Silver Bullet Cure for terrorism

For a numer of years, and of course ever so much more in this website, there has been conjecture and theory as to what can happen and what could happen in terms of a terrorist strike either here in America or abroad.

The fear factor hear in America has gone up to unprecedented levels where even I am looking at semi trucks suspiciously as well as shadey charachters. Which of course can lead to discrimination. But there is a more obvious way to be more effective and it doenst cost allot of money.

As an observing community we can produce a more definintive and localized result keeping our eyes and ears a little more open to the things going on around us. If a person can rob a bank and walk out and no one notices, or some one gets attacked and citizens just stand by waiting for the law to respond, then the terrorist and criminals have an advantage.
But if the average citizens eye takes little more care into unusual happenings around them, we could indeed catch more. We have to remember not to take average procedures for granted and to question things that are out of the ordinary. However, I would caution at calling local law enforcement on every minor detail until something appears to be panning in a wrong direction and seems to be leading toward action. Community solves these issues. If you just get in your car every day and go to work, and then return, your living in a transit bubble. Look at your community. Walk your neighborhood. Get involved, Know your neighbors, be a citizen, know what cars are normally around, all the little details that we overlook on a daily basis. You can make a change. The embodiment of United we Stand.

Yes, watch your neighbours, friends, anyone who looks suspicious. Does the granny over the road suddenly go to a different shop? How about that middle aged gentleman, he just bought a new van, what does he intend to use it for?

Does '1984' say anything?

I really don't think that the potential terrorists are that stupid that they would raise suspicions among the people before an attack.

I agree, if there were terrorists planning attacks in the states and were living in the country u can bet that they will act very normal and try to fit in, they will not be lone nuts that act very suspiciously. This may have been the case before 9/11 but now they must be aware that to get away with planning the attacks and then carrying them out etc they must raise no flags or arouse any kind of suspicion.

Unusual out of the way actions that involve all kinds of things normally not the trend should raise a flag. Being a part of community dosnt infer 1984. Use this as a litmus test. Would you be able to identify an intruder in something as simples as breaking into your neighbors car? And would you ask questions?

Its not being overly nosey, its being protectvie of your local community where you know it well, and you know the people. All of our communitys intertwine into a collective networlk that can be much more easily percieved then investingating law enforcement.

Peace

Heres a scenario HIFIGUY, you're in a McDonalds', a man walks in (eastern of course) he seems to be sweating profusely as he looks about, but is wearing a suit jacket and looks professional. You notice he is holding something in his hand. You have your kids with you. What are you going to do?

In this situation you have about four seconds to assess and respond. You will never reach the hostile in time so now you must, with deadly accuracy, hurl an object that will incapacitate the threat. However, you don't have an object to hurl. Three seconds are up - you notice he raises his hand and you attempt to flee the building, but your kid moves from your grasp and says, "Dad, wait I want the nugget happy meal," as the man detonates six sticks of Semtex hidden under his sport coat.

Unfortunately, terrorists are successful at carrying out such suicide attacks based on several factors. They are highly motivated, trained, and prepared for their action. The devices used in the past, such as Hydrogen Peroxide TATP, have been very affective at causing casualties within 50 meters. The palestinians training with HAMAS have indeed taken bomb creation to a new level as they spend much time doing it.

Also the man who detonated the device many times will have a remote detonator nearby. In other words if he chickens out or his device to detonate fails - his buddy across the street in the gas station can help send him to Allah along with everyone else in McD's. This is nothing new and the new craze of course is ambulances. Imagine an ambulance filled with a hundred pounds of explosive and parked right outside of a major shopping outlet. Israel has been very aggressive and successful in their hunt for explosive labs and curbing situations such as discussed, however we as Americans are not even in the same league - we are completely open.

Keeping your eyes open to what's happening around you is good advice but in order to actually stop a volatile situation you must take immediate action without thought of consequence. Lets say you had a knife on you and you are very good at throwing that knife. You would actually have to strike the man in his eye to stop him and there is no guarantee he will not still detonate the device even with a well placed shot with a .40cal round.

What if after blowing the guys head off he was just about to order a #6? Be prepared for a long stay at your local correctional facility.

