The Miracle of Medjugorje

Originally posted by jake1997
Seems pretty clear to me that Mary and Jojo did the Nasty.
but not UNTIL after Jesus was born. I guess we can say its biblical

Man .. where did you dig up those AWFUL translations? Been
slumming in the gutters? Most didn't even come close to the
original Greek. UGH. Ya' gotta' do better than that trib-boy.

Also ... read the post above yours. The 'until' has been answered.
You have been debunked. If you read that and you still think
it's 'clear to you' that Mary and Joseph had relations .. then
you need glasses. Until is used many times in scripture. MANY ..
and after the word until .. nothing changes. Try READING what is
posted before speaking. You might learn something about the
bible.

MARY is the MOTHER OF GOD

The Ecumenical Council of Ephesus 431 A.D. (not C.E. folks … A.D.)
Approval of Second Letter of Cyril of Alexandria to Nestorius for the
Definition of Mary Mother of God – It is not that an ordinary man was born
first of the holy Vigin, on whom afterward the Word descended; what we
say is that, being united with the flesh from the womb, (the Word) has
undergone birth in the flesh, making the birh in the flesh His own … Thus
(the holy Fathers) have unhesitatingly called the holy Virgin “Mother of
God” (Theotokos – God Bearer). This does not mean that the nature of
the Word of His divinity received the beginning of its existence from the
holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul,
which the Word united to Himself according to the hypostatis, was born
from her, the Word was born according to the flesh.

Ludwig Ott – Scripture implicitly affirms Mary’s Divine motherhood by
attesting, on the one hand, the true Divinity of Christ, and on the other
hand, Mary’s true motherhood. Thus Mary is called: ‘Mother of Jesus’
(John 2:1) .. “Mother of the Lord” (Luke 1:43). Mary’s true motherhood is
clearly foretold by the Prophet Isaiah: ‘Behold a virgin shall conveive and
bear a Son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel” (Isaiah 7:14) … The
Woman who bore the Son of God is the Progenitress of God, or the Mother
of God (Matt 1:18, 12:46, 13:55; Luke 1:31, 35: Gal 4:4)

So … Mary is the Mother of God. She didn’t generate His soul any more
than YOUR mother generated your soul. She carried Him in her womb,
bore Him, took care of Him, raised Him and so on. Just as your mother did
for you (I hope). The early church at the General Council of Ephesus in
431 A.D. saw the basic truth of this and declared it to be so.

Hey .. if there really were younger children by Mary and Joseph
(which the bible NEVER says 'child of Mary and Joseph') ... where
where they when Jesus was 12 and lost in the temple? Never
mentioned - because they didn't exhist.


Quote from the book - A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong

Firstborn. The use of this term to assert that Mary had 'second-borns' and
'third-borns' proves nothing, since the primary meaning of the Greek
'prototokos' is "pre-eminent". to illustrate: David is described by God as
the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth (ps. 89:27). Likewise,
God refers to Ephraim (Jer. 31:9) and the nation Israel (Exod. 4:22) as
"my firstborn". Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians
1:15, meaning, according to all reputable Greek lexicons, that he was pre-
eminent over creation, that is, the Creator. The Jewish rabbinical writers
even called God the Father Bekorah Shelalam, meaning "firstborn".
Similarly, God is called the "first" in Scripture (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12
cf Rev 1:8, 21:6-7). Christians are called "the firstborn" in Hebrews 12:23.
Literally speaking, however, among Jews, the firstborn was ordinarily the
child who was first to open the womb (Exod 13:2), whether there were
older children or not. This is probably the meaning of Matt 1:25, in which
case, hypothetical younger children of Mary are not implied at all,
contrary to the standard present-day Prot4estant assertions.

Originally posted by jake1997
(ASV) and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

(CEV) But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

(ESV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

(GB) But he knew her not, til she had broght forth her first borne sonne, and he called his name JESUS.

(GNT) καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκε τόν υἱόν αὐτῆς τόν πρωτότοκον, καὶ ἐκάλεσε τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Ιησοῦν.

(HNV) and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Yeshua.

(ISV) He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

(KJVR) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

(MSG) But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

(SVD) وَلَمْ يَعْرِفْهَا حَتَّى وَلَدَتِ ابْنَهَا الْبِكْرَ. وَدَعَا اسْمَهُ يَسُوعَ.


