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Leading American Evangelicals Caught on Secret Tape Conspiring Against US Government

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posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 01:31 AM
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That's my reading of it anyway. Your mileage may vary. Is it a conspiracy in religion? A conspiracy in politics? A terrorist plot uncovered? Or just good old Christian political activism? Too little difference these days to tell.

Leading Evangelicals Want to Strip Courts' Funds
Taped at a private conference, the leaders outline ways to punish jurists they oppose.
LATimes.com


WASHINGTON — Evangelical Christian leaders, who have been working closely with senior Republican lawmakers to place conservative judges in the federal courts, have also been exploring ways to punish sitting jurists and even entire courts viewed as hostile to their cause.

An audio recording obtained by the Los Angeles Times features two of the nation's most influential evangelical leaders, at a private conference with supporters, laying out strategies to rein in judges, such as stripping funding from their courts in an effort to hinder their work.

The discussion took place during a Washington conference last month that included addresses by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who discussed efforts to bring a more conservative cast to the courts.


Obviously they had no idea somebody was wired in the closed door meeting as the evangelical summit attendees laid out a history of court rulings they found offensive, singling out the recent finding by the Supreme Court that executing minors was unconstitutional.

This is as "Evangelicals Gone Wild" as you get. A tape of Pastors mad they can't execute minors anymore? :shk: Amen.

In a particularly accurate bit of prophecy James C. Dobson, founder of the influential group Focus on the Family, was caught justifying his SpongeBob foray with the lamentation "This will not be the last thing that you read about that makes me look ridiculous." Ya think?

The plotted onslaught of the Christian soldiers though is summarized by Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council as follows: "There's more than one way to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to take a black robe off the bench."

The plan goes something like this (as later alluded to by conference attendee Tom DeLay):


DeLay has spoken generally about one of the ideas the leaders discussed in greater detail: using legislative tactics to withhold money from courts.

"We set up the courts. We can unset the courts. We have the power of the purse," DeLay said at an April 13 question-and-answer session with reporters.


Plan B from the Religious Right then when unable to abort sitting jurists or prevent the use of filibuster contraception to impregnate the court with it's own agenda is to simply pull the plug and starve the Judiciary Branch of the Fedral Government!


The leaders present at the March conference, including Perkins and James C. Dobson, founder of the influential group Focus on the Family, have been working with Frist to eliminate the filibuster for judicial nominations, a legislative tool that has allowed Senate Democrats to stall 10 of President Bush's nominations. Frist is scheduled to appear, via a taped statement, during a satellite broadcast to churches nationwide Sunday that the Family Research Council has organized to build support for the Bush nominees.

The March conference featuring Dobson and Perkins showed that the evangelical leaders, in addition to working to place conservative nominees on the bench, have been trying to find ways to remove certain judges.

Perkins said that he had attended a meeting with congressional leaders a week earlier where the strategy of stripping funding from certain courts was "prominently" discussed. "What they're thinking of is not only the fact of just making these courts go away and re-creating them the next day but also defunding them," Perkins said.

He said that instead of undertaking the long process of trying to impeach judges, Congress could use its appropriations authority to "just take away the bench, all of his staff, and he's just sitting out there with nothing to do."

These curbs on courts are "on the radar screen, especially of conservatives here in Congress," he said.

Dobson, who emerged last year as one of the evangelical movement's most important political leaders, named one potential target: the California-based U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.


Failing that, Plan C of the Religious leaders would be to merely have their french poodles, Fristie and DeLay, close down the judicial clinics altogether.


"Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court," Dobson said. "They don't have to fire anybody or impeach them or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone."


Prominent heathens were said to be shocked at the religious subversives:


The remarks by Perkins and Dobson drew fire from Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, who charged that the two leaders were more brazen in such private encounters with supporters than their more genteel public images portray.

"To talk about defunding judges is just about the most bizarre, radical approach to controlling the outcome of court decisions that you can imagine," Lynn said.