The problem lay in the fact there is no training for American's. There are no instructional classes that teach eod disposal to the average citizen or threat assessment and target neutralization and there won't be. Our society is a response society. If you want to be ready for a McD's episode you better train yourself and arm yourself with the necessary tools to impede threat's. This will take years of training to pull a weapon and use it accurately within a four second spread - but it's worth it.

First rule fo thumb: Its difficult if not impossible to defend against a man who is willing to give his own life in exchange.

Regarding your Mcdonalds scenario...you have taken the first step in identifying a possible threat. Sweat, Item in hand, nervous, Id make a safe assumtion. Id yell bomb, and tell everyone to get to the floor. If I was wrong, well, we all live and the story makes the press. The outcome of the lesson yields that we can never be too cautious. ON THE OTHER HAND, had the bomb gone off, you could have possibly saved lives and the observation and the risk of humility would be worth the embarrassment of being wrong. Which is the lesser? Ill take a false call over safety if it means saving folks. You wont stop him or her with a gun. It has to be stopped in motion of before it ever gets to implementation. And thats what I mean about community. Watchfull eyes make nervous wrongdoers.

I dont think arming citizens is the answer, but I beleive that controls, and lessons can be learned from those that have experienced the mayhem that these types of threats present. Even with the tight controls that Israel had in place, the bombers still got through. People with dispositions about injuring others dont just run renegade alone. And when they do, you have Tim Mcveighs that send a postulate in thought about how did we not see this coming.

Explosive device composition needs to be controlled more and perhaps a little more information is needed upon purchase. Just like handguns. The local shops know what a normal purchase looks like and what an irregular one looks like. Its the personal level interaction in the community that I believe to be more effective. But before you look at the operation, one needs to look at the intent before action. And that where people can be caught in concept and in attempts to assemble an operation.

You cant walk like a dog, talk like a dog, and smell like a dog, and then be a cat. When you see the dog, and you know the dog is potentially dangerous, then its time to put an eye on him. They dont mysteriously appear with Semtex in a slicker with a detonator in their hand. When its gotten that far, someone wasnt paying attention.

Peace







[edit on 23-4-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Im sorry but you are all nutz.....
When was the last terroist attack on the U.S? 9-11.
So since that has happend you honestly believe that there could be a terroist living next door to you? Or that a semi trailer with no markings could be full of explosives?
I really do pitty how the american media has made people believe that "they" personaly could be attack by terroists.
Now if you lived in israel i could understand if you were scared to get on a bus. But seriously, go outside your house, look at the world around you. There are no terroists! You have nothing to fear from terroists! What you should fear is all of the unjustice that is happening to your fellow people in their day to day lives.

Remember the car caught with the explosives at the Canadian border?
World Trade Center original car bombing
September 11th
Tim Mcveigh and the tragedy he played a role in.

Thats enough for me in one life time. we really dont know how many things are caught before they become effective and Im sure that is kept confidential.

Your disposition is the one wanted that Law enforcement officers everywhere hope for you to enjoy for living in fear is not very fun. Paranoia will destroy you.

But it doenst hurt to be a little more cautious. It isnt just terrorism. Its a safer community from crime. Rape, Robbery, and all things considered detrimental to our family and friends. So even if there arent terrorists, we can still be a bit more cautious as the last time I checked, crime wasnt on the decline.

Peace

[edit on 24-4-2005 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 24-4-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Thats exactly right. Be cautious of crime, as it effects much more people than any terroism ever will.
I just wonder why there isnt a "War on Crime" that is being played in the media everyday.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Regarding your Mcdonalds scenario...you have taken the first step in identifying a possible threat. Sweat, Item in hand, nervous, Id make a safe assumtion. Id yell bomb, and tell everyone to get to the floor. If I was wrong, well, we all live and the story makes the press.

As soon as you yelled bomb - it would go off. So basically the only thing you'd accomplish is setting the device off quicker.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
I dont think arming citizens is the answer, but I beleive that controls, and lessons can be learned from those that have experienced the mayhem that these types of threats present. Even with the tight controls that Israel had in place, the bombers still got through. People with dispositions about injuring others dont just run renegade alone. And when they do, you have Tim Mcveighs that send a postulate in thought about how did we not see this coming.

