The Miracle of Medjugorje

Originally posted by FlyersFan
www.spiritdaily.com...

Croat (and anyone else truly interested in Medjugorje)

Here is an article about Medjugorje that came out today.
Seems Ratzinger (Benedict 16) may have gone there.
ALso, some quotes by PJPII about the place.

That was nice FlyersFan. I enjoyed that article. I knew it couldnt have been the devil doing this.

So like I asked b4 what do you think of that supernatural indestructable thingy?

Well I guess we wont be able to fully understand what that supernatural thing is until it gets here anyway.

I posted one of the visions that troubled me (on page 4), but no one commented on it.

Could one of the Catholics (Roman or Orthodox) on the board please explain to me how a call for complete surrender to any but God is wholesome?

June 13, 1985 "Dear children! Until the anniversary day I am calling you, the parish, to pray more and to let your prayer be a sign of surrender to God. Dear children, I know that your are all tired, but you don't know how to surrender yourselves to me. During these days surrender yourselves completely to me! Thank your for having responded to my call."


[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
I posted one of the visions that troubled me (on page 4), but no one commented on it.
[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

I am not catholic but all the visions trouble me. A christian is not to surrender or worship anyone other than Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
I posted one of the visions that troubled me (on page 4), but no one commented on it.

Could one of the Catholics (Roman or Orthodox) on the board please explain to me how a call for complete surrender to any but God is wholesome?

June 13, 1985 "Dear children! Until the anniversary day I am calling you, the parish, to pray more and to let your prayer be a sign of surrender to God. Dear children, I know that your are all tired, but you don't know how to surrender yourselves to me. During these days surrender yourselves completely to me! Thank your for having responded to my call."


[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

I missed that one.
Im sure you know how I feel about it tho.
So i will just watch

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
June 13, 1985 "Dear children! Until the anniversary day I am calling you, the parish, to pray more and to let your prayer be a sign of surrender to God. Dear children, I know that your are all tired, but you don't know how to surrender yourselves to me. During these days surrender yourselves completely to me! Thank your for having responded to my call."
[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

When she sais surrender yourself to her she means to like be good and go to Jesus and stuff. Thats what her mission is. To lead ppl back to Jesus.

And Dbrant how many times do we have to tell you WE DONT WORSHIP MARY

Originally posted by Croat56

When she sais surrender yourself to her she means to like be good and go to Jesus and stuff. Thats what her mission is. To lead ppl back to Jesus.

So, you are saying that this "complete surrender" has no meaning beyond "standard Catholic devotion" to Mary? I am not so certain that is the case.

I am not sure you are familiar with a book called Jesus Living in Mary: Handbook of the Spirituality of St. Louis de Montfort. I wasn't until I began to research information concerning Marian visitations.
(Thanks Jake1997 ). Here is a link to an online version.

Now, within this "handbook" there is a section called "Legion of Mary". I shall quote from that section for you to consider.

Stressing the utter dependence of the slave of Mary, the Handbook goes on to say: “But the earthly slave is far freer than the slave of Mary. The former remains master of his thoughts and inner life, and thus may be free in everything that matters to him. But the surrender to Mary bears with it everything: each thought, the movements of the soul, the hidden riches, the inmost self. All—on to the final breath—is committed to her that she may expend it all for God.”34

I am extremely cautious when it comes to spiritual visitations. When I examine one, I automatically assume it is not of God. Simply put, if it is of God, neither God nor the spirit will be offended by my caution, and God will reveal the truth behind the visitation.

Being ever cautious, this is what I read at the end (bolded words added for clarification): "--is committed to her that she may or may not expend it all for God.”"

Now, I am working from the assumption that the complete surrender I mentioned is indeed refering to the same surrender outlined above. So, I shall ask again, is a call to surrender to any but God wholesome?

But, if what this apparition of Mary meant was something different from what she said, why did she not say what she meant?



[edit on 16-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by Croat56

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
June 13, 1985 "Dear children! During these days surrender yourselves completely to me! Thank your for having responded to my call."
[edit on 15-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

And Dbrant how many times do we have to tell you WE DONT WORSHIP MARY

If "Mary" meant surrender to Jesus she probably should have used the word Jesus instead of the word me. It's quite obvious she meant me, as in herself. We are told in the Bible that the dead cannot come back and communicate with us.

