Jack the Ripper really Masonic Ritual Murders!?

Originally posted by pignut

I have yet to encounter a Grand Lodge that has reduced the three errant Fellowcraft to exclusive "Ruffian" status....

The UGLE is one Grand Lodge that omits the names but i think that they are still found in Scottish rituals

Say it isn't so! I know they took out the penalties, but why remove the name of the three murderers??? There is no significance in telling a candidate that the three were presumed brothers. And what do the ruffians call each other in the degree?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by pignut

I have yet to encounter a Grand Lodge that has reduced the three errant Fellowcraft to exclusive "Ruffian" status....

The UGLE is one Grand Lodge that omits the names but i think that they are still found in Scottish rituals

Say it isn't so! I know they took out the penalties, but why remove the name of the three murderers???

The names were removed from the ritual two hundred years ago I don’t know why. It has probably got something to do with the union of the Ancients and the Moderns.

...There is no significance in telling a candidate that the three were presumed brothers.

They were fellowcrafts that all mealy three of fifteen conspirators.

And what do the ruffians call each other in the degree?

They don’t speak, the episode is not enacted it is just described, during which the murder is metaphorically preformed by the two Wardens and the Worshipful Master.

But then you know this!



[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

There's a whole lotta BS in this thread but there's enough truth to make one wonder of some of you fine brothers took the same oaths I took. Some of this discussion really has no business in an open forum. While granted some of the things being discussed are openly found on the internet and in other sources each of us are behooved to keep our mouth shut and to neither confirm or deny. Perhaps some of us need to revist our very own degree work before discussing such things in such an open forum.

Originally posted by mrfixit
There's a whole lotta BS in this thread but there's enough truth to make one wonder of some of you fine brothers took the same oaths I took.

Who are you calling brother, I have taken no oaths? So far I don’t think that I have betrayed any Masonic 'secret'? I strongly sympathise with the order however and I am not one of those anti-masons.

Some of this discussion really has no business in an open forum. ….. each of us are behooved to keep our mouth shut and to neither confirm or deny.

As I understood it the secrets of freemasonry consisted only in the modes of recognition the rest is just ‘private’. The rituals are only for freemasons to see and experience but are not for public viewing. This doesn’t forbid any discussion of them, there may books in the public domain that do just that. Perhaps masons in different constitutions interpret there oaths to have different implications.

Perhaps some of us need to revist our very own degree work before discussing such things in such an open forum.

According to the first degree obligation the candidate swears to ‘hele, conceal and never to reveal any of the secrets or mysteries of or belonging to Ancient Freemasonry…’ (Oxford Ritual) so what exactly are these ‘secrets’ and ‘mysteries’? It would be up to the diferent constitutions to determine exactly what theas terms mean and so how open fremasonry is going to be.





[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

HAHA I don't believe I mentioned any names Pignut and if the shoe doesn't fit then don't put it on, pretty simple.

On a different note if something shouldn't be viewed publicly then doesn't it seem logical that perhaps it shouldn't be discussed openly also?

A secret can be anything conveyed to you as such.


Peace

[edit on 26-4-2005 by mrfixit]

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
for they are a significant part of each Master Mason's brief moment as Hiram.

Does this mean that part of the MM ritual is to be ritually betrayed and mock murdered by people pretending to be those three?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Does this mean that part of the MM ritual is to be ritually betrayed and mock murdered by people pretending to be those three?

Is but a Petition for the Degrees of Freemasonry away...

It is alarming to hear of the truncation of the Second Section, in my Grand Lodge, and more specifically, my Lodge, it is considered a crucial event in a Candidates final step through the Blue Lodge (as a Candidate, there certainly is more out there). Our Lodge utilizes a "Degree Team," members of the lodge who are well versed in the Second Section (and all of the Ritual and Lectures), the participants are bedecked in costume befitting their role, and the events are quite realistic. I guess this is further proof of Freemasonry being less than the centralized world threat some mistakenly think it to be.

Woe Is Me Monkeys, not just heard from the cliffs of the rocks anymore...

Originally posted by mrfixit

....if something shouldn't be viewed publicly then doesn't it seem logical that perhaps it shouldn't be discussed openly also?

So why are you a member of a public forum that is given to discuss such matters?









