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St. Peter and "The Rock"

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posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:23 AM
And I tell you,
you are Peter,
and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
— Gospel of St. Matthew 16:18

Much debate has gone into this...
here are some interpretations ....

Anyone can add their thoughts on this...

posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 03:01 AM
Hello Helen,
A lot of people misunderstand this verse. Jesus was asking his disciples who they thought He was. Peter replies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus tells Peter that his insight is from the Holy Spirit and it is upon Peter's ANSWER, not Peter himself, that Christ would build His church. The term "this rock" was a kind of word play...the rock was the answer Peter gave not Peter himself. Jesus used this word play , perhaps as light levity 'cause Peters name means 'rock'.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by lapi7]

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 07:30 AM
Also Helen don't forget 1 Tim. 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." So it is also obvious from this verse (amoung many others) that Peter could never have been the one on whom the church was built!

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 08:48 AM
Now must of us may not be ready for this, but I'll post it anyway:

Proceed with caution
(and Consciousness):

Upon This Rock I Will Build My Church - by Amir Fatir

An excerpt:

The ancient scriptures were written in language rich in symbolism. The prophets were men and women who had graduated from mystery schools and were not allowed to teach the deepest wisdom to people who had not been initiated into the higher levels.

Jesus spoke in parables to even his closest disciples. On the rare occasion that he spoke plainly, it was a cause of excitement.

His disciples said unto him, Lo,
now speakest thou plainly, and
speakest no proverb.
- John - 16:29

The Quran is also replete with symbolism. Every verse of that book is called an "ayat," i.e., a sign.

Prophets were not allowed to speak openly to audiences comprised of uninitiated people. They therefore employed symbolic language to address people on multiple levels of understanding.

Often, such language is identified by comments like, "He who has an ear, let him hear" (New Testament) or "Herein are signs for those who have knowledge" (Quran).

The ancient teachers weren't attempting to hide knowledge, they were attempting to reveal advanced truths, but in such a way that people would not be damaged by knowledge more potent than they could, at that point in their development, digest.

Allah imposes not on any soul
a burden beyond its scope.

- Quran 2:286


posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 09:08 AM
And "the Rock" is actually sex.

Without mastering the Sexual Force, there can be no real spiritual advancement.

This is the symbolism of transforming the Rough Stone(of the fornicators) into the Perfected Stone(of the Chaste Initiate).

The disciple needs to stay celibate(through Meditation, Faith and Pranayama) until they meet meet their husband or wife; and then they marry(unite sexually) their spouse; then continue to work in the 9th Sphere(Yesod - Sex) without ever reaching the orgasm(fornication).

This is how the Perfected Stone is built and how the Advent of the Fire of the Holy Spirit occurs(along with Faith, Practice, Love and Right Action of course).

For more on this, go here: Alchemy and Tantra


posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 10:27 AM

Philosophical Stone

An Alchemical symbol of the Intimate Christ dressed with bodies of Gold. When acquired, this stone gives powers over nature. It is lost when thrown in water (through fornication). When the stone is dissolved in (sexual) water, then the metallic Spirit is melted, and interior Magnes escapes. It is said when this happens, one dissolves the stone in water on Saturday (Saturn = death). The Philosophical Stone is passes through phases of development: black, red & white. It is also the Cubic stone of Yesod (Parsifal Unveiled), the stone that Jacob anointed with oil and "a Stone of stumbling, a rock of offense."

Nicolas Valois: “It is a Stone of great virtue, and is called a Stone and is not a stone.”

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 02:22 PM
all this stuff about smooth stones and rough stones and sexuality..its olde and ancient fertility worship..not Christianity.

In Eastern terminology and pagans too..its the smooth ashler and the rough ashler and the tools of the Craft make one smooth and refined. I have several books on Occult principles on my book shelf.
This is not new stuff or enlightment is a rehash of olde ancient fertility principles trying to make a comeback among a ignorant pagan people who want to bring back the ancient traditions or as they say themselves" The restoration of the true brotherhood"" to seek for that which is lost"

Not everyone here can follow the pattern..but from the looks of other boards neither is everyone is ignorant about it.

