POLITICS: New boycott of Israeli universities

The Association of University Teachers in Great Britain have passed two motions to boycott Israel's Haifa and Bar Ilan universities . The move has caused outrage among some academic staff, and in Israeli government and educational institutions. The AUT have defended the vote by comparing Israel, and some of its universities, to the South African apartheid system.



I am no fan of Israeli policy, but boycotting educational institutions seems to be a strange way of changing the current situation. Surely, a steady flow of students between borders can only be a good thing if we want to promote peace and understanding?

I hope that both Israeli and Palestinian authorities will take a path of reason in coming years. If they don't, I think that Israel will be faced with a growing number of boycotts.

This however, does not seem like a good way to improve the situation.

Outstanding news. Spooky to be sure. Not sure I agree with it, but this is newsworthy as this move will certainly get attention.

Yeah, reading the original article, I had the (for me) rare feeling that Israel has got a rough deal here.

I believe we need to stand up to Israel if we want to stop the atrocities in Palestine, but this action just doesn't seem like the way to do it.

The "liberals" has to find some way of "encouraging" countries to do the right thing without hurting those who could help things getting better.

I think Boycotts are better than acts of violence that all they do is to increase violence, as long as the point to be make is due in peaceful ways I think is ok.

I couldn't agree more Marg.

But there is peaceful protest that works, and peaceful protest that doesn't...

I am no fan of Israeli policy, but boycotting educational institutions seems to be a strange way of changing the current situation. Surely, a steady flow of students between borders can only be a good thing if we want to promote peace and understanding?

This is obviously not a monetary boycott. This suggests to me that the union believes that the Israelis are pushing their agenda on others through their educational institutions. This may or may not be the case. I sincerely doubt it, I think the curricula is probably pretty straight forward, but I am sure that the discussions that take place in them are lopsided.

Promoting peace and understanding is not the point of education. The point of education is all too often more of an indoctrination of a certain point of view, philosophy, or agenda. Look at a few American history books. You can't tell me that is an unbiased approach to the truth.

What I wonder, is if Israel is to fall out of favor with Western Europe to a point that they become contentious.

Then we may have problems.

Israeli scientists have also been known in the past for engaging into espionnage, see Lekem www.globalsecurity.org...

Most israelis are so indoctrinated they simply don't fit into the western tolerant academic milieu. Many of them are also very racist, a taboo in europe.

I am no fan of Israeli policy, but boycotting educational institutions seems to be a strange way of changing the current situation.

I think these people are using the most concrete way they can to show to the world that Israel -and its institutions... since a country is nothing without public institutions- has no legitimacy in its relations with Palestinians and the rest of Middle East. It's a good thing that they stand up, and excluding such important institutions as universities is one of the key steps towards convincing the Israeli government to stop the apartheid.

For those of you who still believe that racism and discrimination still exist in this country, and I do--you need to live in Isreal for a year, really get to know it. If your tired of theholier than thou attitude of the Republican bible thumpers in this country--go to Isreal. And yes, I have.

The Association of University Teachers in Great Britain (AUT) shows the world that how politics can corrupt education. While they boycott Bar-Ilan university for that university's connection to Ariel College (a West Bank Israeli educational facility) that allows for the education of Israeli Jews and Arab alike, they ignore the fact that BirZeit university is overrun by Fatah and Hamas - Two leading Palestinian terrorist organizations.
www.jmcc.org...
In fact, the even indicate on their website that they are affiliated with them.

That AUT is affiliated to Friends of Bir Zeit University and Trade Union Friends of Palestine.

see www.aut.org.uk...

Hypocritical? Malicious? reeking of political influence? I would say so!

Anyhow the backgroud to the decision and additional information can be found on the World Union of Jewish Students website.
www.wujs.org.il...

[edit on 24/4/05 by JudahMaccabbi]

It may be nice thatthere is a israeli university that enrolls arab students, but does it also accept their world view ? And if they do, what penalty do they incur in Israel ? teachers and professors are being harassed by the governement and zealots to accept their racist wolrdview. Israel is the last country on earth living in Apartheid. This is not only a little innjustice, or a minor tort to the indigenous palestinians, it's horrible, systematic prejudice. South Africa was being boycotted because of this, it's only normal Israel is being too.



