A Second American Revolution

I read all the replies, and I have to say that I, too, fear at times that one may come...at times I wonder if it's not inevitable. Unlike many though, I think it is scary, and not something to look forward to. At heart I am
a peace lover....but I do watch as our freedom's are slowly being taken away - slowly? No, I should say quietly, because most people seem happily unaware, and that also scares me...sometimes I want to shake them and ask them why they don't care. lol

I was reading the rebel Amok...so proud to not be a part of the 2 party machine, but I have to ask....where will your 3rd or 4th party get you without the backing? I threaten to join with you all the time, Amok, in my endless letters (gawd where are the liberal spines?! *sigh*), but there is no true power in those 3rd or 5th or 7th parties....and that makes me sad. So I support a party I only half believe in hoping they can do something, anything.... this time or next time......aaahhhhh, politics. lol

Originally posted by Amuk
Most Americans are too lazy and apathetic to get out from in front of their plasma screen TV with the 600 channels to go VOTE.

Do you really think that a group of people that cant be bothered to cast a ballot are going to go nose to nose with a Abrams Battle Tank?

On the other hand, a small, determined group would have an easier time of taking over the country if the population remains apathetic.

If the government undergoes a coup, the corporations may decide that it's best if we keep the shops open for business, and direct the media to put a happy face on a succesful insurrection.

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
But if you cast your vote for a third party candidate then you are, in essence, throwing away your vote in a two party system.

This is the greatest lie perpetrated by the two party system.

You say you didn't vote for Bush so in a manner wasn't you and everyone Else's vote who didn't vote for Bush also a wasted vote? Would it have been any MORE wasted voting for a candidate that you REALLY believed in that lost also?

I have MANY posts on this subject and am too weak from a recent surgery to go repeat my arguments against this idea now but to sum it up I say a vote for either of the big two is the wasted vote because you have just guaranteed NOTHING will change.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by maidenwolf
I was reading the rebel Amok...so proud to not be a part of the 2 party machine, but I have to ask....where will your 3rd or 4th party get you without the backing? I threaten to join with you all the time, Amok, in my endless letters (gawd where are the liberal spines?! *sigh*), but there is no true power in those 3rd or 5th or 7th parties....and that makes me sad. So I support a party I only half believe in hoping they can do something, anything.... this time or next time......aaahhhhh, politics. lol

If EVERYONE that felt the same as you didnt buy into the "wasted vote" lie and DID back their party of choice they WOULD have power.

Till then I will keep on tilting at windmills

An American revolution is not possible right now.
A violent revolution is not possible because the people do not own weapons of comparative power to the weapons owned by the government, as was the case when the 1st revolution took place.
A peaceful revolution is not possible because the people are satisfied and complacent, if not litterally drugged and brainwashed. Also, peaceful values are not a part of american culture; american culture is all about "my" rights to the exclusion of everyone else's.
The best hope for an "american revolution" is for it to come from the outside, the same kind of "revolution" that americans have done in Iraq.

well, if you dont vote then dont complain thats my opinion. the only thing that IMO would incite a revolution would be bush attempting to overstay his term in office.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
well, if you dont vote then dont complain thats my opinion.

Voting won't change the warmongering. There is no difference in your political parties in their support for war. In this situation, you have no choice. There is in your country a perverse notion of national interest, and this is what is implicitly and explicitly defended by all the parties. The best forms of political expression under fascist regimes are through art forms and, yes, "terrorism". You wouldn't be the first fascist country with a multiparty system.

Originally posted by StarBreather

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
well, if you dont vote then dont complain thats my opinion.

Voting won't change the warmongering. There is no difference in your political parties in their support for war.

BS.

The Libertarians do not support war against ANY country except in self defense.

www.lp.org...


Not only that but our policies of non-interference in other countries affairs would not have lead us to 9-11 or pretty much all of our foreign problems we have today.

The problem is that the country has been lead to believe that they have only two choices, both of which are almost identical. This idea has been sold to us much like any other product, by a very slick ad campaign.

