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The Miracle of Medjugorje

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posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Why does Mary have to be a virgin forever?

She doesn't have to be. I don't care if she is or not.
However, it seems that she is. That's God's idea, not
mine. Ask Him why He decided that the mother of Jesus
wouldn't have any other children.

Actually, considering how the world is, it's a pretty good
idea. (this is MY thought, not church teaching here. ..).
Think about it. If there were blood decendents from Mary
and Joseph, somewhere someone would try to take over
the world and claim to be a blood relative of Jesus. Knowing
humanity ... it would happen. I'm just glad that there weren't
any brothers and sisters and so there weren't any nieces and
nephews and so on ... YIKES!


It's even mentioned that Jesus is her firstborn implying
that she had more sons.

Firstborn son is more of a title than anything else. It was used
to imply a standing of significance in the family and inheritence.
It is not proof in itself that there were others. It could be used
when there were more than one .. it could be used when there
was only one ... It's a status thing.




posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by jake1997
I can find a place in the bible where it says Jesus had brothers.
Can you find one that says cousins?

This is basic bible history stuff. You never studied, did you?
The original language of scripture didn't allow for the word
cousins. Brothers and sisters were the words used for ALL
blood relatives. Brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles,
whatever. Abraham called Sarah his sister and yet they
were not born of the same father and mother.


Ok, so I can find where it says brother

You cant find where it says couisn

You cant find where it says mary is a prepetual virgin either

You cant find where it says mary is sinless either

You cant find where it says mary was taken up in a whirlwind either

You cant find anyone glorifying mary for being Jesus mother

You cant find where it says mary is from mars

You cant find where it says mary had a plate in her head

You cant find where it says she toted an UZI

You cant find where it says she had a familiar cat

You cant find where it says she was a grandma

You cant find where it says Jesus got married

You cant find where it says Jesus cant refuse mary

You cant find where it says mary ....

and your only answer can be

It doesnt say that it didnt happen...so it happened.

Now look at the door you open for the UFO folks and the Da Vinci folks..etc..

See how rediculous it is?



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Which is it? Is mary the mother of Jesus or God? You will
say that God and Jesus are the same. Thats a lie. They
are one, but not the same.


Did I say that God the Father and Jesus were one in the same?
hmmmm ... I don't think so.

Do you understand the Holy Trinity at all Jake? Three Persons,
one God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Mary is the mother of Jesus,
the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. He is God incarnate.
She is the mother of Jesus who is God. She is the mother of God.

From John - 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God and the Word was God.'

Jesus - (paraphrase) why do you ask to see the Father. I have
been with you for three years now. Don't you know who I Am?
If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

One God. Three persons. Mary is the mother of the second person,
Jesus, who is God - the Word - incarnate.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Ok, so I can find where it says brother
You cant find where it says couisn

You didn't listen at all Jake. The LANGUAGE at that time
didn't account for the word cousin. All blood relatives were
called brother and sister. Geeeze ... TRY to understand
basic bible history here.

You cant find where it says mary is a prepetual virgin either

Hey Jake .. if you can't prove she had children, then she's a virgin.
And no where in the bible does it say so-and-so, son of Mary and
Joseph. It doesn't say it. You can't find it. Therefore virgin until
proven otherwise.

See how rediculous it is?

Yes. I see how rediculous you are being. It's very clear.
You aren't bothering to read what a person answers are you?
Just getting off on spewing bible quotes that have nothing to
do with the conversation. Sad. Very sad.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:17 PM
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Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

God uses the word forever alot.
It seems clear that it did not fit here



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Jesus sent them there as a witness TO the non beleving priests.
Those priests were not the shepards!

You are free to believe that if it makes you happy.


It believes in evolution

Not exactly Jake. Although I'm sure you hope that it does.
PJPII said that if people believed in evolution it was okay as
long as they believed that it was GOD's guiding hand that
moved evolution to a point where he had two people to
infuse human souls into. He didn't say that evolution
happened, he said that there were still two people - Adam
and Eve.

It willfully violates the commandments about graven images

Nope. Already discussed this Jake. You aren't learning anything are
you. Just enjoying listening to yourself spout? Do the people who
go to Washington DC worship Lincoln when they visit the Lincoln
Memorial? Do people who have pictures in their homes of relatives
and special events worship those people? Are you worshipping
someone when you go to them and ask them to pray for you to
God? The answer to all these is NO. And neither do Catholics
worship graven images. Pictures and statues are in churchs to
raise our hearts and minds to God and we ask the people who are
in heaven to pray for us to God.. just as you ask other people
to pray for you. Try opening a catechism some day to see what
Catholics really believe Jake.

Murder...the inquisition and crusades

Not good stuff, but hardly a damning event. The apostles
themselves ran off when Jesus needed them most. They
fell short and screwed up. They redeemed themselves.
So did the Catholic church.