When you have warehouse's building belt bombs - some are going to get through, however Israel has stopped thousands of premeditated attacks based on oriented action. Arming the citizens with knowledge is the key but as I already stated we are are a reactionary society.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Explosive device composition needs to be controlled more and perhaps a little more information is needed upon purchase. Just like handguns. The local shops know what a normal purchase looks like and what an irregular one looks like. Its the personal level interaction in the community that I believe to be more effective.

You think explosives would be purchased like in a movie - just go and buy it? LOL you can make glycerin in your tub. There would be no need to visit you local explosives store - thanks for the laugh. Personal interaction means nothing. Response means nothing. There is only immediate action on threat assessment - all else fails.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
They dont mysteriously appear with Semtex in a slicker with a detonator in their hand. When its gotten that far, someone wasnt paying attention.

Tell that to Israel and to our troops in Baghdad. Pay attention all you want. If a target is hard cased by a MBG (motivated bad guy) you are going to experience destruction and casulaties. Remember the marine barracks in Lebannon?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Peace

Not likely.

Shotgunning concepts doesnt help. I could what if until the cows came home.

If, if was a fifth, wed all be drunk. Let me pose a scenario:

1 lane of freeway. 100 cars in a row at 60 mph at 20 feet apart.
When you drive at 60, your moving at 88 feet per second. Thats roughly less then a half second to respond to a problem. Time is rush hour. You assume the following: 100 drivers awake. 100 drivers sober. 100 drivers paying attention.
400 tires that arent going to blow. 400 + spark plugs that are working correctly.
100 cars with that are purely working correcly. And, remember, in the event of a problem, you have less then a half second to respond.
What if a tire blows. What if someone runs out of gas. What if someone brakes while they are putting makup on? What if, what if, what if. Id never get in my car because what if I didnt make it home to take care of my family..

Would you drive your car in these conditions described? Probably not.
But we do every day. Because eash one of us is doing what we can to keep the highways safe and our cars in working order. Even with less then a half second to respond to a mishap. Somethings dont seem to work, but they just do.

So in thought, we can what if bombs and warehouses. We can what if until we are blue in the face. But were not. America is being effective, and America is a safer place then most. But we can turn up the dragnet a little with citizen input, and not fatalistic approaches as to why even bother.

Remember life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness? Well for a society that had loose controls on controlling terrorism, I think were doing pretty damm good. Here and abroad.

In the City of Tacoma, the 200,000 eyes of the citizens can assist the 600 dedicated police. The question is, what if, no one does anything. Thats where the problem is. Anyone can do nothing...

Peace

[edit on 24-4-2005 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 24-4-2005 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 24-4-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
1 lane of freeway. 100 cars in a row at 60 mph at 20 feet apart.
When you drive at 60, your moving at 88 feet per second. Thats roughly less then a half second to respond to a problem. Time is rush hour. You assume the following: 100 drivers awake. 100 drivers sober. 100 drivers paying attention.

The discussion was a viable terrorist situation - not nonsense.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Even with less then a half second to respond to a mishap. Somethings dont seem to work, but they just do.

So in thought, we can what if bombs and warehouses. We can what if until we are blue in the face. But were not. America is being effective, and America is a safer place then most. But we can turn up the dragnet a little with citizen input, and not fatalistic approaches as to why even bother.

Israel is a model not a concept. Effectiveness is defined by results - America is currently not experiencing terrorist attacks. To hope she does not AGAIN is wishful thinking the White House is attempting to dissuade. Our society (average citizen) is not prepared, nor trained to react to assessed threat levels.

Your solution and advice of "Keeping your eyes and ears open," is common sense, hardly a solution and assumes the average American a complete moron, never having seen 911. In the CT world there are things that work and things that don't, based on applied application and science - such as relative superiority.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Remember life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness? Well for a society that had loose controls on controlling terrorism, I think were doing pretty damm good. Here and abroad.