And the remarks weren't all directed at controlling the Judiciary (though neither were they very religious) as those darn "squishy" and "weak" Republicans that the Religious Right doesn't have totally on a leash yet may soon be a target as well as Bill "He needs to get on with it" Frist and George "Lame Duck President" Bush.


The remarks by Perkins and Dobson reflect the passion felt by Christians who helped fuel Bush's reelection last year with massive turnout in battleground states, and who also spurred Republican gains in the Senate and House.

Claiming a role by the movement in the GOP gains, Dobson concluded: "We've got a right to hold them accountable for what happens here."

Both leaders chastised what Perkins termed "squishy" and "weak" Republican senators who have not wholeheartedly endorsed ending Democrats' power to filibuster judicial nominees. They said these included moderates such as Sens. Olympia J. Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. They also grumbled that Sens. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and George Allen of Virginia needed prodding.

"We need to shake these guys up," Perkins said.

Said Dobson: "Sometimes it's just amazing to me that they seem to forget how they got here."

Even Bush was not spared criticism. Dobson and Perkins encouraged their supporters to demand that the president act as aggressively on the judiciary as he has for his Social Security overhaul.

"These are not Bill Frist's nominees; these are President George W. Bush's nominees," Perkins said. "He needs to be out there putting pressure on these senators who are weak on this issue and standing in obstruction to these nominations," he said.

Dobson chided Frist, a likely 2008 presidential contender, for not acting sooner on the filibuster issue, urging "conservatives all over the country" to tell Frist "that he needs to get on with it."

Dobson also said Republicans risked inflicting long-term damage on their party if they failed to seize the moment — a time when Bush still has the momentum of his reelection victory — to transform the courts. He said they had just 18 months to act before Bush becomes a "lame-duck president."


And finally some "Good News." A light at the end of the dark age?


"If we let that 18 months get away from us and then maybe we got Hillary to deal with or who knows what, we absolutely will not recover from that," [Dobson] said.


[edit on 23-4-2005 by RANT]




posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 01:38 AM
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Articles I & III of the U.S. Constitution make it clear that Congress controls the existance of all Federal courts inferior to the Supreme Court, so it's perfectly constitutional for them to disband a district or circuit court of appeals, it has been done before. Personally, I'd kind of like to see the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals disbanded, but will it happen? I sincerely doubt it.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Articles I & III of the U.S. Constitution make it clear that Congress controls the existance of all Federal courts inferior to the Supreme Court, so it's perfectly constitutional for them to disband a district or circuit court of appeals, it has been done before. Personally, I'd kind of like to see the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals disbanded, but will it happen? I sincerely doubt it.


I even got the impression from Dobson it was "legal" (technically):


Very few people know this, that the Congress can simply disenfranchise a court," Dobson said. "They don't have to fire anybody or impeach them or go through that battle. All they have to do is say the 9th Circuit doesn't exist anymore, and it's gone."


But is it ethical for the reasons they're doing it? They don't like the sitting Judge? Is it ethical for them to even be conspiring with one arm of government (they obviously feel is subordinate to them) against another arm of government?

This is really two men that think they run the country. Two religious leaders, using their religion as political power over everyone from Bush on down to you and me. Doesn't that smack you in the face as a bit wrong?

And even moreso a conspiracy in religion than political, though it's obviously for politcal gain. This is the second time today I've busted out Barry Goldwater now, and that in and of itself is a bad omen.



However, on religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'

Sen. Barry Goldwater (R)

All the "crazies" from a quarter century ago were right about practically everything. It was a bad idea to recruit Islam in the fight against the Soviet Union. And it was a bad idea to recruit the Christian Evangelicals in the fight against (what?) minimum wage hikes? :shk: It's just been a bad idea to incorporate religion in government since we had either, but now two men think they run America because of their religious supporters?