Originally posted by Amuk
BS.

The Libertarians do not support war against ANY country except in self defense.

Whereas the libertarian positions are very commendable, they are a lunatic fringe party. The US (like many other western democracies) have degenerated into a single majority "party of the center". All other discourse is blocked by the media and people pay no attention, since it seems to make no sense and be unrelated to their lives. In practical terms, the great majority of your population does knowingly support the war.

Not only that but our policies of non-interference in other countries affairs would not have lead us to 9-11 or pretty much all of our foreign problems we have today.

What non-interference?

1950 - Korean War
1953 - Removal of prime minister Mossadegh in Iran.
1959 - Support for deposed dictator Battista in Cuba.
1963 - Assassination of Qassim, president of Iraq.
1961 - Abortive invasion of Cuba.
1961 - Assassination of president Trujillo, Dominican Republic.
1964 - Overthrow of Goulart, president of Brazil.
1965 - Collaboration with Suharto, denunciation of suspected communists, Indonesia.
1967 - Support for Israel in the 6 day war.
1975 - Support for Indonesian invasion and massacres of East Timor.
1979 - Support for the Contras in Nicaragua.
1980s - Iran-Iraq war: sales of weapons to both sides.
1982 - Support for Israeli destabilization of Lebanon.
1989 - American invasion of Panama. Burnt-earth policy.
1990 - Intervention in electoral process in Bulgaria.
1991 - Intervention in electoral process in Albania.
1991 - Gulf war. Invasion of Iraq until now. Economic blockade until 2003.
1993 - Occupation of Haiti.
1998 - Bombings in Afghanistan and Sudan.
2001 - Invasion of Afghanistan.
2002 - Failed coup against Chavez, president of Venezuela.

As you can see, the US are getting increasingly more dangerous and militarily capable. All these wars are what your tax dollars are paying.

Originally posted by StarBreather

Not only that but our policies of non-interference in other countries affairs would not have lead us to 9-11 or pretty much all of our foreign problems we have today.

What non-interference?

1950 - Korean War
1953 - Removal of prime minister Mossadegh in Iran.
1959 - Support for deposed dictator Battista in Cuba.
1963 - Assassination of Qassim, president of Iraq.
1961 - Abortive invasion of Cuba.
1961 - Assassination of president Trujillo, Dominican Republic.
1964 - Overthrow of Goulart, president of Brazil.
1965 - Collaboration with Suharto, denunciation of suspected communists, Indonesia.
1967 - Support for Israel in the 6 day war.
1975 - Support for Indonesian invasion and massacres of East Timor.
1979 - Support for the Contras in Nicaragua.
1980s - Iran-Iraq war: sales of weapons to both sides.
1982 - Support for Israeli destabilization of Lebanon.
1989 - American invasion of Panama. Burnt-earth policy.
1990 - Intervention in electoral process in Bulgaria.
1991 - Intervention in electoral process in Albania.
1991 - Gulf war. Invasion of Iraq until now. Economic blockade until 2003.
1993 - Occupation of Haiti.
1998 - Bombings in Afghanistan and Sudan.
2001 - Invasion of Afghanistan.
2002 - Failed coup against Chavez, president of Venezuela.

As you can see, the US are getting increasingly more dangerous and militarily capable. All these wars are what your tax dollars are paying.

I was talking about the Libertarian Partys policy of non-involvement. Not only would we have not fought any of those except maybe Afghanistan (with us in power 9-11 would not have happened so their would not have been a reason) its doubtful we would have fought most of the other wars we have been in either.

We are hardly the "lunitic fringe", we are the third largest party in America and growing larger every year. In the election we had on this board we claimed a healthy third at around 20% if I remember correctly.

I find it kind of odd that you call us comendable yet in the same sentence call us lunitics. Its strange that you would call the party that is against pretty much everything you claim to hate about us lunitics. Have you ever been to our web site? Do you know ANYTHING about us other then the antics of some of our more "colorful" members? This "lunitic" image which you seem to have bought into with no problem is a result of the media you claim to distrust, picking and choosing those of us it gives air time to.

