The Conspiracy of Religious Disinformation

Originally posted by djohnsto77
But do these stories represent the Bible correctly? NO!

you assume that dan brown's book and version of christ's life is wrong. you also assume that the bible shows the 'real' jesus. the gospels matthew, mark, luke and john were writen by people that never met jesus. fact. dan brown, a man that never met jesus. fact. why are the authors of matthew, mark, luke and john more credible than dan brown...also a person that never met jesus.

the writings of matthew, mark, luke and john would have been stories that were passed down, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th hand and so on. we all know the concept of chinese whispers, and the infatuation for making mountains out of mole hills. the four gospels differ greatly in their accounts, almost like they each put their own spin on the jesus story. matthew seemed to show the jewish side of jesus more than anything else, which was in aid of the jewish wing of the early church. however, luke came from a completely different angle, coming from the roman view. he packed his book full of teachings and miracles to show that any civilised Roman of that time could trust in jesus.

dan brown will tell you his book belongs in the non-fiction. bible cheerleaders will also claim their book is non-fiction. many logical, intelligent people will tell you they both belong in the fiction section. dan brown's theories are far-fetched, but would also have been the norm for jesus 'the son of joseph' to do...marriage, children etc. you don't have to believe one or the other, or either dan brown is right or the bible is right. this is because the bible's interpretation of jesus is highly questionable, as is dan brown's. however, you clearly state that dan brown's interpretation of the bible and jesus is wrong, without question. one or the other does not have to be right...they can both be wrong and both be mere fiction stories for the public imagination.

Here's an exercise. Take the Bible, apply it, see how it works. Let me know if you run into any problems.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by saint4God]

i've ran in to a problem already, i picked up the book like you said and this came up... ''in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth'' oops...

[edit on 16-6-2005 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i've ran in to a problem already, i picked up the book like you said and this came up... ''in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth'' oops...

[edit on 16-6-2005 by shaunybaby]

What's the problem?

because i read it with an open mind, yet my mind is telling me it's not logical. i have a need for facts, evidence etc...but the bible rarely gives us any of that. they are not facts in the bible, they are people's opinions written down thousands of years ago and i cannot put my life on something like that. which is why you call it 'faith'. it's hope in something despite the lack of factual evidence.

it may be true that i cannot go back billions of years and witness the big bang, so again there is no proof that happened. however, there are many theories which coincide and try to explain it.

at the end of the day people will never agree, he's wrong, she's right etc... we can't even agree the world is round, oval, spherical... because some people still think the earth is flat. if we can't agree on something as simple as the earth being spherical then there is never going to be a general agreement on whether or not there is a god...

Originally posted by saint4God
Here's an exercise. Take the Bible, apply it, see how it works.

I don't understand why it is so hard for some Christians....just because you believe it to be true does not make it true. Others believe just as strongly as you do in their religion, they have the same convictions....why must Christian always push? Leave people alone and let others believe what they want. Telling someone to pick up a bible and they will understand is utterly ridiculous! I have read the bible, I have studied it....I am not a Christian, everyone doesn't see things they way you do. To me, the bible holds a lot of truths, but not in the way Christians view it.

Originally posted by saint4God
Here's an exercise. Take the Bible, apply it, see how it works. Let me know if you run into any problems.

I've never understood why people such as yourself can not grasp the fact that telling people such as shaunybaby, myself, and others of like mind is a futile act.

Having already displayed blatant disbelief in your Bible, you and yours still try to co-erce us into reading the Bible as if we are going to all of a sudden believe it to be true. This is like saying that if I co-erce you into reading one of Silver Ravenwolfs book it is going to all of a sudden make you believe that there is NOT a God of the Bible, but instead that Magic be the key to the everything (of which, we Pagans, do not advocate this action).

I swear, it's bad enough that people "witness" to me at my own home door (only to be run off at force, as they will NOT take a courteous "no"), but then come here and ALSO see constant witnessing (ie: wanting shaunybaby to read the Bible "and apply it" - to "apply" it dictates that it is accepted as truth, and countless other posts I've seen of blatant witnessing). You people just don't quit. Ugh

So, are you going to the bookstore yet?

Misfit

My point was, I think it's interesting to hear people claim the Bible is invalid without application. I apply it, I say it's valid. I'd like to hear about someone who applies it, or at least tries, and say why it's not valid. That's all. Validity, truth, application, and success. They all tie together. Use one to test the other.

Did I say magic was invalid and doesn't work? No, and intentionally so. Do you have to deny the existance of God to get magik to work? Again no. Please don't give me the diligence of posting all the threads where people have been encouraging others to try magik. I can say the outcome is not desirable, which is in contrast to the Bible. So perhaps I need to clarify. Not only does the Bible work, thereby illustrating that it is an accurate recording, but it works with an overall beneficial and positive result.



[edit on 16-6-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
My point was, I think it's interesting to hear people say the Bible is invalid without application. I apply it, I say it's valid. I'd like to hear about someone who applies it, or at least tries, and say why it's not valid. That's all. If you don't want this kind of response, then don't make claims that it does not work.