These are the American Taliban. Revealed. Caught on tape. It aint pretty to look at, but it's there.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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I agree that it doesn't look good, but thanks RANT, you've reminded of something about the 9th Circuit I'd been meaning to post for a while. There are many reasons to dislike that court without invoking God, Allah etc.

My Post

As I mentioned in the post, the 9th Circuit is the most reversed court in the U.S. If it's consistantly being overturned, isn't it just wasting the time of the SCOTUS?



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 06:01 AM
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Agreed.
I guess this falls into that saying, "Any publicity is good publicity", if your a right winger.

The 9th is more agenda ridden then then some of the people on this site. Its almost like the ACLU has staffed the 9th with its own people, and then when it needs to futher some antichristian agenda, it does it in the 9th district.
Now there's the conspiracy gentlemen.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 06:09 AM
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posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 06:15 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Its almost like the ACLU has staffed the 9th with its own people, and then when it needs to futher some antichristian agenda, it does it in the 9th district.
Now there's the conspiracy gentlemen.


It's not almost like, it's fact. One of the judges on the court, Stephen Reinhardt who was on the panel and wrote the decision I referred to in the post I linked to above, is married to the ACLU head for Southern California.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 06:16 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Agreed.
I guess this falls into that saying, "Any publicity is good publicity", if your a right winger.

The 9th is more agenda ridden then then some of the people on this site. Its almost like the ACLU has staffed the 9th with its own people, and then when it needs to futher some antichristian agenda, it does it in the 9th district.
Now there's the conspiracy gentlemen.


news.google.com...


so which ruling do you consider offensive?

By any chance is it this one:

SAN DIEGO (AP) -- California asked the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Wednesday to order more than $6 billion in refunds for overcharges on electricity during the state's 2000-2001 energy crisis.


ya, I can see why this would cause the administration in washington some heartache....how dare they take money from their buddies!!!

or maybe this:

"Just in time for the picking of a new pope, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decided Monday that Holocaust survivors can pursue the Vatican Bank for profiting from a Nazi puppet regime. "

or this?

"What makes a corporate executive's pay "extraordinary"?

It all depends, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said Tuesday -- but the combined $37 million planned for two executives at Gemstar-TV Guide International certainly fit the bill. "

as far as the Judge's being antichristian....

"What these self-avowed Christians do not acknowledge -- and what the American public seems little aware of -- is that the war they are waging is actually against other people calling themselves Christians. To simplify: Right-wing and fundamentalist Christians are really at war with left-wing and mainstream Christians. It is a battle over both the meaning and practice of Christianity as well as over the definition and destiny of the republic. Secular humanism is a bogeyman, a smoke screen obscuring the right-wing Christians' struggle for supremacy. "

www.washingtonpost.com...

define christian??? because obviously some christains are disagreeing with your defination here. just like in Europe a long time ago, that resulting in how many wars!






[edit on 23-4-2005 by dawnstar]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
This is really two men that think they run the country.

If they think that, then they are in for a surprise when reality
kicks them in their butt ends. Religion doesn't run this country.
Freedom of religion is a foundation, but religion itself doesn't
run this country.

Two religious leaders, using their religion as
political power over everyone from Bush on down to you and me.

Everyone connected with DC has an agenda. Kennedy. Hillary.
G.W. Rummy. NEA. NRA. Planned Parenthood. Lobbyists. Everyone.
The NEA uses it's political power over everyone in an even more
powerful way and honestly, they are more frightening than these
two yahoos. The NEA has real power and real control over the
children of America (reminds me of hitler youth programs). The
extreme religious right doesn't have power. It thinks it does,
but it doesn't.

Doesn't that smack you in the face as a bit wrong?

They ALL smack me as a bit wrong. No. Let me rephrase. Some
are a bit wrong and some are massively wrong. These guys can
whine and stamp their feet and threaten to have their followers
withold money donations or whatever. That's their American right
to do so . But honestly ... how many people are really listening
to them?



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
These guys can whine and stamp their feet and threaten to have their followers withold money donations or whatever. That's their American right to do so . But honestly ... how many people are really listening to them?