[edit on 15-7-2005 by Amuk]

Amok is right, the libertarians are a lot bigger than many people think.

Here in washington state we've been having issues with our primary system. You will not find an article about it without mention of Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians.

seattlepi.nwsource.com...

It was a solid victory for the state Republican, Democratic and Libertarian parties, which sued to overturn the Top Two. U.S. District Judge Thomas Zilly said his invalidation of the law means the state reverts to the Montana-style primary, sometimes called the "pick-a-party primary," that Washingtonians first used last year.

Well, I've always advocated a non-violent revolution & here are some fairly recent signs that it can & is being done without violence.

Joe Banister:
He Challenged The Income Tax
And Withholding Laws -- And He Won

Make no mistake: Joe Banister was indicted specifically because he took overt and very public actions that directly challenged the income tax and withholding laws.
In October of 2000, Joe Banister spoke to the employees of CENCAL, a company founded and controlled by Al Thompson. Banister told Thompson's workers that there was no legal authority that established that ordinary Americans, such as them, had to pay federal income taxes on the wages they made at CENCAL. During the meeting, Banister presented sufficient documentary evidence in support of his conclusions. Beginning in July of 2000, Thompson had stopped withholding the taxes from the compensation paid to the employees of CENCAL.
---------------------------
The government convinced a grand jury to indict Banister, setting the stage for a jury trial to determine whether Banister violated certain laws governing conspiracy and aiding and assisting in the filing of false tax returns. The government did not allow Banister to appear or present any exculpatory evidence to the grand jury.
----------------------------
He was acquitted in large part because the government chose not to confront or attempt to rebut Banister's plain assertions that there is NO law that requires most Americans to pay a tax on their wages and that most companies are NOT required to withhold taxes on wages and turn it over to the IRS.

The full article can be seen at the We The People Foundation.
As our rights & liberties have been slowly taken away, as the Constitution had been violoated bit by bit over the decades, I can see some positive action working against the crooks in government...The crooks who have let greedy corps & banks buy their loyalties over generations of time. As these crooks have been degrading us little by little, bit by bit, the best way to keep them from continuously authorizing officially sanctioned theft from us is by the same method--Little by little, bit by bit. This I believe is the best way to change things.

In this day of modern technology, the common people, for the first time in known history, have been able to foment some change for the better, without resorting to the only methods our ancestors had...Direct violence. So I still hope to see a revolution happen...but without the violence that we see too much of on a daily basis. Perhaps we can learn from the mistakes of history after all...

In a related matter:

"NO."

U.S. Court Of Appeals Soundly Rejects IRS
Plea To Soften Ruling In Schulz v IRS
On January 29, 2005, we reported under the headline, "Dramatic Development", that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit had issued a decision in Schulz v. IRS. The Court held that taxpayers cannot be compelled by the IRS to turn over personal and private property to the IRS, absent a federal court order.

In our January report, we quoted from the decision,
“...absent an effort to seek enforcement through a federal court, IRS summonses apply no force to taxpayers, and no consequence whatever can befall a taxpayer who refuses, ignores, or otherwise does not comply with an IRS summons until that summons is backed by a federal court order…[a taxpayer] cannot be held in contempt, arrested, detained, or otherwise punished for refusing to comply with the original IRS summons, no matter the taxpayer's reasons, or lack of reasons for so refusing.”

The full article is...You guessed it...At the We The People Foundation.
Again, evidence that The People of These United States actually are beginning to take notice & stand up without the need to resort to violence. I see some small ray of hope for us after all. It's still going to be a long, hard journey, but that's how we got here in the first place...Through a long, hard path of ignorance.

I think the next step would be to get cases like this out into full public view, instead of being relegated to "back-page news". Now if only someone had the resources & motivation to get the major media networks to cover stories like this...

[edit on 17-7-2005 by MidnightDStroyer]

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
But if you cast your vote for a third party candidate then you are, in essence, throwing away your vote in a two party system.