Did I say magic was invalid and doesn't work? No, and intentionally so. Do you have to deny the existance of God to get magic to work? Again no.


[edit on 16-6-2005 by saint4God]

I worked it for all the years but a couple short of becoming an adult.
Been there done that.
Chrsitian church, Christian school, Christian home. I ate drank and breathed Christianity and the Bible and all its doctrines.
I honestly believed that it was true.
But too many things simply did not justify towards other aspects of their own doctrine. Yet, when confronted to an elder with these thoughts, I was shunned, that I should not be questioning Christianity, the Bible, nor the doctrine. "Just have faith" that it is true.
That made it all worse to me. When a thought falicy is proposed within a doctrin, but gets no credence of thought, just "believe what we tell you" ....... pphhfftt.

So, in all, I can say it's invalid by having honestly lived it, until my own mind set into action and I quit "doing as I was told" by the doctrine that has been rewritten so many times that it all now is unbelievable.

I'm not going into the argumentation of its invalidity, as you of ALL people know it is all over this site. Moreso, not wasting my time attempting to rationallize to a Chrsitian the invalidities, when you will have no part of it other than to refute it, You are so chained by your own dogma that you will NEVER give any thought to an irrationality, illogical, or flawed concept presented to you.

Misfit

I do not deny the existence of God...but I do not think it is as the bible describes. I believe in an all powerful, creating, entity.....there are many, many people who have been Christian and then changed...there are many that were not and became Christian....so what's your point? It's a personal choice...as to "living" it...I do not a know a single Christian that doesn't spout off about sinning while they sin themselves, and I always get the same garbage about how no one is "sinless"...well, then if you know this, stop complaining about others sinning and just worry about your own sins. This is the biggest problem most have with Christians….they aren’t willing to just leave other people alone and let them live their lives their own way!

Originally posted by Misfit
Yet, when confronted to an elder with these thoughts, I was shunned, that I should not be questioning Christianity, the Bible, nor the doctrine. "Just have faith" that it is true.

This was the problem. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to not seek answers. In fact it's quite the opposite. James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." How did the elders justify not doing this?

Originally posted by Misfit
That made it all worse to me. When a thought falicy is proposed within a doctrin, but gets no credence of thought, just "believe what we tell you" ....... pphhfftt.

Per above, I think your fight was with the flaws of man, not God and the Bible.

Originally posted by Misfit
So, in all, I can say it's invalid by having honestly lived it, until my own mind set into action and I quit "doing as I was told" by the doctrine that has been rewritten so many times that it all now is unbelievable.

You invalidated the Bible because of what someone said? That doesn't make sense. The Bible didn't fail you, your counselors did.

Originally posted by Misfit
I'm not going into the argumentation of its invalidity, as you of ALL people know it is all over this site. Moreso, not wasting my time attempting to rationallize to a Chrsitian the invalidities, when you will have no part of it other than to refute it, You are so chained by your own dogma that you will NEVER give any thought to an irrationality, illogical, or flawed concept presented to you.

Misfit

Ah, that's not the case. My mind has been opened by several discussions here. I can't point to them all, but I'm sure if you're interested in looking there are plenty there.

Welcome back Misfit & LadyV, good to see you around again.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by LadyV
I do not a know a single Christian that doesn't spout off about sinning while they sin themselves,

I'm sorry you don't know me yet. Maybe over time and discussion you will.

Originally posted by LadyV
and I always get the same garbage about how no one is "sinless"...well, then if you know this, stop complaining about others sinning and just worry about your own sins.

*nods* That's what Jesus says, yes.

Originally posted by LadyV
This is the biggest problem most have with Christians….they aren’t willing to just leave other people alone and let them live their lives their own way!

Don't you feel like you're belaboring this point? We don't get THAT many new members everyday, yet it's on every thread we occupy.

saint4god... you're obviously never going to budge on your views, even if someone handed you something that proved your whole belief wrong. that's ignorance by ignoring evidence that is there, which you probably do now, just turning a blind eye so you can stay in your little bubble of christianity.

the theory of evolution is fact, yet they still call it 'theory of' to keep religious people happy. the pope and arch bishop of canterbury both accept evolution to be fact. people like saint4god, other christians etc, do not on the whole accept evolution. this is because if it's not in the bible it ain't true. don't live your life by a book telling you what to think and do...yeah right.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the theory of evolution is fact, yet they still call it 'theory of' to keep religious people happy.

Then by all means bring forth the evidence the university has failed to provide. It was within my major and directly involved with my concentration in Genetics. You want unanswered questions? Go to an 'evolution is a fact' person and ask them to provide data. Not speculation mind you, testable & provable data.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the pope and arch bishop of canterbury both accept evolution to be fact.

And this affects me...how? Contrary to popular belief, Christians don't 'jump onto the bandwagon' because it's what someone else thinks.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
people like saint4god, other christians etc, do not on the whole accept evolution.

People like me? Explain please.