The nun rape by priests scandal that is bigger
then the pedophile scandal. The pedophile scandal

Yep. And the protestant churches have much the same thing
going on. Just it's not as fun to pick on the prottys. The
protestant minister in the next town over was 'taking care of'
a rape victim in his parish. She was the organist. He took care
of her alright. He'd leave hankies full of his semen that he
jacked off ... he'd leave 'em on her organ before worship services.
Protty's have problems in their churches too.

The worship of mary and bowing before idols

Catholics don't worship Mary. We don't worship idols.
Get the catechism and get educated Jake.

Telling muslims that they are going to heaven

Don't know about that. Haven't heard that. Only God knows who
is going to heaven and who isn't. I wouldn't judge if a muslim is
going to heaven or hell ... that's God's job.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You are 100% right there Jake.. and judging YOUR fruits, I'd say
we have enough fruitcake available for everyone to partake of.
You are just regurgitating old Jack Chick tracts and honestly it's
gone past comical .. it's just sad. Shouting 'you believe this' and
'you believe that' ... and it's all wrong. Educate yourself before
you say anything else Jake. Stop embarassing yourself.

[edit on 5/1/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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What you have done here is called a reaction, and not a response

A response requires scripture.

As for islam...it denys christ is the son of God. That is called the spirit of the antichrist in the bible.

JP2 says they are heaven bound and so are the jews because they follow the god of abraham.

bad fruit



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

God uses the word forever alot.
It seems clear that it did not fit here


And this?



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
A response requires scripture.


Only in your sola scriptura cult Jake. Only in your cult.

-Bible history- is a response to your 'question' (attack really)
about Jesus blood relatives. History that happened while
the bible events took place, but that isn't listed in the bible.
Nowhere in the bible will you find the exact words -
'hey, there is no word for cousin so we used the words
brothers and sisters' . But it is a historical fact.

So no Jake, responses do not always require scripture. And as
I have repeatedly pointed out to you the bible itself says that
there is truth that isn't in the bible. Truth that is handed down
in sacred tradition and oral teachings (which the bible encourages,
as I have shown you with bible quotes) But considering that I have
told you about more truth than the bible holds, and I have given you
scripture quotes about it, half a dozen times in the past week ...
considering all that and you still don't get it .. I think I'm wasting
time trying to hold an educated discussion with you.

'A response requires scripture?' If that is how you live life, then
get thee back to thy anti-bible cult - lemme' guess ..
tribulation forces dot com?



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by jake1997
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

God uses the word forever alot.
It seems clear that it did not fit here


And this?



What about this?

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

God uses the word forever alot.
It seems clear that it did not fit here

Im starting to feel like a broken record.

and about the scripture thing..
Im merely following the way Jesus did it.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by dbrandt
The faith you talk about is placed in whom/what?

God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Faith saves. Works are an outward sign of God's
saving grace in our souls.



Faith in Jesus Christ. What He has done on the cross to atone for sin is what removes our sin.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 03:43 PM
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Thanks Flyers fan, I knew from my first post that these ppl would come. I admit I fell asleep a couple times during theology. Im so ashamed of myself
. Ah well if they dont want to listen they dont have to.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Abraham called Sarah his sister and yet they
were not born of the same father and mother.





They were half brother and sister. They had the same father but not the same mother. Genesis 20:12



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by dbrandt
If that's not what Catholicism is really about,
someone is doing an awfully poor job ,

Yes, they are doing a poor job.



I have sat and watched different programming on EWTN and keep up on some things the Pope's say. And I have to tell you what they tell is works and Mary for salvation. If you don't believe it's works that earn heaven, but faith in the already completed work of Christ alone, I'm glad. The Holy Spirit has revealed this to you. But I gotta tell you the leadership in Catholicism does not teach Jesus alone.


ps How did you get 59,000 points?

[edit on 1-5-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
You cant find where it says mary is sinless either


These actually say she had sin that had to be dealt with also.

Luke 1:47 Mary talking ,"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

And Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

In the concordance for glory in the verse it says, dignity, honour, glory, praise, worship

It seems to me this verse is telling us at least 3 things. 1. Every mortal person has sinned, and 2.it is right to give God these things(dignity, honour, glory, praise and worship) and3. it is wrong for a person to be given these things.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
I have sat and watched different programming on EWTN

A friend of ours is a priest there. He does the Life on the Rock
show. Father Francis. If you like, I will email him and ask him
about what you feel EWTN said. I know for sure that he doesn't
believe that works save. I know for sure that it isn't Catholic
teaching. I don't know why EWTN would imply such a thing.
Let me know, and if you like, I'll go straight to the source for ya'.


ps How did you get 59,000 points?