No where in the Bible ....olde or new testaments does it say to glorify sex or sexualty ..period..or to do as the nations surrounding Israel did..the abominations of which you describe in your posts Tamahu. The nation of Israel was punnished over and over for these abominations and so will be the Christians for being seduced by it today...many of them unknowingly but no matter .so where the Hebrews.

Thanks Orangetom

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 02:48 PM
First of all; see my first post in this thread.

It shows how absurd the Western mindstate, or left-hemisphere mind is, in it's literal interpretations of scriptures(and everything else).

You really think that the Water(Sexual Fluid) that Yeshua Hamashiah transmuted into Wine(Christic Light), is a literal story?

The only 'pagans', are the Mono-Idolaters who think that they are "Monotheists".


Klipoth 7: Saturn

...But the opposite are the enemies of the Holy Spirit - the fornicators.

In the Seventh Sphere of Hell, related with the negative aspect of Saturn, you find all the enemies of the Holy Spirit. They declare themselves enemies of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they do it consciously, sometimes unconsciously.

Dante Alighieri found Priests there, in the Seventh Sphere, who were celibate. Of course, when someone doesn't conquer the dominion of the sexual force in their physical body, and rejects the sexual act, but ignores how to transmute, they are an enemy of the Holy Spirit.

These people think they can reach God by rejecting the sexual act
- they ignore that in order to reach that level one needs first of all to teach the physical body how to transmute in the physical act and to create the Wedding Garment of the Soul, to reach the Second Birth.

They are enemies of the Holy Spirit - most of them have nocturnal pollutions, wet dreams, where all of the energy of the Holy Spirit spills out of their body. They fornicate when they have that type of dream, because fornication is when the sexual matter leaves the sexual organs - that is fornication. Whether it is by masturbation, or wet dream, or whether in legitimate matrimony - it doesn't matter how the sexual matter leaves the body, if it is spilled, it is fornication, it is written.

"And if any man's semen go out from him during copulation, then he shall wash all his flesh in (the sexual) waters (of Yesod), and be unclean until the even (Klipoth).

The woman also with whom man shall lie with semen during copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in (the sexual) waters (of Yesod), and be unclean until the even (Klipoth)". - Leviticus15:16, 18

And the enemies of the Holy Spirit hate the cross - how are they called? There are many levels of this type of hatred, but the most well known person is Dracula.

Who is Dracula? A vampire - a type of psychological defect, a lustful defect, which is related with homosexuality. A male vampire is a homosexual, and a female vampire is a lesbian, in the physical world. They hate the cross, because the cross is the crossing of the masculine force with the feminine force in the sexual act. The phallus united with the uterus makes the cross. This is why male and female vampires hate the cross.

Those vampires are the egos of lust of homosexuals and lesbians. So there are as many male and female vampires as homosexuals and lesbians in the world - those egos that like to suck the energy of those that are "normal."

In a similar way as the ego of anger likes to fight and argue, the ego of homosexuality and lesbianism likes to suck the energy and hates the cross, and gives a lot of justifications in order to justify its hatred of the cross. That is why they are enemies of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit works in the cross, makes life in the cross.

The Holy Spirit is that wisdom, that intelligence, that unites two atoms of hydrogen with one atom of oxygen, crosses them, and in that cross the Holy Spirit makes water, and thanks to the water we are alive.

In every single union, or crossing of elements, is what is nature. The Holy Spirit is always creating different types of life with the crossing of elements. The sperm and the ovum, or the water etc, are always the result of the cross.

The cross is a holy symbol.

That is why Jesus was crucified on the cross - because he was sacrificing himself in order to give life, through the cross.

That's why it is stupid when you know the knowledge to say that Jesus also accepts homosexuals and gives them eternal life, to say that they will be saved. Homosexuals and lesbians are rotten seeds, spiritually speaking. Why? Because they do not germinate, not even physically.