If you knew me, you'd know that I don't really give a ratz arse about evolution to be true or untrue, God can work through natural law or miracle. I'm just not willing to accept something because Prof. Suchetysuch said so and has no numbers to back it up.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
this is because if it's not in the bible it ain't true.

Whatever dude . Believe what you wish.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
don't live your life by a book telling you what to think and do...yeah right.

The Book tells you how to think and why you should do...but that takes some spine-bending exercise to comprehend.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by saint4God]

I am an agnostic, but I find it interesting how people are offended by shows like Revelations and the Left Behind/DaVinchi Code books.

One of the complaints one hears from religious folks (not entirely invalid IMHO) is that representations of religious belief are absent from mainstream popular culture. These are, I think, attempts by the media industries to rectify this, but they get trashed because they don't meet the specific doctrinal standards of the various flavors of Christianity.

Folks, they are works of fiction intended for a Christian audience, they are not intended to "teach" us about Christianity any more than Star Wars is trying to "teach" us about space travel (I think I stole this analogy from someone a page or two back.)

And for anyone who thinks all portrayals of Christians in the mainstream media are negative, I recommend you watch the movie Magnolia. There is a character in there who is a Christian police officer (forget his name), one of the more memorable characters from the movie. He is not portrayed as some dumb boob, or a hypocrite, but as a profoundly decent man who struggles with right and wrong on the basis of a quite sincere religious faith. Towards the end of the movie you see how his faith impels him to deal compassionately with a person in great pain.

I have my own problems with extreme fundamentalists who want to enact religious law as civil law, but I don't think most Christians fall into that category at all. And I have no objection to the moral ideas taught by Jesus, even though I am not a Christian, I find Jesus's ethical teachings, and the sacrifice he finally made for them, quite compelling.

Not all of us who oppose the religious right do so out of some venal hatred for Christians, whatever you might wish to believe.

[edit on 6/16/05 by xmotex]

god couldnt have created evolution because in the bible it suggests when adam and eve were created they looked like you and i. if you look back over 150,000 years you'll see the evolution of man, different skull scructures etc, oh but wait the world is only 10,000 years old...or 6000. so no god does not work in a natural way like that. darwins theories, selective breeding etc were not accepted by religious people, which is why they make a big fuss about whether or not he accepted jesus on his death bed. btw he did not. however, the story of creation and evolution can not intertwine, it's one or the other. religion has to stop trying to make science fit in with its beliefs.

religion is ever changing, some or the major doctrines of the faith to begin with are now fading out. this is because it has to change with the times to suit the people of today and the science of today. many priests don't believe the virgin birth story. some bibles don't even mention 'virgin', mary is called 'young woman' instead. so which is it virgin birth or not? because if there's no virgin birth that makes jesus a sinner as we're suppsosed to inherit our sins etc. the reason why jesus was so pure is because of the virgin birth...lose that and you lose the entire plot. religion has become a joke.

It is not that religion has become a joke. What has become a joke is the way some people who consider themselves of a certain religion handle themselves and that religion.

You are making very broad, general swipes, and throwing all who are spiritual into the same basket. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I am of the Christian faith. However, I detest what many are doing to the "religion". There is a tremendous difference. Just as in politics there are different interpretations of things within each faith. I, for one, and many other true members of the Christian faith deplore the antics of the Falwell's, Robertson's, that have given our faith a truly bad name. These type of people are not really advancing the faith. They are advancing their ideas of the way things should be under the guise of GOD and "Christianity."

Many of these interpret the Bible much differently than I do. Just as Mr. X interprets things differently than I do. However, he and I have one thing in common. We both accept that there is a GOD, and Jesus Christ as our savior. We, like many, realize the Bible and the teachings of Jesus are open to interpretation by the individual.

Please don't lump us all in the same boat. It is a terrible thing to do. Kinda like lumping all "sinners" together. Get the drift?

Namaste' and GOD bless

im not lumping you all in the same boat. i state 'some' or 'many' or 'most'...never 'all'...

whats the big deal anyways...if youre right then life is for eternity, whether thats within your body or your soul. ive said personally id rather go to hell. there's going to be billions there anyways so its not like im gonna be alone. who cares? heaven or hell...im not bothered, send me to either one and ill put up with it. and dont go in to all the hell is really dark and so black and so scary, its like eternal pain...oooo scary...quick wheres my bible, wheres a priest, i need to recant, quick baptise me

...im not bothered, send me to either one and ill put up with it. and dont go in to all the hell is really dark and so black and so scary, its like eternal pain...oooo scary...quick wheres my bible, wheres a priest, i need to recant, quick baptise me

I would have never told you that hell is a dark scary place, or a hot one that will burn you forever. Your going thru your sort of hell now. As I am going through my sort.

When our physical existence ends and we enter the eternal light then we will be in heaven. Please no lumping!!

Namaste' and GOD bless

Originally posted by madmanacrosswaterNamaste' and GOD bless

I am curious, Madman, so a question if I may:

Are you Christian; Hindi or some mix?

Your "namaste" signoff is what makes me enquire.