[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by Nygdan
Does this mean that part of the MM ritual is to be ritually betrayed and mock murdered by people pretending to be those three?

Is but a Petition for the Degrees of Freemasonry away...

It is alarming to hear of the truncation of the Second Section, in my Grand Lodge, and more specifically, my Lodge, it is considered a crucial event in a Candidates final step through the Blue Lodge (as a Candidate, there certainly is more out there). Our Lodge utilizes a "Degree Team," members of the lodge who are well versed in the Second Section (and all of the Ritual and Lectures), the participants are bedecked in costume befitting their role, and the events are quite realistic. I guess this is further proof of Freemasonry being less than the centralized world threat some mistakenly think it to be.

Woe Is Me Monkeys, not just heard from the cliffs of the rocks anymore...

I have hared this of American rituals that thy tend to be more theatrical than in the UK. A part of masonic ritual taking the form of a short play. Lodge members Members sometimes wear costumes and greasepaint.

I know the 'Shriners' do




[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

Originally posted by mrfixit
There's a whole lotta BS in this thread but there's enough truth to make one wonder of some of you fine brothers took the same oaths I took. Some of this discussion really has no business in an open forum. While granted some of the things being discussed are openly found on the internet and in other sources each of us are behooved to keep our mouth shut and to neither confirm or deny. Perhaps some of us need to revist our very own degree work before discussing such things in such an open forum.

Brother, relax. Maybe you are right, I think different jurisdictions have different requirements as to what is to be kept secret and what is not. In california, the legend of the murder of the Grand Master is not considered secret. What IS secret is the language used suring the third degree. Discussing anything regarding the 3rd degree as it is performed in England is not as sensitive as you may think. If you truly believe we should not be discussing this, then we cann stop. I for one will no longer discuss this in open forum. But you do not need to be so insulting in asking us to stop.

Suffice it to say that the 3rd degree is not merely being symbolically acosted and murdered. I can't even begin to describe how much meaning and symbolism is conveyed through one simple re-enactment of masonic legend. It's enough to make your head explode.


[edit on 26-4-2005 by sebatwerk]

double post....... ooops [see below]

[edit on 26-4-2005 by mrfixit]

Originally posted by pignut
So why are you a member of a public forum that is given to discuss such matters?
[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

Perhaps I came here for further enlightenment in other subject matters and just happened into this forum. In the end it changes nothing, we are both here and in the midst of a very trivial disagreement HAHA.

Peace

Originally posted by sebatwerk

............. But you do not need to be so insulting in asking us to stop.
[edit on 26-4-2005 by sebatwerk]

I am truly sorry that you are offended as it was not meant to be offensive or insulting.

Under the English constitution the only secrets I have promised to keep are the modes of recognition, and I suspect most jurisdictions are the same.

I don't really like to bandy ritual about as it is private, but there are times when it is appropriate to give selected quotes from the ritual, to demonstrate what FM teaches etc. It's foolish to pretend that ritual isn't posted on the internet, ritual books are available from on-line bookshops etc so it's really not that hard to come by the text of our ceremonies.

The purpose of my presence on ATS is to demonstrate that freemasonry is not the wicked organisation some people have painted it to be, and I recognise I'm going to have to prove that by posting some ritual from time to time. To be honest, probably the same little snippets over and over again

I would be a little more circumspect discussing context however, as the main reason why we don't discuss ritual is that the knowledge aforethought may spoil a future masonic experience for someone.

And, yes, there are quite a few differences between ritual in the US and the UK. But the core message is the same.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Under the English constitution the only secrets I have promised to keep are the modes of recognition, and I suspect most jurisdictions are the same.

I don't really like to bandy ritual about as it is private, but there are times when it is appropriate to give selected quotes from the ritual, to demonstrate what FM teaches etc. It's foolish to pretend that ritual isn't posted on the internet, ritual books are available from on-line bookshops etc so it's really not that hard to come by the text of our ceremonies.

Trinityman, there is a reason why ritual text is only passed down to us by mouth or, in some cases, as cypher-text. Ritual text IS a masonic secret and we should not be posting or discussing it simply because it already exists elsewhere on the internet. If non-masons are discussing SPECIFICS of masonic ritual, we would be best off leaving it alone and not getting involved. We took an oath to keep secret masonic modes of recognition and masonic rituals, therefore we should discuss neither.