Homosexual marriages adopt children because they cannot create life, they have given up creating life, because they hate the cross, physically speaking. So how are they going to create internal light, internal life, how are they going to make light in the darkness when they justify their homosexuality and lesbianism? They are lost cases. Not because we say so, but because they cannot even make life physically, let alone internally. They hate the cross. In order to make light in the darkness you need to worship the cross, but not just believing in it, but working in it, in the Holy Sabbath. But the homosexuals and lesbians are enemies of the Holy Spirit, they violate the Sabbath and follow Lilith, those who hate the Holy Spirit and love Laila, the Night.

In the Seventh Sphere of Hell, controlled by 672 laws, we find those souls who are violent against the Holy Spirit.

There are many ways to perform violence against the Holy Spirit, but the worst way is in the way of homosexuality. They violate their sexual organs, using the Tabernacle of the Holy Spirit in the wrong way and hating the cross.

But also there is violence against nature in those who masturbate, they commit violence against their own body, against life, against the Holy Spirit.

Castration is violence against the Holy Spirit. There are many kinds of castration in these times - we find, for instance, women that cut their fallopian tubes - the female organs are the Holy Tabernacle of Jehovah Elohim, where the Holy Spirit creates life in their body.

Other ways are putting anything inside the physical body to avoid the Holy Spirit making life. This is violence against the Holy Spirit - any contraception. The Holy Spirit is the one that works, is that intelligence in that marvellous communion between the sexual organs and the pineal gland in order to create the hormones that we call the sperm and ovum, for life to be created in this physical world. But when a woman puts into her body pills, any kind of contraceptive, in order to break that marvellous intelligence in the body, she is committing violence against the Holy Spirit, is violating the body, breaking the functioning, the metabolism of their body, with consequences.

Vasectomy is violence against nature, violence against the Holy Spirit.

Everything that goes against life is violence against the Holy Spirit.

There are many vets that think they are doing good by neutering cats and dogs, but they perform violence against the Holy Spirit. What the Holy Spirit created in the animals, they are cutting.

There are many enemies of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the one that illuminates when you enter into chastity, in the path. And you acquire wisdom, intelligence, thanks to the Holy Spirit...

These, are the type of abominations that are so common in the world today. :shk:

Besides; that fanatical so-called "Christian", Sex-hating nonsense, already got crushed in this thread:


[edit on 24-4-2005 by Tamahu]

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 04:51 PM

Originally posted by lapi7
Jesus tells Peter that his insight is from the Holy Spirit and it is upon Peter's ANSWER, not Peter himself, that Christ would build His church.
[edit on 23-4-2005 by lapi7]

I agree with this. It is Peter's answer and not Peter, that is what Jesus is referring too.

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 07:51 PM
Concerning our enemies there is the clear commandment of the Lord: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you (Matthew 5:44).

Glory be to God for all things......

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 08:59 PM
Now getting back to Saint Peter and the Rock.....

(Luke 22:24-30).

Saint Luke narrates that following this,
an argument arose between the disciples as to who was superior among them.
By washing the feet of the Apostles,
the Lord taught them to humbly serve one another.
this did not eradicate the very idea of superiority or authority,
and having initiated a general uniform equality into His Church,
like washing feet,
He didn’t lose His worthiness as Lord and Teacher through this.
In enlightening His disciples,
the Lord stated that even the powerful must serve others.
If we were to take the point of view of the Roman-Catholics that Apostle Peter was the head of all the Apostles,
then this argument among the Apostles would make no sense, and the Lord would have stopped the argument by confirming Peter as the superior one among them.
Apart from this,
we hear something totally different from the Lord: just as in previous circumstances,
the Lord is instilling into the Apostles that they shouldn’t strive toward primacy but to concentrate only on mutual service toward one another.
For their faithfulness to Him,
they are promised the inheritance of the Heavenly Kingdom,
and that they will all sit equally on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel i.e. they will receive a uniform, especial honor in the next world.