[edit on 25-4-2005 by krotzkrotz]

Originally posted by krotzkrotz
It may be nice thatthere is a israeli university that enrolls arab students, but does it also accept their world view ? And if they do, what penalty do they incur in Israel ? teachers and professors are being harassed by the governement and zealots to accept their racist wolrdview. Israel is the last country on earth living in Apartheid. This is not only a little innjustice, or a minor tort to the indigenous palestinians, it's horrible, systematic prejudice. South Africa was being boycotted because of this, it's only normal Israel is being too.

Did the SA blacks bomb other SA citizens based on their religion or color. Did the SA blacks have a police force that did not operate against terrorists? Did SA blacks have a leadership who was relentlessly engaging in the systematic killing of other citizens of SA?
The two cases cannot be compared since:
1- Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, do not pay taxes to Israel and are not residents of Israel.
2- Palestinians have their own leadership who decided to go to war against Israel.
3- SA was not at war!
4- If you want to examine Apartheid then Apartheid exists in Egypt, Syria and Jordan where the Palestinian residents of those countries (born and raised) cannot own lands, vote, in some cases they are not entitled to hold jobs or an have education. This occurs not in Israel but in those countries mentioned. Blaming Israel for attrocities never commited is a game the Palestinians play for a very long time (see the Jenin 'massacre' as an example.
Again differentiate between Palestinian citizens of the Palestinians Authority (on the way to statehood) and Israeli citizens who are under a relentless campaign of terror.
I do not recall rockets falling on Johannesburg, or schoolbuses exploding in Cape Town or suicide bombers bomb the pubs or restaurants of Buffalo City.
Apartheid is a 'dirty word' used to demonize Israel for defending itself from the true 'evil' society developed by Yassir Arafat and the PLO.
I think that a boycott of Palestinian organizations is necessary to force Palestinians to mave away from a policy of terrorism.
It is pathetic that this cannot be understood.


[edit on 25-4-2005 by krotzkrotz]

The Guardian

Three members of the Association of University Teachers (AUT) have confirmed their resignation from the union in protest over the decision to launch an academic boycott of two Israeli universities.

More resignations are believed to be likely to follow over the plans to sever ties with Bar-Ilan and Haifa universities in Israel. Haifa is accused of restricting the academic freedom of those who are critical of the Israeli state, and Bar-Ilan of operating a college in Ariel, one of the disputed settlements.

They are certainly getting reactions on the vote. It shall be interesting to see how the case develops the next couple of weeks.

Worst case, it puts renewed focus on the Israel - Palestine problem. It's a good thing every time someone can do this without bloodshed.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Did the SA blacks bomb other SA citizens based on their religion or color. Did the SA blacks have a police force that did not operate against terrorists? Did SA blacks have a leadership who was relentlessly engaging in the systematic killing of other citizens of SA?

They had a resistance movement. It was called the ANC. The fact that their methods were not similar is irrelevant.

The two cases cannot be compared since:
1- Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, do not pay taxes to Israel and are not residents of Israel.

Don't be daft, of-course some of them do. Israel does not only have Jewish citizens.

2- Palestinians have their own leadership who decided to go to war against Israel.

Again, South Africa had a resistance movement. The fact that their methods were not exactly similar is irrelevant.

3- SA was not at war!

They were, a civil war where the government were fighting their own citizens, just like todays Israel.

4- If you want to examine Apartheid then Apartheid exists in Egypt, Syria and Jordan...
...Blaming Israel for attrocities never commited is a game the Palestinians play for a very long time (see the Jenin 'massacre' as an example.

That would be interesting if it were true. Can you provide trustworthy links to back up your claims?

I do not recall rockets falling on Johannesburg, or schoolbuses exploding in Cape Town or suicide bombers bomb the pubs or restaurants of Buffalo City.

And again... The fact that their methods were not exactly similar is irrelevant.