Based on what your wide array of statistical data and understanding of global terrorist operations? 911 was not pretty damn good nor will the next terorist assault be any better. Had you known a terrorist assault with planes had been forecast for years to the JCOS you'd probably shut your mouth.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
In the City of Tacoma, the 200,000 eyes of the citizens can assist the 600 dedicated police. The question is, what if, no one does anything. Thats where the problem is. Anyone can do nothing...

Tell that to the 8 million eyes of New York city. They did do something. They watched the WTC explode and collapse on loved ones up close and personal. This is the real world not one of, play patsy, and hope my brain is smart enough based on ZERO training and ZERO ability. If you can't run five miles pal you sure ain't gonna do it when you need to in a life and death situation - thats reality. CAN or CAN'T. The problem is people are doing nothing - simply because they don't know what the hell to do but look and listen and that is just not enough against a MBG intent on killing you to get everlasting bliss.

911 was a hole shot in history. A slam dunk tragedy.

I know what I do in the world. And I know what looks unusual. People everyday everywhere do routine jobs on a daily basis and then the weird unusal things start to happen.

The trick, is to keep a sharp eye, without turning a blind eye. Look a little more, and youll see a lot more. If you dont look, you wont find.

Theres always that guy on the team that says it cant be done. On my team, he gets cut.

Peace

HiFiGuy,

Do you want a serious way to reduce the danger that terrorists pose to you?

I have one but you may not like it so I am asking you first.

Cheers

BHR

vincere7 said: Arming the citizens with knowledge is the key but as I already stated we are are a reactionary society.

v7, I am with you. I am curious tho', what do you mean here by 'we'? Are you an American, living in America? I ask because I live in America and I wouldn't call myself reactionary. I think you were referring to how Isrealis have 'reacted' to suicide bombers by each becoming more aware. Are you saying that Americans would have to see some actual suicide bombers in their country before they would collectively figure out how to spot the bad guys?

HIFIGUY, in your original post, you said:

where even I am looking at semi trucks suspiciously as well as shadey charachters. Which of course can lead to discrimination.

What does this mean, "even I"? Why do you look at trucks with suspicion? Can you describe the last time you felt this and why? Was the driver (of this truck) of a particular religio-ethnic group? Did he have any markings on his truck of a political or religious nature?

So in thought, we can what if bombs and warehouses. We can what if until we are blue in the face. But were not. America is being effective, and America is a safer place then most. But we can turn up the dragnet a little with citizen input, and not fatalistic approaches as to why even bother.

I think you are referring to "what-if" discussions where we talk though various scenarios as may be faced by Americans. vincere7 has given us one. Assuming the described Mcdonald's bomber has a deadman-type switch in his hand, even a .40 round to the head won't matter. Once he infiltrates, it's over. Similarly, once that suicide-car drives close enough to you, such that you are in its blast radius, it's over.

As for "bombs and warehouses", I don't know quite what you mean, but you don't need warehouses to build bombs. vincere7 mentioned TCAP which is made from Acetone (paint thinner) and Hydrogen Peroxide. Yes, that stuff you put on your finger when you cut yourself. It's not hard to make TCAP. The pressure produced in dissipation is about 80% greater than pressures seen in the detonation of the same mass of TNT.

How successful do you think prohibition was in controlling bathtub gin?




[edit on 25-4-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
911 was a hole shot in history. A slam dunk tragedy.

I know what I do in the world. And I know what looks unusual. People everyday everywhere do routine jobs on a daily basis and then the weird unusal things start to happen.

The trick, is to keep a sharp eye, without turning a blind eye. Look a little more, and youll see a lot more. If you dont look, you wont find.

Theres always that guy on the team that says it cant be done. On my team, he gets cut.

Peace

"Terrorism" has been around in different manefestation through out history. They all have one thing in common. When you push and push a person or group long enough, eventually they will strike back using what ever means that they can.

This is not to say that what you are seeing today in the world, iraq for example, is terrorism. They are only doing what a patriot would do in the event of foreign occupier.

The solution? Stop pushing and repent, or at least admit that you are wrong. That is probably easier than killing off people who were not involved. Easier said than done.

[edit on 25-4-2005 by IComeWithASword]

Originally posted by Samiralfey
Yes, watch your neighbours, friends, anyone who looks suspicious. ....