Tomorrow is "Justice Sunday" when Dobson and Perkins simulcast their political edicts into Churches all around the country. We won't know how many until after the fact if ever, but something between hundreds and thousands of congregations (equalling thousands to millions of evangelicals) will be under the electronic thumb of these two, not unlike a theo-terrorist in Iraq screaming over Mosque loudspeakers "This or that Judge must go, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to remove a Judge. Do you want to go to heaven my subjects? Aye-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi!!! In the name of Jesus, avenge God's law!!!

[edit on 23-4-2005 by RANT]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:50 AM
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"define christian??? because obviously some christains are disagreeing with your defination here. just like in Europe a long time ago, that resulting in how many wars!"


Now there lies the problem. People like you who have so much to say about christians, do not know what a christian is. I am not knocking you, its not your fault. You were taught bad information.

If you know what it means to be christian, then you wouldnt paint such a wide brush.

You either keep christs word, or your not a christian.
I wish they would put that on the test for membership here.
the RCC is not christian any more then Islam is christian.

Besides...dont you know that Pope JP2 said that muslims and jews will goto heaven (even tho they deny christ is the Son...go figure) but that there is no salvation outside the rcc for protestants.



Now, what would christ say?
If you are going to try to trash something, at least get the history straight.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Humm...........This doesn't surprised me, we all know what the fundamentalist agenda is all about, control the government control the courts and you control the country his people and their lives. That if the people allowed that.

Now I wonder........under the patriot act both of this two "Evangelical leaders" should be brought up on charges for "Terrorist acts again the government"


Still with all the dirt under Delay he seems untouchable I guess the power of the fundis is becoming to attach already to the Republican party and the Government.

The true colors of our leaders is showing like a rainbow


Next they will be using x rays devises for anybody attending this close doors confferences.


Impeach the entire Republican party for planning a take over of the nation for Christ.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
"define christian??? because obviously some christains are disagreeing with your defination here. just like in Europe a long time ago, that resulting in how many wars!"


Now there lies the problem. People like you who have so much to say about christians, do not know what a christian is. I am not knocking you, its not your fault. You were taught bad information.

If you know what it means to be christian, then you wouldnt paint such a wide brush.

You either keep christs word, or your not a christian.
I wish they would put that on the test for membership here.
the RCC is not christian any more then Islam is christian.

Besides...dont you know that Pope JP2 said that muslims and jews will goto heaven (even tho they deny christ is the Son...go figure) but that there is no salvation outside the rcc for protestants.



Now, what would christ say?
If you are going to try to trash something, at least get the history straight.


umm....how many times in the new testament does it say that women should obey their husbands in ALL THINGS?

ya know, I've had women on other boards supporting this idea...but then all of a sudden...
oh, I got to go, my husband will be home...and he doesn't like me being on the internet like this!!!

so, what can I say.....quit trying to enforce "God's laws" onto others if you are unwilling to keep those laws yourself!!!

for your information.....my husband was a deacon of a church for awhile...



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
"define christian??? because obviously some christains are disagreeing with your defination here. just like in Europe a long time ago, that resulting in how many wars!"


Now there lies the problem. People like you who have so much to say about christians, do not know what a christian is. I am not knocking you, its not your fault. You were taught bad information.

If you know what it means to be christian, then you wouldnt paint such a wide brush.

You either keep christs word, or your not a christian.
I wish they would put that on the test for membership here.
the RCC is not christian any more then Islam is christian.

Besides...dont you know that Pope JP2 said that muslims and jews will goto heaven (even tho they deny christ is the Son...go figure) but that there is no salvation outside the rcc for protestants.



Now, what would christ say?
If you are going to try to trash something, at least get the history straight.