This is the greatest lie perpetrated by the two party system.

You say you didn't vote for Bush so in a manner wasn't you and everyone Else's vote who didn't vote for Bush also a wasted vote? Would it have been any MORE wasted voting for a candidate that you REALLY believed in that lost also?

I have MANY posts on this subject and am too weak from a recent surgery to go repeat my arguments against this idea now but to sum it up I say a vote for either of the big two is the wasted vote because you have just guaranteed NOTHING will change.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Amuk]

ok, then how about this for an answer? I don't believe there are any other politcal parties that best fit my immediate needs so I voted for the Democratic nominee. If another party comes along that fields a candidate worthy of my vote then I will vote for them. I have my eye on a couple candidates for 2008, but they are still affiliated with the Democratic Party. I think that if a popular Democrat suddenly decided to run under their own party it might change the face of American politics. But that is a risky endeavor.

Okay, here's a thought of a step to take before we try to formulate some new parties:

here are your US Senators

Email them with some complaints if you like.

Also, think if I can start a webpage where we can get all of our friends and people here to sign a pledge of some sort to the effect that we will not stand for such corruption of our constitution, would you people actually sign it?

I'm thinking maybe we malcontents can sign this and inevitably when we get blown off start a party of our own.

Come on, I think most of us here are generation X or Y, we're always overlooked by our government. We supply all the money into social security and the bulk of taxes and where does it go? As far from us as possible and into the pockets of old farts with oil companies and banks.

Let's try a revolution from the inside. Would anybody here be willing to do that? Try and change the existing parties and then resolve to form our own?

Of course, if that don't work, off with their heads!

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
But if you cast your vote for a third party candidate then you are, in essence, throwing away your vote in a two party system.

This is the greatest lie perpetrated by the two party system.

You say you didn't vote for Bush so in a manner wasn't you and everyone Else's vote who didn't vote for Bush also a wasted vote? Would it have been any MORE wasted voting for a candidate that you REALLY believed in that lost also?

I have MANY posts on this subject and am too weak from a recent surgery to go repeat my arguments against this idea now but to sum it up I say a vote for either of the big two is the wasted vote because you have just guaranteed NOTHING will change.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Amuk]

The wasted vote thing read like this:


you are having a contest for apples and oranges. It's always apples or oranges. Sure, there are other fruits out there, but your contest is only for these two. People may not like it, but their limited bbrain power allows them only to choose between the two.

But wait, you clever fiend, you vote for pears!

Too bad that vote will be discounted as meaningless ONLY BECAUSE the rest of the brain dead sheep think they must vote for apples or oranges. As long as the majority votes using that syetm, your pear vote means nothing.

So, yeah, until a major 3rd party emerges so called 3rd party voting is a waste.

But I have to admit, who really cares? Kerry and Bush were "frat" brothers so we're basically trapped in a one party system. Clinton, touted as the anithesis of Bush, laid very neeatly the foundations for today's atrocities. So tell me, is there any reaon to truly believe in our government?

We need a unified third party!

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Do you think that a second revolution in America is possible.

Nope don't think it will happen, the government is smarter then we are, it's more educated on how our minds work then the masses are, the masses lead with blind faith, but all their trust in major media networks, is unaware of operation mockingbird, the don't want to believe their government is capable of decieving them, they rally behind patriotism and support the government's cause. there are many things the government does to keep the people from thinking for themselves. A war will never break out here in this country again, the government's military projects and defense technology far superseeds anything that is legal for a civilian to use. Taking up arms just isn't enough in this day in age. They just invented a laser beam that they use on protester's, it burns the skin to the point where it's unbearable and makes them stop doing whatever they are doing.
The government has far more control over us then they we want to believe. So we keep sleeping and following in blind faith, depspite all the facts that we've chosen to ignore over time. Because that would mean we would 'have' to do something, and america is far too lazy to do anything these days, they gotta stop at the drive through after work and sit on the couch to catch up on the latest headlines on the sensationalistic networks we call fair and balanced, and just trust what they have to say.