Apartheid is a 'dirty word' used to demonize Israel for defending itself from the true 'evil' society developed by Yassir Arafat and the PLO.
I think that a boycott of Palestinian organizations is necessary to force Palestinians to mave away from a policy of terrorism.
It is pathetic that this cannot be understood.

This is your opinion which you are entitled to, however narrow minded I might find it.

Originally posted by gekko

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Did the SA blacks bomb other SA citizens based on their religion or color. Did the SA blacks have a police force that did not operate against terrorists? Did SA blacks have a leadership who was relentlessly engaging in the systematic killing of other citizens of SA?

They had a resistance movement. It was called the ANC. The fact that their methods were not similar is irrelevant.

On the contrary, it is VERY relevant. When an enemy force is engaging in a relentless campaign of murder against another nationality rgardless of who it kills and targets civilians it is a threat to the world. For if that organization succeeds in its plight it will be repeated. War needs to be waged against soldiers or combatants not by targeting civilians. Therefore Israel needs to defend its civilians against the attrocities of the palestinians. And in doing so Israelis as well as Palestinians loose their freedom.

The two cases cannot be compared since:
1- Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, do not pay taxes to Israel and are not residents of Israel.

Don't be daft, of-course some of them do. Israel does not only have Jewish citizens.

Gekko you seem to exhibit a lack of knowledge about Israel and Palestine.
There are Israeli Arab citizens which comprise under 20% of Israel's population. These Arabs have all the rights of Jewish citzens. There are Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria and Egypt (mostly). The Palestinian Arabs in Israel are Israeli citizens and are included in the 20% I listed above. The Palestinian Arabs are different from Israeli Arabs. You can read up about this here:
arabsforisrael.com...

2- Palestinians have their own leadership who decided to go to war against Israel.

Again, South Africa had a resistance movement. The fact that their methods were not exactly similar is irrelevant.

Again the methods are VERY relevant. If the Palestinian Authority would have not resorted to a policy of terror then Israel and Palestine would have been in a constructive negotiations for peace. You cannot wage terrorism in parallel to negotiations or in parallel to peace talks. That is the Palestinian strategy.

3- SA was not at war!

They were, a civil war where the government were fighting their own citizens, just like todays Israel.

Again you expose your ignorance of Israeli/Palestinian demographics. There are two nations one with a Jewish Majority and an Arab minority called Israel and another with a Mulsim Arab majority and a Christian Arab minority called Palestine. Palestine is a nation in the making whose leadership seem to be causing more problems for their own populace than Israel ever did. Again Two separate nations. Arab Israelis would be insulted if you said they were Palestinians.

4- If you want to examine Apartheid then Apartheid exists in Egypt, Syria and Jordan...
...Blaming Israel for attrocities never commited is a game the Palestinians play for a very long time (see the Jenin 'massacre' as an example.

That would be interesting if it were true. Can you provide trustworthy links to back up your claims?

How about this:
www.afrol.com... www.jerusalemites.org...
web.amnesty.org...
Is that not Apartheid?

Did you know that Palestinians born in these countries (Some 2nd and 3rd generation) do not receive citizenship from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria or Jordan. They are not regible for basic rights in some cases. This is all because the Arab countries use the poor Palestinians as a tool to in their conflict against Israel. They keep the Palestinians in misery to gain world attention.

You want proof of the faked 'massacre' of Jenin:
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.answers.com...

I do not recall rockets falling on Johannesburg, or schoolbuses exploding in Cape Town or suicide bombers bomb the pubs or restaurants of Buffalo City.

And again... The fact that their methods were not exactly similar is irrelevant.

Think again - Are they really?

en.wikipedia.org...

Apartheid ... means "separation" or literally "aparthood" (or "apartness") ...

The word means to segregate/ separate. A certain wall comes to mind...

I can understand why Israel wants to fight those who attack them, I'm not that liberal Much of the Israeli policy harms innocent civilians however. That is the core of the international outrage. How the militant part of the population choose to fight is irrelevant. Don't - hurt - the - civilians!

You said that no Palestinians pay taxes and so forth. I am a Norwegian. Living in the UK doesn't make me less so. Call them Israeli Arabs, whatever... Perhaps there's not many Palestinians in Israel, but none???