(John 13:31-38 and chps. 14-16 Mat. 26:30-35; Mark 14:26-31; Luke 22:31-38)
In leaving you in this world for the continuation of My work,
“A new commandment I give to you,
that you love one another,
as I have loved you…” From My love of humans,
I give My life for them,
and you must continue to emulate Me in this.
The command of love thy neighbor had already been given in the law of Moses,
but Christ gave it a new character that was unknown previously — in the Name of Christ,
love even your own enemies,
even to the point of self-sacrifice.
Such a pure, selfless and altruistic love is a sign of genuine Christianity.
Saint Paul then poses a question full of sorrow and fear: “Lord, where are You going?
” The Lord confirms that now he is unable to follow Him,
but Peter forecasts that in future,
he shall follow the same path of martyrdom. This is followed by the prediction to Peter of his denial,
which is narrated by all 4 Evangelists. In warning Peter of his self-confidence (when he started to assert that he will lay his life down for the Lord), Saint Luke writes that the Lord said to him: “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat…”

It is characteristic of the Lord here to call him Simon and not Peter,
because having renounced the Lord,
Peter showed that he had ceased to be a “rock.” “Sift” means satan’s temptations,
to which the Apostles were indeed submitted in the hours of the Lord’s sufferings — when their faith in Him was ready to waver.
This request by satan reminds us of his similar request concerning the Long-suffering Job,
who was submitted to arduous temptations because the Lord permitted it. The Lord’s almighty prayers protected His disciples — in particular Peter — from a total downfall.
The Lord permitted Peter to succumb temporarily, so that through this, he would become stronger and fortify his fellow disciples.
“I have prayed for you” — although danger from satan was threatening everyone, the Lord especially prayed for Peter because being more passionate and determined,
he was threatened with more danger. “And when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brothers” — this indicates that after Peter’s denial of Christ, he would be a model of genuine repentance and an example of resoluteness.

from explanation of the four Gospels...

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 10:54 PM
The name "Peter" does mean "rock" but the word translated rock in the verse is a slightly different Greek word than "petros." Jesus uses the word "petra" which is female in gender, and means "bedrock" (i.e. a rock formation in contrast to a loose piece of rock). The rest of the Bible tells us what Jesus means by bedrock, since from all of Scripture we know that the Christian church is not built on any human being but on Christ, God's Son, our only Savior. So by "bedrock" Jesus is referring to Peter's confession in v16, not Peter himself. This becomes all the more evident a few verses later (v23) when Jesus rebukes Peter and calls him "Satan" when Peter tries to prevent Jesus from going to Jerusalem to die.

In v19 Jesus says he will give the keys to Peter (the authority to forgive and not to forgive sins). Jesus also gave this authority to all the apostles (Jn 20:23) and to all Christians (Mt 18:18, 20). So Mt 16:19 does not give Peter an authority that places him above other believers.


Satan is perfectly delighted if we become Bible trivia experts by spending our time searching for strange new meanings or codes hidden in the text of Scripture. Such pursuits puff people up with supposed facts or knowledge, but often lead them away from what builds humble faith. Consider how the destructive allegory your using (searching for fanciful levels of meaning in every passage of Scripture) has always been to the Christian Church. Instead of seeking to take God's simple message of law and gospel to heart, such playing with Scripture (codes, allegory, and the like) distorts Bible study into a game for the mentally nimble instead of a challenge and comfort to the spiritually sick. Those who engage in such spiritual sport often become so enamored with what they claim to have unearthed in the Bible that they lose all sight of the simple message of sin and grace which God has very clearly proclaimed. Indulging in such debate over curious questions raised about Scripture instead of taking its obvious message to heart was one of the chief failings of the scribes and pharisees whom Jesus so soundly called to repentance. They loved to debate the deep wisdom of the rabbis supposedly gleaned from Scripture, but they couldn't recognize God's Messiah when he stood right before them! They were Bible experts whose eyes were blind to the truth of the Bible!

posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 11:08 PM
Jehosephat.....where were you before I wrote all that ?
Copy and paste.....
good explanation....easy to understand!

And your answer to Tamahu.....
I think you did great.

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 12:14 AM
Restricting a study to only Matthew:

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones (lithon) to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matthew 4:3
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones (lithoi) be made bread.

Matthew 7:9
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone (lithon)?

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter(petros), and upon this rock(petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone (lithon) shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Matthew 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks (petrai) rent;

Matthew 27:60
And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock(petra): and he rolled a great stone(lithon) to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Matthew 27:66
So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone(lithon), and setting a watch.