Originally posted by mrfixit

Originally posted by pignut
So why are you a member of a public forum that is given to discuss such matters?
[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

Perhaps I came here for further enlightenment in other subject matters and just happened into this forum. In the end it changes nothing, we are both here and in the midst of a very trivial disagreement HAHA.

Peace

Freemasonry is not a ‘secret society’ but as ‘society with secrets’ This is the view of the UGLE at least.

Intheir pamphlet ‘What is Freemasonry’ they describe secrecy in the following manner

The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with its traditional modes of recognition. It is not a secret society, since all members are free to acknowledge their membership and will do so in response to enquiries for respectable reasons. Its constitutions and rules are available to the public. There is no secret about any of its aims and principles. Like many other societies, it regards some of its internal affairs as private matters for its members.

So the rituals are private, freemasons may reveal as much as they whish. Other constitutions no doubt have different guidelines for there members, but in England and Wales the position is as stated.


However you are right the matter is a trivial one, I really should not allow my self to be bated in this way.







[edit on 26-4-2005 by pignut]

This theory makes sense in a way... but something's wrong. These 5 womens were murdered in an horrific way, not just by throat-cutting or strangulation but the murders were also involving strange mutilations and disembowelment, so if it was simply a matter of killing a few prostitutes in order to hide a State secret, why would Freemasons go as far as murdering womens into such horrible fashions???

I'd rather think this (of these) killer (s) were rather of the same bunch of deranged sociopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, who had developed some strange rituals and logic behind their murders.These rituals were serving as symbolism linking murder of their own demented theories and paranoias. Because there are no rational motivation behind killing people gratuitously, their acts of murder had to take some stong symbolism with their frustrations, fears or resentments towards particular categories of people. THis is why the prostitutes murdered by the Ripper had their sexual organs mutilated

Whoever Jack the Ripper was (no matter if he was an individual or group, or a secret society or not), he was the product of the puritanist culture, which was strongly based on deeply misogynistic and aristocratic values.

[edit on 26/4/05 by Echtelion]

Originally posted by pignut
So the rituals are private, freemasons may reveal as much as they whish. Other constitutions no doubt have different guidelines for there members, but in England and Wales the position is as stated.

However you are right the matter is a trivial one, I really should not allow my self to be bated in this way.

Regardless, our rituals are NOBODY'S business but our own. I believe that THAT is why we should keep them private. For that simple reason. If someone reallly wants to know about Freemasonry's ritual, they can go ahead and look on the internet or whatever, but I sure as heck am not going to help them.

Originally posted by Echtelion
I'd rather think this (of these) killer (s) were rather of the same bunch of deranged sociopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, who had developed some strange rituals and logic behind their murders.These rituals were serving as symbolism linking murder of their own demented theories and paranoias. Because there are no rational motivation behind killing people gratuitously, their acts of murder had to take some stong symbolism with their frustrations, fears or resentments towards particular categories of people. THis is why the prostitutes murdered by the Ripper had their sexual organs mutilated

Whoever Jack the Ripper was (no matter if he was an individual or group, or a secret society or not), he was the product of the puritanist culture, which was strongly based on deeply misogynistic and aristocratic values.

[edit on 26/4/05 by Echtelion]

My take on this is that society has changed with tech but we haven't grown otherwise. This wasn't even 100 years ago, have we evolved that far in so short a time? Not likely. As noted Dahmer et al.

Feeling like a nice Chianti. Just kidding.

The thing is that we NOW have the knowledge of the world at our fingertips. "Google, thy word is god".

Some things in history will change in our lifetime due to scholars having access to all the info on any given topic.

News at 11.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Trinityman, there is a reason why ritual text is only passed down to us by mouth or, in some cases, as cypher-text. Ritual text IS a masonic secret and we should not be posting or discussing it simply because it already exists elsewhere on the internet. If non-masons are discussing SPECIFICS of masonic ritual, we would be best off leaving it alone and not getting involved. We took an oath to keep secret masonic modes of recognition and masonic rituals, therefore we should discuss neither.

That paragraph speaks volumes all by itself! I don't believe it could be spoken or written any better.

Silence is golden!