Freewill in Heaven?

page: 1
0

log in

join

posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:47 PM
link   
In thinking about earth and our exisitence as a culture, freewill on earth has show that oppression, evil, slavery, and a host of other problems still continue to exist.

In the Lords prayer, it speaks of " On Earth as it is in Heaven ". When we pass, do we have free will in Heaven? And if so, how possible it it for someone to make serious problems in heaven that might otherwise corrupt a supposedly perfect system.

Is it possible that our life here on earth serves as the qualifier that that will not allow evil to happen in heaven? That our actions here in life serve as the pre-requisite to entering eternal life and not an eternal void as an alternative. I would hope that a thought process much like those of natives found in other parts of the world would prevail in not being able to concieve of concepts of injury or hate would be the fail safe in heaven in conjunction with free will.

Think about it.

Peace




posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:10 PM
link   
There can only be two notions with regard freewill during this earthly life as you outline same, and relative to heaven:

Once in Heaven, it is either that the soul or corporeal resurrection of a person if Christian belief is taken as fact, has found everlasting bliss, unquestionable eternal acceptance of all of God's laws and demands, with the uncompromising acquiescence to same. Or that freewill is removed.

The former is a stretch in that, we can probably count on one hand all those who would fit the bill; Mother Theresa and Ghandi are all that come to my mind from modern times. Logically then we can conclude that freewill is removed, for if it were not then God would face the possibility once again that his children could turn against him by exercising their freewill just as the supposed first sons did.

Freewill as described by religion is a major flaw in theocratic thinking.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:24 PM
link   
It is like car makers all moving towards the ideal auto. Maybe in heaven, even with freewill, all those present will be evolved to a state of selfless balance where their wills are all the same. I don't believe in heaven, btw.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:27 PM
link   
I dont know how to answer that. I guess we'll just have to wait till we get there to find out


But, if you were good enough to make it into heaven, then why start doing bad things when you get up there? Its eternal paradise, why start doing bad things then? Seems kind of idiotic to do something that will take you out of eternal paradise and then be sent to eternal damnation.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Croat56... Its eternal paradise, why start doing bad things then? Seems kind of idiotic to do something that will take you out of eternal paradise and then be sent to eternal damnation.
Reflect on your question and relate same to what you know about the war in Heaven. The consensus is that God's angels rebelled against him, and we know this from the apocryphal book of Enoch first and foremost, nowhere else. Therefore, God's angels exercised freewill which they obviously had in Heaven, and since they were in Heaven, that paradise was not what they found rewarding, so if they did not why should People who have walked this earth with a sin the fallen angels did not originally possess, while committing countless sins on earth suddenly find themselves at death, devoid of all but God-filled thoughts and on a level that plays second fiddle to his angels?


[edit on 4/22/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 11:46 PM
link   

the Lord's Prayer

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.


My interpretation of the bolded section above is that God is in charge of both Heaven and Earth. I don't see this as having anything to do with free will, myself, but I am probably approaching this from a different angle.

I believe free will exists in Heaven. Heaven is supposed to be an idyllic place for those who were good in life, and having your free will stripped from you doesn't sound like much of an eternal reward to me.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 12:30 AM
link   
here is my answer: you have freewill in heaven, however, the evil has been removed in heaven by getting rid of Satan. If there was no freewill than Satan wouldn't exist. In other words, without evil, you aren't tempted to do evil, without Satan, you aren't tempted to go against God's will. And who is really gonna go against Gods will with him right there? Only someone as dumb as Satan would do such a thing.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 01:15 AM
link   
Awesome question! I'd never really looked at it that way, but if we no longer sin, would we have free will? Wish I had an answer, but I don't. Going to have to read through the rest of this thread.

Again, awesome question!



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 01:54 AM
link   
For those interested....
Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife,

According to the Bible......
quote//The idea that God is an angry figure who sends those He condemns to a place called Hell, where they spend eternity in torment separated from His presence, is missing from the Bible and unknown in the early church.
While Heaven and Hell are decidedly real, they are experiential conditions rather than physical places, and both exist in the presence of God. In fact, nothing exists outside the presence of God.

This is not the way traditional Western Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, has envisioned the afterlife.
In Western thought Hell is a location, a place where God punishes the wicked, where they are cut off from God and the Kingdom of Heaven.
Yet this concept occurs nowhere in the Bible, and does not exist in the original languages of the Bible.

aggreen.net...

helen....