Seems pretty clear to me that Mary and Jojo did the Nasty.

but not UNTIL after Jesus was born.

I guess we can say its biblical

So even in the face of the truth, you will say that God lied in the bible, and take up the RCC doctrine?

Wow I just watched Gospa. Now im kinda sad. To think how much father Jozo suffered and how 601 croatian priests were put to death.

You have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Man .. where did you dig up those AWFUL translations? Been
slumming in the gutters?

Yeah...it was just some off the wall stuff.

King James
Geneava
American Standard
English Standard
Message


Mat 1:25 And2532 knew1097 her846 not3756 till2193 she had brought forth5088 her848 firstborn4416 son:5207 and2532 he called2564 his846 name3686 JESUS.2424

G2193
ἕως
heōs
heh'-oce
Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).

Yep.
Just like the bible says. No perpetual virginity

Well its official! This summer I am going to Medjugorje! I am going to meet Ivan Dragicivic! I am so excited. I wonder if the blessed mother will appear on any pictures I take. That would be awsome!

Still sad after watching Gospa though To think the army tried stop ppl from going to church. They were ready to shoot them! Then the whole crowd shouted ave(spelling) ave mariiiia. Very inspiring.

Croat .. when are you going? We went at the end of May.
It was a beautiful time of year in the country
(even with the MIGS flying overhead and the machine guns
and soldiers in the airports)

[edit on 5/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

Ryan .. you are hopeless. Your signature says 'deny ignorance'
but considering how you post and the lack of education that you
are advertising .. that means you would have to deny yourself.
This will be my last response to your rants. That's all they are,
Ryan, rants. You aren't bothering to read anything that has been
posted that debunks EVERYTHING you have said. What are you
doing Ryan ... running back to your cult at tribforces.com and
getting help? Tell them that you, and they, are failures. You all
obviously haven't got a clue ... not a single clue ...

RYAN - TRY to read this. Then go away and let Croat discuss
the Medjugorje apparitions. It's his thread and your ignorant
bigotry has hijacked it. If you had been discussing the possibility
or impossibility of Mary appearing, that would have been one thing.
But you have just been 'blah blah blahing' debunked junk. Go away.

#1 - Yes, those are bad translations. For the love of God just
look at them. They aren't the same. They are all over the board
with injected modern phrases and terminology. Here's a basic
lesson for you Ryan. Try to get it through your head ... go to the
ORIGINAL text when reading the bible. The original phrase was
'knew' .. it wasn't 'had sex' it wasn't 'did the dirty' it wasn't 'had
marital relations' .. it was 'knew'. The other translations are CRAP.

#2 - The word 'until' has been discussed but of course you didn't
bother to read it. If you had you wouldn't have plastered that
ignorance at the bottom of your signature. If you want to advertise
your ignorance, go ahead ... it's YOU that's looking silly. I'll post it
one last time since it usually takes three or four times for people
saying things for you to get it through your head ...

The word 'until' is used many times in the bible and it many times
there wasn't a change after the word until.

The word 'till' does not necessarily imply that they lived on a different
footing afterward - as will be evident from the use of the same word in
1 Samuel 15:35; 2 Samuel 6:23; Matthew 12:20; also Romans 8:22,
1 Timothy 4:13, 6:14, and Rev 2:25.

Protestants who believed in Mary's perpetual virginity - John Calvin,
Martin Luther, Zwingli, Bullinger and John Wesley. Also - It was
absolute belief in the early church until the fourth century when
a fellow named Helvidus tried to argue against it .. against St. Jerome.
Jerome cleaned his clock.

Now Ryan ... everything you have posted has been debunked, sometimes
debunked 3 or 4 times. EVERYTHING has been shot down. Go away and
let Croat talk with folks about Medjugorje.


[edit on 5/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

Who is ryan?
You on the sauce again Flyers Fan? :w:
Your tone belies that you have actually found the truth but wont admit it

The word 'till' does not necessarily imply that they lived on a different
footing afterward - as will be evident from the use of the same word in
1 Samuel 15:35; 2 Samuel 6:23; Matthew 12:20; also Romans 8:22,
1 Timothy 4:13, 6:14, and Rev 2:25.

I saw and read that. It does not make your point.

