who is
separate from the world both physically and spiritually. This is the
term that I was trying to discuss. All throughout the judeo-christian
history, God has called some to Him in this manner. He has called
them out of the world unto Himself in a unique way. They are
Contemplatives (noun). St. John the Baptizer is a very good example
of a Contemplative. He spent most of his life in the desert in prayer,
fasting, and living simply so as to be closer to God and to prepare him
for the active part of his life which would be very short, just before
Christ entered His ministry. Many Christians are given the gift of
contemplation at times during their life. It is a gift freely given by
God and not earned in any way by us. However, they are not
'Contemplatives'. They are Christians blessed with the gift of
contemplation at times. But they are not Contemplatives.

Do you understand the difference between meditation and
contemplation? Meditation is what WE do. Contemplation is
the gift that comes from God and is not earned by us in any way.
Contemplation may last a few minutes or a few days. Meditation
lasts as long as we make the effort to do so because it is all 'us'.

You have not offered an explanation as to how "complete surrender" to Mary is compatable with the His laws.

I tried. I gave an example. It obviously wasn't a good enough
example for you and that is most likely a reflection of me not being
able to articulate truth. Truth is ... if someone is away from God and
someone of God says - put your hand in mine and trust me I will
take you to God and stand with you to ease your fears - that's a
good thing. I don't know how else to put it. I'll have to think
about it and see if I can find some author that will be able to put
it in other terms that perhaps will explain things from a different
angle so you will see it.


[edit on 5/21/2005 by FlyersFan]

On contemplatives:

I will give you that the standard Church use of the word limits the full definition of the word. Though I would argue that any person given the gift of contemplation is a comtemplative. I would also argue that not all people living in a cloister have been given the gift.

Yes, I understand the difference between contemplation and meditation. If I did not, I would not be explaining that location is not a prerequisite.

On your apology:

I was not offended. Your apology is accepted in the same manner it was given, with love. Patience is a virtue that comes with love. Do not try to be patient; learn to love as God loves, and you will be patient.

I tried. I gave an example. It obviously wasn't a good enough
example for you and that is most likely a reflection of me not being
able to articulate truth. Truth is ... if someone is away from God and
someone of God says - put your hand in mine and trust me I will
take you to God and stand with you to ease your fears - that's a
good thing. I don't know how else to put it. I'll have to think
about it and see if I can find some author that will be able to put
it in other terms that perhaps will explain things from a different
angle so you will see it.

The truth is difficult to place into words. But perhaps your failing is not yours at all but rather mine.

Truth is ... if someone is away from God and
someone of God says - put your hand in mine and trust me I will
take you to God and stand with you to ease your fears - that's a
good thing.

I agree with this statement.

Do you agree... if someone is away from God and another who is not of God says, "Put your hand in mine, trust me, and I will take you to God and stand with you to ease your fears", this would not be a 'good thing'?


Every mother knows there is a time to let their children be adults and walk their own path. If the lessons taught while growing up were enough, they will walk the right path.

There comes a time when the lost should be capable of placing his hand directly into God's hand and let Him do the leading. If another requires "taking you to God" unto your death, I believe they are lacking confidence in either their ability to teach or the students ability to learn.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
There comes a time when the lost should be capable of placing his hand directly into God's hand and let Him do the leading.

Yes, but there are times when the Good Shephard has to leave the
99 and go find the lost one. Christ said it Himself. There are some that
are not capable of placing their own hands into God's. We believe that
He can send His mother to do this as well as the angels and saints.
When we come to Him as 'little children' - like He said we should -
we still need mom, from time to time, to help us out.

Raphael, we are just not going to agree that God can send Mary to
gather the lost sheep back into His fold. I guess that's all there is
to it.

God bless you. Have a nice and holy Sunday.

Raphael, we are just not going to agree that God can send Mary to
gather the lost sheep back into His fold

But we should be able to agree easily by showing it in Gods Word.

Luk 15:4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?
Luk 15:5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.'

The problem with your logic is that the shepard is sending his mother to get the lost sheep. Jesus said that the shepard does it.

So then, if you are the sheep, and it is not the shepard that is coming, but someone else who says 'follow me'....then you should not trust it

FF,

If the RCC doctrine and dogma holds any truth, within it you will find that unconditional love of others comes through unconditional love of God. I challenge you to show me where in Roman Catholic Dogma or Doctrine (and not the teachings of a saint), that it is acceptable to "completely surrender" to any but God. If you can show me this, I will agree to disagree.

I am not saying God could not send Mary. I am saying I do not believe this spirit is Mary.

I believe the problem here, is that you refuse to seperate Mary from this spirit long enough to look at what it is saying.

Would you believe me if I were to tell you that this spirit is not primarily interested in those who have lost their faith? That it did not keep its word?

March 1, 1984 "Dear children! I have chosen this parish in a special way and I wish to lead it. I am guarding it in love and I want everyone to be mine. Thank you for having responded tonight. I wish you always to be with me and my Son in ever greater numbers. I shall speak a message to you every Thursday."

"I shall speak a message to you every Thursday." Note that there exists here no stipulations.(While it's not the point of quoting this message, it should be noted the desire of this spirit that everyone be theirs and not God's)

March 8, 1984 "Thank you for having responded to my call! Dear children, you in the parish, be converted. This is my other wish. That way all those who shall come here shall be able to convert."

Convert? Non-believers to believers? Right?