I have to agree with you Samiralfey: by making us all over-suspicious, surely the terrorists have "won" - the very fear of terror has caused us all to modify our behaviour, made us untrusting of others and, I think, xenophobc in our outlook.

Indeed, it reminds me of the " First they came... "
poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984):

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I did not speak out
because I was not a communist.

When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out
because I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."

What price freedom?

That would be unpatriotic to speak out against your own government when they are obviously wrong. Blah, blah, blah.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
v7, I am with you. I am curious tho', what do you mean here by 'we'? Are you an American, living in America? I ask because I live in America and I wouldn't call myself reactionary. I think you were referring to how Isrealis have 'reacted' to suicide bombers by each becoming more aware. Are you saying that Americans would have to see some actual suicide bombers in their country before they would collectively figure out how to spot the bad guys?

Yes I'm an American born and bred. You might not call yourself reactionary but when gauging response to terrorism you are - just as our police are or any EMT's. Spotting a terrorist is like spotting a needle in a stack of needles. Repetition only causes one to adapt more quickly.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Assuming the described Mcdonald's bomber has a deadman-type switch in his hand, even a .40 round to the head won't matter. Once he infiltrates, it's over. Similarly, once that suicide-car drives close enough to you, such that you are in its blast radius, it's over.
As for "bombs and warehouses", I don't know quite what you mean, but you don't need warehouses to build bombs.

Yes thats the point exactly something HIFIGUY doesn't seem to grasp. He's living in this weird fantasy world called his brain where being on his team means yelling "bomb". As for the warehouse' yes there have actually been many production lines found by Mossad for making bombs - not your average bathtub.

You might not call yourself reactionary but when gauging response to terrorism you are

No, I'm not anymore. On 9/11, I was not really aware of the situation in America and so yes, on that day and in the weeks after, I was in a reactionary state. Since then, however, I have read more, changed my perspective, and learned what's really moving the world. Becoming enlightened about the areas of history that are usually shielded is akin to turning around and facing forward out the front of a car. All your life previously you had been viewing life out the rear-view window, reacting to things as they happen. When you turn around in the car and face forward, you are then able to be less reactionary because you can see things coming. I am prepared for your McDonald's suicide bomber, for example. I will not have a knee-jerk rection to that event.

Spotting a terrorist is like spotting a needle in a stack of needles. Repetition only causes one to adapt more quickly.

I couldn't agree more. I'm only theorizing as an amateur and I have never been in a country where the threat of suicide bombers exists, but I imagine it puts people on edge. I also guess that these people would become very good at sizing each other up in a second. I've noticed more of this in America. People tend to notice me in a crowd. When I feel a person's eyes on me, I'll make a point to look at them and smile or nod in a friendly way. When you look a person in the eyes and show them that you are not a threat, it has an amazing effect. I can instantly see people's body language relax when I do this. Is this the kind of thing you are talking about? I often wonder if other people do this.

Personally I wish the world was different. For me, it's hard to choose between 48 hours of nuclear war and 500 years of suicide bombers. Both sound like hell. But I guess that's the point the Buddha was making: Life is suffering. I think the best remedy is not to worry about death so much. That fear can be used to lead you just like an electric prod will move a cow. If you turn off the fear-switch in your head, you can see things a bit more clearly. The odds of being near a suicide bomber are very low unless you choose to live in a contested area of the planet like Isreal, West Bank, etc. The solution? Live elsewhere.

[RANT]
Once suicide bombers turn up in America, the selling out of our country will be complete. What point will there be in obeying politicians or military doofuses who can't keep us safe? The Mujas were created by the USA and Osama was mind-warped by our countries' professional mind-warpers. We are conditioned not to question one branch of Abraham's line (Jews from line of Isaac) but we are told to suspect the other part of that Abrahamic line (Arabs from line of Ishmael). In the end, it's all bulls- smoke and mirrors.

Screw Abraham and both his kids, I say. He didn't invent philosophical thought or plumbing or math or anything at all. Who the hell was he anyway? Some goat herder who happened to have the buddy-line to God? God bestest friend? Give me a break. That tired old message hasn't improved the world
[/RANT]