This is going to be blunt. You have knowledge that others refuse to see. You know there is a Jesus and He was more than a mortal man. You have been blessed to be able to see this, because not everyone knows this.

You now have an enemy who desires to draw you away from God. You are going to have to be very diligent as you search for truth in all this. satan is like a lion looking for someone to devour according to the Bible. Lions hide in the bushes waiting to pounce on their prey. Satan is hiding in these "visions." The Bible alone must be your guide, you have to search diligently. Visions of Mary are not Biblical. I am not telling you this to destroy your faith, I'm telling you this to strengthen your faith.

Um Mary didnt die she was raised into heaven

Mary is doing a good thing there. Most ppl who go there who are not catholic convert and it is now the confession capital of the world. She is bringing more and more ppl to the faith. She is guilding them to Jesus.

Originally posted by Croat56
Um Mary didnt die she was raised into heaven

Mary is doing a good thing there. Most ppl who go there who are not catholic convert and it is now the confession capital of the world. She is bringing more and more ppl to the faith. She is guilding them to Jesus.

And, still being ever cautious, I would argue that some spirits that are not of God are extremely patient. If they could corrupt but one soul, even while others are brought to faith, they would have accomplished their goal. If the corruption was then seen as holy, it would only work in their favor the next time, as they would be more likely to be accepted.

The RC teaches that Mary was taken body and soul into heaven at the end of her human life. The official wording does not exclude her body being taken after a normal human death.

However, if you would like to answer a question concerning her bodily assumption: If Mary was taken Body and Soul to Heaven, why/how does she return to earth without her body during these visitations?

Edit:

And my questions remained unanswered:

Now, I am working from the assumption that the complete surrender I mentioned is indeed refering to the same surrender outlined above. So, I shall ask again, is a call to surrender to any but God wholesome?

But, if what this apparition of Mary meant was something different from what she said, why did she not say what she meant?





[edit on 16-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

We should bring Flyersfan back she's good at explaining things

Originally posted by Croat56
Um Mary didnt die she was raised into heaven:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgement.

God thought it was important to let us know in the Bible that Enoch and Elijah were taken and did not see death. If He would have done the same for Mary He would have told us in the Bible.

Originally posted by Croat56
We should bring Flyersfan back she's good at explaining things

You don't need Flyersfan. God is talking to YOU. You need to search the Bible.

Originally posted by Croat56
We should bring Flyersfan back she's good at explaining things

I'm interested in any input from the Catholic perspective, though I do suggest you consider the questions I asked on your own as well. I don't think the questions contradict RCC teachings so you should be able to find an answer.

Originally posted by Croat56
And Dbrant how many times do we have to tell you
WE DONT WORSHIP MARY

You'll have to tell him 7 times 7 times... a day.
And know what ... they still won't get it. You see
Croat, it's muuuuuuuch easier for people to just
believe the anti-Catholic Chick tracts and their
anti-Catholic ministers, than it is for them to actually
get up out of their computer chair, find a Catholic
Catechism ... AND READ IT.

Catholics don't worship Mary. Catholics don't worship
the pope. Catholics don't worship statues. Catholics
don't .... I could go on, but it would be a waste of
breathe and space on here. Point is - read the
catechism people. Educate yourselves.

Originally posted by dbrandt
The Bible alone must be your guide

db I'm sure you mean well. But if you think that 'Bible Alone' is
the way to go, then YOU are not following what the bible says.

I repeat -

The bible doesn't contain all of Christ's teachings. The bible even
says so - 'if all Jesus' teachings were written down, then there
wouldn't be enough books in the world to hold them
all'. You want to be Sola Scriptura. Fine. It's your choice to pursue a
non-biblical notion of 'bible only'. No where in the bible does it say
'bible only' and in fact the bible itself says that there is MUCH more
truth than the bible holds. The bible itself says to hold and pass
down sacred traditions. The Catholic church adheres to this biblical
teaching.

you should know that the bible itself (put together by a Catholic counsel
~350ad) says that the bible isn't all there is to faith.

Sola scriptura is a notion invented by Martin Luther while he reworked
the bible to fit his newly invented religion. Tossed out books. Lined
through others. Rearranged according to 'importance'. etc. etc. Scared
the crap out of the other 'reformers' while he was doing it. They had to
pull him back or else nothing would have been left.