Too much chatting on my part I guess. Dunno.
I never pay attention to the point thing.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had
brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Im starting to feel like a broken record.

Geeeeeeze trib-boy ... give me a few minutes. I have other things
to do in my life. I had to take my daughter to swim team. I had
to cook dinner. I still have to clean up dinner. You aren't the only
game in town ya' know ...

The word 'till' does not necessarily imply that they lived on a different
footing afterward - as will be evident from the use of the same word in
1 Samuel 15:35; 2 Samuel 6:23; Matthew 12:20; also Romans 8:22,
1 Timothy 4:13, 6:14, and Rev 2:25.

Protestants who believed in Mary's perpetual virginity - John Calvin,
Martin Luther, Zwingli, Bullinger and John Wesley. Also - It was
absolute belief in the early church until the fourth century when
a fellow named Helvidus tried to argue against it .. against St. Jerome.
Jerome cleaned his clock.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by jake1997
You cant find where it says mary is sinless either

These actually say she had sin that had to be dealt with also.
Luke 1:47 Mary talking ,"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
And Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God


Mary definately acknowledges that she needed to be saved and that
she HAS been saved by Christ. Mary said - my spirit hath rejoiced in
God my Saviour. God already saved her.

Don't forget... God works outside of time. Mary acknowledges that
God has saved her. He must have applied Christ's saving grace to
her before she was carrying Christ. She speaks in a past tense.

This goes to something that philosophers and theologians have
pondered... Mary is the Ark of the New Convenant. I'll post something
about that later ... Jesus is the New Covenant ... Mary is the ark that
carried Him.

Oh .. don't forget that the angel greets her with - Hail FULL OF GRACE.
Grace implies more than favor ... It is a free gift, favor may be deserved
or gained. A gift is just given. The angel is giving Mary a new name
(full of grace). God did this all throughout the bible - Gen 17:5,
15, 19, Isa 45:3-4, Matt 1:21. God renamed persons to indicate
regeneration - as in Gen 17:5, 15; 32:28 or in condemnation Jer 20:3.
For ancient Hebrews, names signified the character, nature, and qualities
of a person.

FULL OF GRACE - no room for sin. At this point... the angel says
she has no sin.



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 06:37 PM
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(ASV) and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

(CEV) But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

(ESV) but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

(GB) But he knew her not, til she had broght forth her first borne sonne, and he called his name JESUS.

(GNT) καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκε τόν υἱόν αὐτῆς τόν πρωτότοκον, καὶ ἐκάλεσε τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Ιησοῦν.

(HNV) and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Yeshua.

(ISV) He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

(KJVR) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

(MSG) But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

(SVD) وَلَمْ يَعْرِفْهَا حَتَّى وَلَدَتِ ابْنَهَا الْبِكْرَ. وَدَعَا اسْمَهُ يَسُوعَ.


Seems pretty clear to me that Mary and Jojo did the Nasty.

but not UNTIL after Jesus was born.

I guess we can say its biblical



posted on May, 1 2005 @ 07:07 PM
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BRETHREN

The Greek word for brother in the New Testament is adelphos. The PROTESTANT linguistic reference – An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says –

Adelphos: denotes a brother, or a near kinsman; in the plural a community based on identity of origin or life. It is used of:

1. male children of the same parents …
2. male descendants of the same parents, Acts 7:23, 26, Heb 7:5
4 people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17, 22, Romans 9:3 …
5 any man, a neighbor, Luke 10:29; Matthew 5:22, 7:3
6 persons united by a common interest, Matt 5:47
7 persons united by a common calling, Rev 22:9
8 mankind, Matthew 25:40; Heb 2:17
9 the disciples, and so by implication, all believers, Matt 28:10; John 20:17
10 believers, apart from sex, Matt 23:8; Acts 1:15; Romans 1:13; 1 Thess 1:4; Rev 19:10 (the word sisters is used of believers, only in 1 Tim 5:2) …

- In the KJV, Jacob is called the ‘brother’ of his Uncle Laban
(Gen. 29:15; 29:10).
- Lot and Abraham (Gen 14:14; 11:26-27)
- RSV uses “kinsman” at 29:15 and 14:14
- Use of brother or brethren for mere kinsmen: Deuteronomy 23:7;
2 Sam 1:26; 1 kings 9:13, 20:32; 2 Kings 10:13-14; Jeremiah 34-9;
Amos 1:9

Neither Hebrew nor Aramaic has a word for COUSIN. The NT was written in Greek which does have such a word, but it was written from the Hebrew and Aramaic which had already used the word brother.

- Matthew 23:8 Jesus calls the crowds and disciples (23:1) his brethren.
- Matthew 12:49-50 He calls the disiples who do the will of His father
– my brothers.



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