1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

When did he see him? Not until the day of his death. BUT he saw him.
Thats a freebee for ya

Its not Greek either. SO lets goto the New Testament. Mat is where we find that verse so lets see how mat uses it

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Mat 1:17 has the greek word used 3 times. It is used with one meaning.

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Same here.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Again, a definite.. "It was this way UNTIL...
And yes, the GREEK IS THE SAME.

1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
This is used in a different tense, same meaning. Do this until.....

and chapter 6

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Be good till Jesus returns.
Yeah..you got one. Its used in a different way here.

Now lets look back at 1:25

Mat 1:25 But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

All the translations agree. Mary is not a virgin.
You have too much faith in the lies of the RCC to see the truth.
Too much faith in mary ghosts to see the truth.

You KNOW Im showing you the truth, but your PRIDE wont let you believe Gods word.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now you can go ahead and attack me again avoid the truth in your words at all costs, but it wont make it right. Instead of just looking at that verse you have been all over the place.
Your mary ghost is a demon.
IF those people actually do see her...it is a demon.

Well Croat ... the past 7 pages have been a good biblical lesson for
us, hasn't it. Poor Jake .. you can lead an idiot to the truth but you
can't make him think. 2 Peter sounds like he knew Jake personally -

2 Peter 3:16 - St. Peter says in regards to St. Paul's epistles there
are 'certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and
unstable wrest (distort), as they do also the other scriptures, to
their own destruction"

Trib-boy was completely debunked and yet can't get out of his
anti-biblical cult of sola scriptura. When you go to Medjugorje say
an extra prayer for him. He needs it. (obviously)

Acts 8:26-40 - Philip has to teach the poor Ethiopian what the scripture
means. At least the Ethiopian isn't in a cult like poor Jake. The
Ethiopian was capable of learning scripture -

"Thinkest though that thou understandest what thou readest?"
"how can I, unless some man show me?"

Pray for him Croat. Pray hard for him when you are there. There are
many more just like him, trapped in unbiblical sola scriptura.

Oh Croat .... let me know if I can help you find a good retreat. I've been
on a few and I might be able to help you with that.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Well Croat ... the past 7 pages have been a good biblical lesson for
us, hasn't it. Poor Jake .. you can lead an idiot to the truth but you
can't make him think.

Perhaps this is yet the best indicator of how well you are following scripture. Surely you are not able to split hairs if you cant handle this part

Trib-boy was completely debunked and yet can't get out of his
anti-biblical cult of sola scriptura.

MOre of the same.
We can add to this the fact that you called me a theif.
You were yelling to RANT that I stole work from another site , accusing me like...hmm...who is the one that accuses us night and day?

The Ethiopian was capable of learning scripture -

Yep...that is what I expected in my last post. Attacks and jabs.
When you cant face the truth, attack the bearer of the message.

Well done

Here ya' go Croat - this isn't medjugorje - it's Lourdes.
Figured you might like to see the webcam from there.
Give it a minute to download.

www.lourdes-france.org...

And another one Croat - live adoration cam
www.monksofadoration.org...

Some folks like to have this running on their computer
while they are at work .. nice.

[edit on 5/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Croat .. when are you going? We went at the end of May.
It was a beautiful time of year in the country
(even with the MIGS flying overhead and the machine guns
and soldiers in the airports)

[edit on 5/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

I am leaving to go to Croatia on July 13 ( uh oh unlucky number ) I will probably go there a few weeks after we arrive. We havent decided exactly when we are gonna go.

Thank you for the links. Although I consider Medjugorje more important

Have you ever seen the movie Gospa with Martin Sheen? Its a very good movie about it. I watched it yesturday.

Dont worry Flyersfan I knew these ppl would come from the very first post. If they wish to spout their mindless dribble, then let them. All we can do is explain and pray that they understand.

Oh and you accidently said Ryan instead of Jake, just so you know

Hey I say we all just agree that Jesus is the one true lord and savior and kiss and make up. Have you guys ever heard that song by Relient K called Down in Flames? It basically is sending a message saying we need to stop arguing amongst ourselves based on different interpretations of the doctrine and start saving the world like we are supposed to. It was Satan who tricked us into fighting the petty fight amongst ourselves as opposed to winning the war against Satan.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Ryan .. you are hopeless. Your signature says 'deny ignorance'
but considering how you post and the lack of education that you
are advertising .. that means you would have to deny yourself.
This will be my last response to your rants. That's all they are,
Ryan, rants. You aren't bothering to read anything that has been
posted that debunks EVERYTHING you have said. What are you
doing Ryan ... running back to your cult at tribforces.com and
getting help? Tell them that you, and they, are failures. You all
obviously haven't got a clue ... not a single clue ...