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 03:35 AM
link   
While revelation is a dream by John, it speaks of the fires of hell.
Ultimately, in scripture, it says that all will be forgiven and the Christ should make a speedy return. As one person had said, there is discussion about the rebellion in heaven but what ever became of that? Arent all forgiven?
Im praying that earth with out the dangers of earth as a planet might be expected. Also, respect of everyone be restored, and the termination of Death, pain, suffering and defects in form whatever that may be is the outcome and that all are saved. Without injurious effect on others. Love should prevail. I dont know of any other way to explain it.

Peace



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 06:59 AM
link   
You know, it is theoretically possible to take the brain, disconnect all sensory input from the "equation of happiness", and direct a surge of current directly to have "pure bliss/happiness". Sure, I explained it in a silly way, but I am sure you understand what I am talking about.
Now the question is, would you want that? Pure, absolute, extreme happiness, no matter what? Seems very scary.
I think "Heaven" involves a few more things than just pure happiness.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

In the Lords prayer, it speaks of " On Earth as it is in Heaven ". When we pass, do we have free will in Heaven? And if so, how possible it it for someone to make serious problems in heaven that might otherwise corrupt a supposedly perfect system.

Is it possible that our life here on earth serves as the qualifier that that will not allow evil to happen in heaven? That our actions here in life serve as the pre-requisite to entering eternal life and not an eternal void as an alternative. Peace


The pre-requisite to entering heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Our works have nothing to do with it.

When a person dies and goes to heaven, he/she is with God and is not capable of sinning. A christian who has come to Christ for forgiveness is dead to the old man and is a new creation. Our free will is truly free, we no longer have to sin but the things of God mean something to us and we are free to pursue them. It does matter that we start to pursue them while on earth because what we are learning here coincides with the responsibilities we will undertake in heaven. Heaven and eternity are free of sin and satan and evil. A man/womans eternity with God is one that will be free of any evil/sin/wrong/death. It will be one in which construction will take place not destruction. It will be one of always moving forward. It will mean never ever ever ever being bored.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 11:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandtThe pre-requisite to entering heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Our works have nothing to do with it.


I've never understood religions that claim this. According to that belief, if I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior, and then go around killing, raping, stealing and lying, I would still go to Heaven. Maybe some people believe that, but I don't.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne

Originally posted by dbrandtThe pre-requisite to entering heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Our works have nothing to do with it.


I've never understood religions that claim this. According to that belief, if I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior, and then go around killing, raping, stealing and lying, I would still go to Heaven. Maybe some people believe that, but I don't.



The thing is christians spread the good news of the salvation in Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit(God) moves throughout the earth calling people and convicting them of their sin.

A person who has heard of the salvation found in Christ and feels the tug of God at their heart and desiring to be free of their load of sin, cries out to God for deliverance.

That person, if they really meant it, at the moment of the acceptance of Christ for the forgiveness of their sin just had the Holy Spirit enter their body, soul and spirit(I mean literally). You have now become the temple(dwelling place) of the God of the universe. The Holy Sprit brings that dead spirit of the person back alive(their dead spirit is "born again"). They now are sensitive to the things of God, they want to know God. They want to live for Him and we want to grow closer to Him and sin becomes loathesome to us. We no longer want to do it. We don't want to hurt Christ more than we already have.

So can a christian still go around killing, raping, stealing and lying. No they can't because they are a new creation. Old things have passed away and all things are new. Our mind has been renewed. We have a new way of looking at things, from what God desires of us, and actually expects of us. Along with salvation comes the responsibility and duty to follow God.

So that person who continues to kill, rape, steal and lie did not really come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. And as such are not saved and still face eternity in hell.

God will not be fooled when eternity begins. He knows if someone meant it when they accepted Christ and if they didn't.

Let's say someone had a car. It doesn't run very good if even at all. It's pretty worthless and doesn't do what it's supposed too. It needs to be fixed. You vacum the interior wash the outside by hand and put on a fresh coat of the best wax available. It looks good. You start it and it doesn't run. So you take it to a mechanic and he finds out that the engine block is cracked. The problem was internal, it needed a new engine, the old one was "dead". He fixes it and you get the car back and it runs like new. The mechanic adressed the real problem.