Anyways - some scripture quotes that support sacred traditions and
oral teachings -

Mark 4:33 - "With many such parables he spoke the word to them .."
(what were the others? Scripture doesn't contain ...)
Mark 6:34 "He began to teach them many things."
(what things? Scripture doesn't contain)
John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you can not
bear them now."
(what things? Scripture doesn't contain)
Jon 20:30 - "now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the
disciples, which are not written in this book"
(what things? Scripture doesn't contain)
John 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did;
were every one of them to be written, I suppose the world itself could
not contain the books that would be written."
Acts 1:2-3 - To the apostles he presented himself alive after his
passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days,
and speaking of the kingdom of God"
(what things were taught? It's not written down)
See also Luke 24:15-16, 25-27

So we have Sacred tradition and oral teachings ... which the bible
encourages us to use.

1 Cor 11:2 - "Maintain the traditions ... even as I have delivered them to you."
2 Thess 2:15 "Hold to the traditions .. taught by word of mouth or by letter."
2 Thess 3:6 "... traditions that you received from us"
1 Cor 15:1 - " ... the Gospel, which you received ..."
1 Gal 1:9 - " ... the gospel .. which you received."

Visions of Mary are not Biblical.

We are told in the Bible that the dead cannot
come back and communicate with us.

Mary appearing in visions are not in the bible because she was still
alive when the books of the bible were written. It was MARY who
must have told Luke about the birth of Christ and the finding of
Christ in the Temple. Who else would have known such intimate
things ... what she pondered in her heart after the prophet and
prophetess told her things at the presentation of Christ in the
temple as a baby? Mary. She was alive through all of it, except
perhaps Revelation - which is a highly questionable book to begin
with and which was rejected by much of the church, and many of
the saints, for many hundreds of years.

Also - the 'communion of saints' is very real and IS biblical -

Saints are aware of earthly affairs - Matthew 22:30, Luke 15:10;
1 Cor 4:9, Hebrews 12:1

Saints intercede for those on earth - Jer 15:1:2, Macc 15:14; Rev 6:9-10

Saints are intermediaries and present our prayers to God - Rev 5:8

Saints appear on earth to interact with men - 1 Sam 28:12-15,
with Sirach 46:20; 2 Macc 15:13-16; Matt 17:1-3 and 27:50-53;
Revelation 11:3.

We have the dead saints whose graves were opened and many
arose and walked - Matt 27:52-53. This was before Mary died and
was assumed into heaven ... but God did this with the saints so
he can certainly do it for the Mother of Jesus.

So in places the bible does say that some of the dead can not
come back to interact with the living. In other places, it says
that they do.

[edit on 5/18/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by dbrandt
God thought it was important to let us know in the Bible that Enoch and Elijah were taken and did not see death. If He would have done the same for Mary He would have told us in the Bible.

See previous comment. The bible was written BEFORE Mary died.
Except for Revelation. Mary was the one who told Luke all about
what she pondered in her heart, etc. She wasn't dead when the
gospels were written AND there are many things that happened
that the bible didn't write down. The bible even says so. History
didn't stop when Revelation was written either. Life continued on.
God's work continued. It continues today. I won't disavow God's
miracles that He works today just because they didn't happen
2,000 years ago so they could be written in the bible.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
I am not sure you are familiar with a book called Jesus Living
in Mary: Handbook of the Spirituality of St. Louis de Montfort

I am very familiar with it. Just jumping into deep theology and
contemplation will just confuse you. It takes prayer and the gift
of contemplation (from God) to better understand what the
contemplatives speak of. It also takes GOOGLE and reading
explainations. Don't forget ... you are separated from St.
Louis de Montfort by hundreds of years, language differences,
faith differences, and you are also separated by him being
a contemplative and you are not (you are obviously 'in the
world' and not in a prayer retreat).

www.cin.org...

excerpt -

Because of the style and contents of his preaching, this Elijah- like prophet
was regarded by quite a few as at least a strange misfit. He was poisoned
and although it did not prove fatal, it caused his health to deteriorate
even more rapidly. Other attempts were made on his life, yet Montfort was
not deterred. The Jesuits, the Sulpicians, the Dominicans (whose Third
Order he joined in 1710) would always be his support. He deeply
experienced that his entire life was in the loving hands of Jesus, or as he
would put it, he was the "loving slave of Jesus in Mary," always
understanding "slave" in its New Testament sense of total, loving
dependence, as Mary calls herself the slave girl of the Lord (Lk 1:38) and
as Paul identifies himself as the slave of Jesus Christ (Rom 1:1).