RYAN - TRY to read this. Then go away and let Croat discuss
the Medjugorje apparitions. It's his thread and your ignorant
bigotry has hijacked it. If you had been discussing the possibility
or impossibility of Mary appearing, that would have been one thing.
But you have just been 'blah blah blahing' debunked junk. Go away.

#1 - Yes, those are bad translations. For the love of God just
look at them. They aren't the same. They are all over the board
with injected modern phrases and terminology. Here's a basic
lesson for you Ryan. Try to get it through your head ... go to the
ORIGINAL text when reading the bible. The original phrase was
'knew' .. it wasn't 'had sex' it wasn't 'did the dirty' it wasn't 'had
marital relations' .. it was 'knew'. The other translations are CRAP.

#2 - The word 'until' has been discussed but of course you didn't
bother to read it. If you had you wouldn't have plastered that
ignorance at the bottom of your signature. If you want to advertise
your ignorance, go ahead ... it's YOU that's looking silly. I'll post it
one last time since it usually takes three or four times for people
saying things for you to get it through your head ...

The word 'until' is used many times in the bible and it many times
there wasn't a change after the word until.

The word 'till' does not necessarily imply that they lived on a different
footing afterward - as will be evident from the use of the same word in
1 Samuel 15:35; 2 Samuel 6:23; Matthew 12:20; also Romans 8:22,
1 Timothy 4:13, 6:14, and Rev 2:25.

Protestants who believed in Mary's perpetual virginity - John Calvin,
Martin Luther, Zwingli, Bullinger and John Wesley. Also - It was
absolute belief in the early church until the fourth century when
a fellow named Helvidus tried to argue against it .. against St. Jerome.
Jerome cleaned his clock.

Now Ryan ... everything you have posted has been debunked, sometimes
debunked 3 or 4 times. EVERYTHING has been shot down. Go away and
let Croat talk with folks about Medjugorje.


[edit on 5/2/2005 by FlyersFan]

FlyersFan

lol, i think you owe me an appology. I don't even have a signature. I dont recall saying any of those things. In fact, you could argue I am the only one defending your stance. My position on this is a no position. I have no clue what you are talking about in the above statement, but unless it is something i said, you definitely owe me an appology. That was a very insulting statement you made to me. It wasn't very christian of you in any aspect.

Ryan.

Originally posted by Croat56

What are contained in the "secrets" that Our Lady has given the visionaries?

We know very little about the secrets of Medjugorje. First, Our has Lady allowed the third secret to be known, which is: There will a permanent, indestructable, supernatural sign left at the place of Our Lady's first apparition in Medjugorje on the hill Podbrdo at the conclusion of the apparitions. Second, we know that an evil that faced the world, which was contained in the 7th secret was eliminated due to prayer and fasting. And lastly, we know that the 9th and 10th secrets are chastisements for the sins of the world. They can not be eliminated as the 7th secret but can be lessened by our prayers and fasting. Please also see our page: "Overview on Medjugorje"

What is every1s thoughts on this? I wonder what it would be.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
lol, i think you owe me an appology. I don't even have a signature.

I thought it was obvious that I called Jake 'Ryan' accidently. So I apologize
for making an error in names. I had just talked to another Ryan and I was
addressing Jake. Typo. So yes ... LOL.

Croat - I looked for a live cam for medjugorje and didn't find one. The
Lourdes one is very nice though.

One memory I have from Medjugorje was of one evening on the way to
evening prayers. Everyone climbes up apparition hill to pray the rosary
along with Ivan or one of the others (I don't think it's ever Viska). It was
getting dark and thousands of people were climbing the hill with
flashlights. Everyone was a little spark of light on the mountain. All the
sparks were flowing ... it was like rivers of light flowing up the hill to pray.

It was really amazing. Very beautiful.

www.spiritdaily.com...

Croat (and anyone else truly interested in Medjugorje)

Here is an article about Medjugorje that came out today.
Seems Ratzinger (Benedict 16) may have gone there.
ALso, some quotes by PJPII about the place.