People are like that car. We have an internal problem. We can clean up the outside all we want but those wrong internal desires that come to our mind and come out in acts of wrongdoing will keep coming until the real problem is addressed. Our spirit is dead. Invite Jesus Christ to come in and repair that spirit so it can operate properly and you won't want to sin.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 11:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandtThe pre-requisite to entering heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Our works have nothing to do with it.
You say this as though you have proof to this being the truth.

6,000 years ago, it was accepted as truth that were numerable gods. 2,300 years later a man of nobility challenged that concept and declared there was only one superior god, that was his truth, and he and his followers believed this to the extent that they fled their country and set up shop elsewhere, because his concept of truth did not match the 2,300 year old disposition of other god believers. Some decades later, his founded city was destroyed and traces of his one god obliterated by those who held fast to their claimed truth of mutiple gods. Each side steadfast in their belief that they and they alone knew the truth. 2,200 years ago, or after 3,800 years of believing in multiple gods, that supposed truth came to a screeching halt. In other words, it took that civilization three thousand and eight hundred years to finally stop worshipping more than one god, and another 700 years for the other multi-god worshippers to follow suit. There is no doubt that all who lived then and held that belief thought that to be true.

Your young 2,000 year old belief comes to you from man, papyri and paper, and you too have no proof that it is true. In fact, were you to remove the handed down tales and the printed words you would find yourself faced with either a void in that you can fathom no omnipotent, ethereal or otherworldly being responsible for your existence, or that you can. That would be the true measure of truth, not what you have been trained and told to believe but what you reason, instinctively and undeniably feel and accept is real. Millions upon millions of people over several millenia went to their graves believing in gods that were not your god, and they too were told what they were to believe. Your conviction is no greater than theirs was, nor provable, nor is it any more sacrosanct.

The earth is flat. That was true. The earth is a sphere, that is true. The sun revolved around the earth, that was true. The earth revolves around the earth, that too is true, but are we 100% certain we understand the movement of the universe? There were only 5 planets plus the sun and the moon, that was true. There were only 7 planets plus the sun and the moon, that was true also. There were only 9 planets that too is true, or is it? As true as your God until the next truth comes along.



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 01:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by dbrandtThe pre-requisite to entering heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Our works have nothing to do with it.
You say this as though you have proof to this being the truth.



I already know it is true. That is what each person must decide.
And you are certainly free to say He's the Savior or you're certainly free to deny Him. But the argument that truth can't be known about God is a lie.

This is the question of everyone's lifetime "Who do YOU say Jesus is?



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 03:53 PM
link   
response to dbrandt's response to my earlier post:

Ok that makes a lot of sense. Apparently the confusion on my part is purely semantics.


The pre-requisite to entering heaven is accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. Our works have nothing to do with it.



So that person who continues to kill, rape, steal and lie did not really come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. And as such are not saved and still face eternity in hell.

God will not be fooled when eternity begins. He knows if someone meant it when they accepted Christ and if they didn't.


The second quote I completely agree with. The first quote I did not agree with because I interpreted it in a different way than you do. To me, someone who doesn't kill, steal, etc, and who does good deeds in life, those are *works* in my head.

Bottom line is, I think we are in agreement over the ideas, but disagree over the terminology to describe those ideas.



posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 10:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by dbrandtI already know it is true. That is what each person must decide.
And you join the queue of the millions upon millions I previously noted, who also held to their multiple gods conviction.



And you are certainly free to say He's the Savior or you're certainly free to deny Him. But the argument that truth can't be known about God is a lie.
First, about the above two statements; they are independent of each other. Next, I do deny him yes, and finally; the truth about God can be known because he gave it to each of us, he did not give it to joe priest or reverend bob only, or drop it into 995 pages for a printing press to disseminate. When if ever you come to understand this, you will jump the queue of the milions upon millions.


This is the question of everyone's lifetime "Who do YOU say Jesus is?
A rhetorical question, hardly the question of my lifetime though. he is a long dead man, a man who fought against and killed his own people, a man who was aggrandized decades later in fables, a man who if any of the words in the fables are in fact attributable to him, had more than a few aspirations to fulfill the Jewish prophecy of the messiah who would free their nation once and for all from their enemies.

[edit on 4/25/05 by SomewhereinBetween]






top topics



 
0

log in

join