The fact that you use UN sources to defend Israel is just to rich to comment on... Besides:

The UN Secretary General, Kofi Annan, said the report's aim of finding out exactly what happened in Jenin had been blocked by Israel's decision to refuse access to UN investigators.

I don't think your examples are particularly well suited to defend Israeli policy. I'm sure both sides lie and decieve the best they can.

One last thing to consider: At the start of this tread I stated my opinion that Israel had got a rough deal in this case. Your ramblings however, puts me in a situation where defending Israel becomes impossible.

IMHO you would have served the Israeli cause better by keeping quiet.

Originally posted by gekko
en.wikipedia.org...

Apartheid ... means "separation" or literally "aparthood" (or "apartness") ...

The word means to segregate/ separate. A certain wall comes to mind...

Oh you mean the Mexican/American wall? or the N/S Korean wall? or the Pakistani/Indian Wall? the Cyprus wall between Turkish and Greek Cyprus?
www.usborderpatrol.com...
www.qsl.net...
www.globalpolicy.org...
Just which one do you mean???
Does the US suffer from Mexican Terrorism? Do the Cyprus residents suffer from terrorism of one another? Does the Kashimir fence bring world outrage?

Much of the Israeli policy harms innocent civilians however. That is the core of the international outrage. How the militant part of the population choose to fight is irrelevant. Don't - hurt - the - civilians!

First you expose your bias by calling people who target civilians as a strategic mean for political gains MILITANTS instead of the proper term TERRORISTS.
Second, the fact that these terrorists hide within a civilian population, target civilians through the use of civilian structures and brainwash children to Martyrdom has EVERYTHING to do with this. THe fact that the Palestinian Authority engages in Terrorism and Israel is blamed for defending itself is shameful in itself. But then again the Europeans are so blinded by their economic dependancy on Arab Oil that they tend to neglect justice and balance in their foreign policy. This is therefore also expressed in other civilian organizations as mentioned in the posted News Articles. I provided other links in my previous post to prove the ridiculous bias that these organizations show.

You said that no Palestinians pay taxes and so forth. I am a Norwegian. Living in the UK doesn't make me less so. Call them Israeli Arabs, whatever... Perhaps there's not many Palestinians in Israel, but none???

You still do not understand. There is a difference between Israeli Arabs (Nazareth, Sahnin, Datet El Karmel, Rahat, Jaffo) and Palestinian Arabs (Nablus, Jenin, Qalqilya, Tul Karem). It is like Mexican-US citizens living in San-Diego and Mexicans living in Mexico city. Capish?

One last thing to consider: At the start of this tread I stated my opinion that Israel had got a rough deal in this case. Your ramblings however, puts me in a situation where defending Israel becomes impossible.

IMHO you would have served the Israeli cause better by keeping quiet.

I am really not relying on you to defend Israel - You exposed your bias when you labelled Palestinian Terrorists as MILITANTS - It is a sugar-coating that is deceitful.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Oh you mean the Mexican/American wall? or the N/S Korean wall? or the Pakistani/Indian Wall? the Cyprus wall between Turkish and Greek Cyprus?

I would like to think that you are playing stupid.

First you expose your bias by calling people who target civilians as a strategic mean for political gains MILITANTS instead of the proper term TERRORISTS.

My bias has never been hidden.

Second, the fact that these terrorists hide within a civilian population, target civilians through the use of civilian structures and brainwash children to Martyrdom has EVERYTHING to do with this. THe fact that the Palestinian Authority engages in Terrorism and Israel is blamed for defending itself is shameful in itself.

People in my family fought the nazis. The Nazis called them terrorists, this never made it true.

If you blow up civilians, you're a terrorist. If you fight an occupying force you're a militant. I was talking about militants, not terrorists, but I'm not certain you can or want to see the difference.

But then again the Europeans are so blinded by their economic dependancy on Arab Oil that they tend to neglect justice and balance in their foreign policy.

As you could see from my last post, I'm Norwegian. As we are the worlds third largest oil exporter, we are certainly not blinded by economic dependancy on Arab Oil. Nevertheless, the activism for the sake of the Palestinians are greater in Norway than most European countries.