April 30, 1984 (Monday) Marija asked Our Lady, "Dear Madonna, why didn't you give me a message for the parish on Thursday?" Our Lady replied,

"I do not wish to force anyone to do that which he/she neither feels nor desires, even though I had special messages for the parish by which I wanted to awaken the faith of every believer. But only a really small number has accepted my Thursday messages. In the beginning there were quite a few. But its become a routine affair for them. And now recently some are asking for the message out of curiosity, and not out of faith and devotion to my Son and me."

She failed to keep her word to deliver a message every Thursday.

There are plenty of non-believers described here waiting to be converted to believers. But, she wishes to deliver messages to those with faith, those without faith weren't as important as those with faith.


On a side note: "the cold shoulder" is a classic technique employed by those who wish to manipulate others in matters of the heart. Think about how this spirit used this technique by not showing up.



[edit on 22-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

This months message

Message of May 25, 2005 "Dear children! Anew I call you to live my messages in humility. Especially witness them now when we are approaching the anniversary of my apparitions. Little children, be a sign to those who are far from God and His love. I am with you and bless you all with my motherly blessing. Thank you for having responded to my call."

Obviously their are some who do not think that the apparitions of Mary are of God. I am one of them. So I guess what I ask of those who do believe this is to be very discerning regarding this matter. Read and study the Bible thoroughly.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Obviously their are some who do not think that the apparitions of Mary are of God. I am one of them. So I guess what I ask of those who do believe this is to be very discerning regarding this matter. Read and study the Bible thoroughly.

We dont believe apparitions of Mary are God:bnghd: We believe God sent us the virgin Mary in order to convert us back to him:bnghd: If this is real that is which I believe it is:bnghd:

Originally posted by Croat56
We dont believe apparitions of Mary are God:bnghd: We believe God sent us the virgin Mary in order to convert us back to him:bnghd: If this is real that is which I believe it is:bnghd:

He said "of God".

But, I still wonder about that "convert" thing.


[edit on 29-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
He said "of God".

But, I still wonder about that "convert" thing.


[edit on 29-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Oh woops

Whats wrong with converting us back to God's love and reminding us he's here?

Originally posted by Croat56
Oh woops

Whats wrong with converting us back to God's love and reminding us he's here?

Nothing.

But I pointed out that when she missed her visit, she wished to deliver messages to the faithful who were not present, and not those needing converting who were present.

Originally posted by Croat56

We dont believe apparitions of Mary are God:bnghd: We believe God sent us the virgin Mary in order to convert us back to him:bnghd: If this is real that is which I believe it is:bnghd:

When I said of God I mean from God.

Jesus came to convert us back to God, that is why He was sent, there isn't a need for Mary to come.

Originally posted by dbrandt
When I said of God I mean from God.

Jesus came to convert us back to God, that is why He was sent, there isn't a need for Mary to come.

Yes because every1 in the world is christian right? Every1 fallows Jesus' teachings dont they? Every1 is always faithful and never strays from their religion right? There is no evil in the world now to turn us away from God is there in todays world? God sent the virgin Mary to croatians because we needed her the most during that #hole yugoslavia. Tito just died and then milosovic became dictater. Religion was almost completely outlawed in the communist state. Weather you were muslim or catholic it didnt matter. Once the visions started it was condemned by the government. They sent spies into the masses. The priests were accused of plotting against the communistic state. 601 croatian priests were executed. Any1 who sang croatian folk songs were sent to jail because they were a "threat" to the government. The army evan came in closed off the church so ppl could not attend mass. The croud was to large for them to handle. Lead by father jozo the crowd overcame the army and removed the wood that was board into the doors of the church and attended mass all while singing Ave Maria as loud as they could. 10 years after Mary came, after the berlin wall and communism fell and we and slovenia decided to break off, The Yugoslavian government with Milosovic, Arkan, the cetniks then started their genocide campaigne. Without us they were nothing. They wanted to get rid of every1 there and start their "greater serbia" Hole cities were destroyed, people lay dead in the streats. Medugorje was never touched. God sent Mary as a warning for these events that would come. Sadly not enough ppl listened. We needed her during that time. The entire world will still needs her as long as there is evil running ramped in our world. Medugorje is now a shrine. There is a strong spiritual feel there. Miracles happen there. LASTING miracles. Most ppl there are so overwelmed with faith and spiritualness. Most ppl who go there that are not catholic actually convert. The priests there are overwelmed with ppl who go there and then go to confession. Its been nicknamed the confession capital of the world. 3 of the visionaries still see her. Ivan Dragicevic sees her every single day. Every month they get a message of peace from Mary. So dont you dare start telling me this is the devil. The devil has no place in Medugorje.

Originally posted by Croat56
So dont you dare start telling me this is the devil. The devil has no place in Medugorje.

You can certainly keep believing in these visions. I believe they are of satanic origin. As we both know each others view on this, my point is keep this information(that some people believe that they are satanic) in your mind in case it's needed later.

How someone can think Mary is satanic is beyond me. I sure am glad im catholic and not those false christians

Originally posted by Croat56
How someone can think Mary is satanic is beyond me. I sure am glad im catholic and not those false christians

It is not Mary which I question. It is this spirit who claims the name of Mary.

Beware of pride, and embrace humility through God's love.

Lasting healings are a sign this is actually Mary. If it was the devil the healings would not have lasted.