Matthew 28:2
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone (lithon) from the door, and sat upon it.

My thoughts:

Kepha/Kefa/Kepa is Aramaic for Stone/Rock/foundation/bedrock.

The author of Mathew uses the following:
A derivative of petra for "big" kepha.
A derivative of lithos for "little" kepha.

Seems to me Peter is a "big" kepha.

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 01:52 AM
What about St. Peter and the Big Show? Think they would make a much better tag team then Peter and The Rock. Maybe when RVD comes off the injured list him and Peter can team up to get the titles from Eddie and Rey.

Anyways, on topic, this is from the bible, so wrong. Like how the bible says it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery, or that women are evil when on their period so men are to stay away from them. Just ask the judge if she is on her rag before you approach the bench in Traffic Court. Or even better, ask Judge Judy is she is on the rag before entering the court room on national tv. Or ask Ann Coulter if he is.... wait, do reptoids have periods?(yes he, no evidence AC is female, at least not with that Adams Apple)

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 06:45 AM
The catholic church wasnt built on Peter. The pagan catholic church was built on the roman god Jupiter. That is why the statue of Jupiter , with the sun over its head, sits in st peters basillica. That is why the popes throne also sits there...with the huge sunburst behind it. Take a look at the link in the babyon-rome thread for the pictures.

as for this

Anyways, on topic, this is from the bible, so wrong. Like how the bible says it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery, or that women are evil when on their period so men are to stay away from them. Just ask the judge if she is on her rag before you approach the bench in Traffic Court. Or even better, ask Judge Judy is she is on the rag before entering the court room on national tv. Or ask Ann Coulter if he is.... wait, do reptoids have periods?(yes he, no evidence AC is female, at least not with that Adams Apple)

If you will quote Jesus on that, Id like to see it. Christians are his followers.

DENY IGNORANCE.... even the 'lessor' ignorance.

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 06:47 AM
And maybe most fitting would be to reference Peter's words, since he is who Christ spoke the statement to. Peter shows he clearly understood Christ's meaning:

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
I Peter 2:6-8

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 06:52 AM
Nice find Valhall

That chapter should be the end of the matter, and prove that the catholic church is built on a lie

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 07:09 AM
I think Peter was very careful in that whole passage. He equates the cornerstone, the stone, the rock as referred to in Matthew when Christ spoke to Peter, and the Word all back to one single point - that of the Christ.

[edit on 4-25-2005 by Valhall]

posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 08:57 AM
Thanks Val...Jake..

You are Peter, and on this rock(Peters faith in Christ)
I will build My Church,
and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it” (Mat. 16:18).
It was at the first meeting that the Lord named Simon Peter in Greek,
or Cephas in Chaldean,
meaning “rock” (John 1:42).
Now, it is as if He is witnessing that Peter is justifying his given name,
and that by his faith,
he is truly a rock.

Here Jesus Christ ....

In concluding His parable, the Lord likens Himself to the 22-23 verses of the 118th Psalm,
calling Himself the Rock,
which the builders have rejected i.e. the leaders of the Jewish people, and Which became “the chief cornerstone” — the keystone of the grand building of the New Testament Church. .........

If the Lord had Peter in mind as a personality,
He would have said something like this: “You are Peter,
and I shall build My Church upon you!”
what was said was totally different,
which is especially evident in the Greek text — an essential reference point in cases of misunderstanding.
The word Petros is not repeated there,
although it too means Stone.
What is used is the word petra,
meaning cliff.
From this,
it is clear that the Lord in addressing Peter, promises to establish His Church not on him but on that faith,
which Peter displayed i.e.
on the great truth that “Christ is the Son of the Living God.”
This is the way that Saint Goldentongue and other great Elders of the Church interpreted this.
Under the word “stone,” they understood it to mean a confession of faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, Son of God, or even simply faith in Jesus Christ Himself, Who is often mentioned in the Holy Scripture as a rock (e.g. Exodus 28:16; Genesis 4:11; Romans 9:33; 1 Cor. 10:4).


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