So much for the oil theory.

You still do not understand. There is a difference between Israeli Arabs... ...Capish?

Capish? Is that an attempt at Mafia language? Intimidation suits you well. One could think you were in the Israeli government or something.

Anyway, you still claim that there are no Palestinian taxpayers in Israel? I'd say BS.

I am really not relying on you to defend Israel - You exposed your bias when you labelled Palestinian Terrorists as MILITANTS - It is a sugar-coating that is deceitful.

I have never hidden my bias, I even stated that I am no fan of Israeli policy in the original news article. I was just defending Israel in this one case, that's all. Its called fairness.

Would you like to clarify your bias?

Originally posted by gekko

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Oh you mean the Mexican/American wall? or the N/S Korean wall? or the Pakistani/Indian Wall? the Cyprus wall between Turkish and Greek Cyprus?

I would like to think that you are playing stupid.

I cannot understand what the difference is between the Pakistani/Indian wall and the Israeli/Palestinian wall. This wall comes to defend its citizens. Indians suffer to a much smaller extent from Pakistani/Islamic terror than Israel.
I think your lack of understanding of Israeli and Palestinian demographics are another contribution to your biased opinion.

Second, the fact that these terrorists hide within a civilian population, target civilians through the use of civilian structures and brainwash children to Martyrdom has EVERYTHING to do with this. THe fact that the Palestinian Authority engages in Terrorism and Israel is blamed for defending itself is shameful in itself.

People in my family fought the nazis. The Nazis called them terrorists, this never made it true.

Did people in your family blow up German children in schoolbuses? German women in cafes? Did they shoot German residential buildings. I highly doubt it.
The Nazis did target civilians - Therefore the Nazis were the true terrorists -I understand what you are trying to say - Every country labels its enemy in the harshest of terms and focuses on the other sides bad points. You see this everywhere - But you cannot avoid the fact that the Palestinian 'militants' as you like calling them engage in criminal actions of indisriminant murder of non-combatants as a policy. This is what differentiates between them and those freedom fighters from your family.

As you could see from my last post, I'm Norwegian. As we are the worlds third largest oil exporter, we are certainly not blinded by economic dependancy on Arab Oil. Nevertheless, the activism for the sake of the Palestinians are greater in Norway than most European countries.

So much for the oil theory.

I hang my head in shame!

Capish? Is that an attempt at Mafia language? Intimidation suits you well. One could think you were in the Israeli government or something.

Tsk! Tsk! Tsk! Bias again! That doesn't seem Norwegian of you (Well on second thought - Its VERY Norwegian!!)

Anyway, you still claim that there are no Palestinian taxpayers in Israel? I'd say BS.

Palestinians pay taxes to the Palestinian Auhority headed by the PLO. Not only do palestinians not pay taxes to Israel but the Palestinian authority is provided with tax refunds on VAT that Palestinians pay - Thanks to the OSLO process that refund was returned to Yassir Arafat's own private bank account. This was stopped when the hostilities broke out in 2000 - Again you are exposing some ignorance of the demographics of Israel and Palestine.

I am really not relying on you to defend Israel - You exposed your bias when you labelled Palestinian Terrorists as MILITANTS - It is a sugar-coating that is deceitful.

I have never hidden my bias, I even stated that I am no fan of Israeli policy in the original news article. I was just defending Israel in this one case, that's all. Its called fairness.

Would you like to clarify your bias?

Very nice of you to be fair.
I am biased against Islamic Fundamentalism, against people blowing themselves up amongst civilians because they where brainwashed into believing that they are doing god's bidding.
I am biased against european countries who nail Israel to the wall for defending its citizens by targeting those middlemen who actually are responsible for the direct aggressions against Israeli civilians. For European countries who cannot afford a single word of condemnation in official forums and action against the Palestinians for their NAZI attrocities of targeted murder of innocents while condemning Israel for building a defensive wall.
I am biased against organizations who boycott Israel but have are affiliated with a University run by terrorist organizations.

We are both going way off topic. I do see some of your points however.

Let's agree to disagree?

Peace.