He had so deepened his life in Christ that he had no desire to be
a "success," no yearning for any mystical experience, no drive for renown.
His only desire was to be the lute the Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom would play, producing whatever melody the Spirit wished. In this active,
responsible, lived-out consecration to the Incarnate Wisdom through Mary,
he found peace and the power to share the Gospel with all whom he
encountered.


www.sspx.ca...
(this is not ROMAN Catholic... it's St. Pius X ... which is considered
a breakaway group by Rome.)

excerpt -

The "Holy Slavery of Love" which is a consequence of Total Consecration to
Jesus through Mary is, in itself, basically an ancient idea as Montfort
himself observes. A number of the Fathers of the Church are said to have
used the expressions "Slave of Mary" and "Slave of the Mother of God," as
did also some of the Popes, and there were confraternities of "Holy
Slavery" before the time of St. Louis de Montfort (1673-1716). But full
credit must be given to Montfort for developing the notion of "Holy Slavery"
in such detail and to such perfection, and for applying it, as he does, to
Jesus and Mary as to an inseparable unit. Thus, though Montfort's
devotion to Mary is not the only "true" kind of devotion to her, it is
nevertheless a "perfect" form of devotion to her independently of any
comparison with other forms.

The perfection of Montfort's form of devotion to Mary is due to the fact that
it calls for a total giving of oneself, not just to Mary alone, but rather to
Jesus, Whom Montfort loves to acknowledge as the "Incarnate Wisdom,"
through the hands of Mary. Thus, if one is a true "Slave of Mary," he is first
and above all a "Slave of Jesus," being subject to Him as God and then to
her as Mother of God. The very notion of "slavery” implies total subjection
and subservience, but there is obviously nothing degrading or ignoble, nor
could there possibly be, in the total subjection of "Holy Slavery" to Jesus
and Mary. "Holy Slavery" logically follows upon Total .Consecration, for such
consecration implies and means "total surrender" and "total
abandonment" to Jesus and Mary.





[edit on 5/18/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Could one of the Catholics (Roman or Orthodox) on the board please explain to me how a call for complete surrender to any but God is wholesome?

"let your prayer be a sign of surrender to God ...
surrender yourselves completely to me!

I think this question has been answered by the 'slave' quotes earlier.
If not, Raphael, let me know and I will do my best to say it differently
so that you can understand. Did you notice that she says 'surrender to
God' and then afterwards 'surrender to me'? Mary always leads people
to God. Always. She told them to surrender to God. When people trust
her she can take them to God.

As far as honoring Mary, here is a quote from Jesuit Nicholas Russo
in 1886 - In honoring Mary, what else are we doing but imitating the
heavenly messenger who saluted her as full of grace, united to God
('the Lord is with thee'), blessed among women! What are all the
praises which the Church offers to Mary ... but a faint commentary on
the words of the archangel! What is the veneration we have for her
but the fulfillment of the prophecy made by our heavenly Mother herself
when, filled with the Holy Ghost, magnifying the Lord and extolling His
mercy, she exclaimed: "all generations shall call me blessed"?
(luke 1:43). To suppress our feelings, therefore, would not only be
inconsistent with the filial love we should have for her, but also would
contradict the clear teaching of the Gospel.

- quote from Nicholas Russo, 'The True Religion' (New York: P.J Kennedy
and Sons, 1886), pages 270-271.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
However, if you would like to answer a question concerning her bodily assumption: If Mary was taken Body and Soul to Heaven, why/how does she return to earth without her body during these visitations?

She doesn't. The Roman Catholic Church will never approve a visitation
by Mary in which she appears see-through or ghost like. She is not a
ghost. She has already been given her glorified risen body such as we
(who will go to heaven) will receive when we rise from the dead in the
end. Christ walked through walls, traveled distances in the blink of an
eye, and so on with His glorified body. He was a solid person and yet
he moved like this. So does Mary. So will we (if we get to Heaven that
is).

www.catholic.com...



[edit on 5/18/2005 by FlyersFan]