Well, I think your own words bear out that RANT - who apparently is not a christian (I'm only assuming this based on his own words, he can correct me if I'm wrong) - hasn't got a snowball's chance in Hades of answering who a christian is. Because - now I have to assume you are a christian based on your own words (you can correct me if I'm wrong) - you don't even have the answer right.


the RCC is not christian any more then Islam is christian.


When you say "RCC" are you referring to the organization or the entire church (including the believers)? I'm willing to bet my next paycheck there are as many christians within the laity of the Catholic church, by percentage, as there is in any other Christian organization's laity. You can't judge who is a christian and who is not. That's something between them and God.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
"You either keep christs word, or your not a christian.
... the RCC is not christian any more then Islam is christian.


Oh brother. I suppose that only Sola Scripturas
understand what 'Christ's Word' is and so they are the
only ones going to heaven?

There are thousands upon thousands of different scriptural
interpretations by the different Christian denominations.
Each and every one claims to have interpreted Christ's Words
as they should be. Each independent bible christian claims
to have interpreted the bible correctly, and yet it is usually
different from the bible christian who lives down the road from
him/her.

Your statement that the Roman Catholic Church isn't
Christian is silly. Just because they interpret the bible
(which was put together by a CATHOLIC council ~350AD)
differently makes then not Christian to you.

Have you ever bothered to check to see what the
Catholic church believes. Ever crack open the Catechism?
Or do you just read Jack Chick tracts and listen to what
fundamentalist preachers claim the Catholic church
believes?

Read up.
www.catholic.com...



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
Dobson and Perkins simulcast their political edicts into Churches
all around the country....between hundreds and thousands of
congregations (equalling thousands to millions of evangelicals) ...


I didn't realize their reach was so big. I had no idea of how
widespread they were. Okay ... so let's say millions of fundies
listen to them... I will take comfort in the thought that they are
just 'preaching to the choir' and that those who are listening
to them are just those that already believe like them. No
'new recruits' so to say ...



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:20 AM
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Though I do believe jake1997 was responding to dawnstar...


Originally posted by Valhall
You can't judge who is a christian and who is not. That's something between them and God.


This is correct.
And why the self appointed Judges of Judges in this topic (Dosbon and Perkins) happen to also be the main one's I see defining a "good Christian" from a "bad Christian" as well as what constitutes a family and what does not, along with a whole host of other controversial edicts on high.

As for whether or not I'm a Christian, I'm far too young to be making those sort of decisions. I think Jesus was well into his 30's before realizing He was the physical manifestation of God, so I'm still holding out for a better offer than "follower."



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by RANT
Dobson and Perkins simulcast their political edicts into Churches
all around the country....between hundreds and thousands of
congregations (equalling thousands to millions of evangelicals) ...


I didn't realize their reach was so big. I had no idea of how
widespread they were. Okay ... so let's say millions of fundies
listen to them... I will take comfort in the thought that they are
just 'preaching to the choir' and that those who are listening
to them are just those that already believe like them. No
'new recruits' so to say ...



And I honestly believe (though I can't prove) they're just the racially palatable front men for the self proclaimed (and false) Messiah Sun Myung Moon, who really runs this country. I'd put the GOP controlled legislature at least 3 rungs down on the pyramind, but that's just crazy talk, right?



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
but that's just crazy talk, right?

Moon? Yep. That's crazy.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
I think Jesus was well into his 30's before realizing
He was the physical manifestation of God

He died at 33 - which isn't 'well into his 30's'.
He knew he was God well before that. The OFFICIAL
Catholic belief is that He was ALWAYS aware of who
He was. Other more radical elements say he gradually
became aware of it. Some moderates say he was aware
by age 12 (see the Finding of Christ in the Temple story).

Hey .. you wrote the pronoun for Christ - He - with a
capital 'H'. Very good. Most folks don't remember to do that.
Good grammar. And on the internet no less!



so I'm still holding out for a better offer than "follower."

You can be one of my first Lieutenants when I take over the planet.
How's that for an offer? ha ha ha
Or would you rather be an
evangelical 'follower' ? Would that be better?



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