Arabs are now realising they are in deep trouble

Skippy, you relise that people there will be the biggest source of income....imagine the work force....cheap labour.
Insane ammounts.
Besides after what the big 3 have done to those countries its hardly supriseing they dont trust anyone.

My argument has nothing to do with trust or what other nations have done to the region in the past (or present). Once the oil demand is gone im certain you wont see any foriegn wars in the region as well. I bet you wont dissagree with that prediction.

I am making assumptions regarding demand and supply, it just so happens it involves the Middle East. Today they have something the entire world demands. Not bot much else.

My whole argument is based on what the region would need to sustain any resemblance of a modern society. That requires cash and lots of it. I am betting that people in the region have no interest going to a primative or poor way of life. And thats why I think they need to make buds with nations that have a better industrial or export footing like the USA, Russia, and China.

Look at the Sudan or Somalia. These are nations that have nothing of value to export, and barely can produce what it takes to feed its people. The only difference between these two regions is oil, thats it. Take away the Middle Easts oil and we have more Sudans and Somalia's.

There is alot of my opinion here guys, but the logic is sound. No oil, no money, no world interest.

Originally posted by skippytjc
It is just my opinion

Skippy, by your own admission, your views are based on your western-fed perception. Do some research into the history of that region. They were there doing their thing long before the west got it together. They were creating sciences and math that we use today. They were saving the ancient knowledge that church idiots in the west were destroying. They got by with their trading (Syrians, Iraqis), their cattle and shepherding [the Saudis, Kuwaitis (former Iraqis)] and yes - their farming (Iraqis). To this day it is this way. Flying low across the vast Saudi expanse from the coast to the interior, I was blown away by the fact that life exists and goes on in much the same manner as it did in biblical times.

Oil doesn't mean shyte to them, buddy. The only people that make good off oil are the ruling class, the House of Saud and the oil ministers. The vast majority of Arabs are completely unaffected by OIL. Therefore your assertion completely falls apart.

They've been living there successfully (in their way - NOT ours) from the beginning of time. They will be there, doing their thing, till the end of the world. You watch and see.

Originally posted by skippytjc
My whole argument is based on what the region would need to sustain any resemblance of a modern society.

There is alot of my opinion here guys, but the logic is sound. No oil, no money, no world interest.

Again, you are mistakenly projecting YOUR western view of what society should be. Go over THERE. See IT with your own eyes. It is NOT the same as western society. Nor do they wish it to be. That ignorant assumption is the big mistake we in the west ALWAYS seem to make.

If we went away and left them alone, they would be happier than anything else in the world, I would bet. Remember, to Muslims over there, we are INFIDELS. Our culture and physical presence is offensive to them.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Oil doesn't mean shyte to them, buddy. The only people that make good off oil are the ruling class, the House of Saud and the oil ministers. The vast majority of Arabs are completely unaffected by OIL. Therefore your assertion completely falls apart.

They've been living there successfully (in their way - NOT ours) from the beginning of time. They will be there, doing their thing, till the end of the world. You watch and see.

And thats YOUR opinion. Once the oil money is gone, you think sheep herding and trading with OTHER Middle Eastern countries will be enough in todays age? When the "common" folk of the Middle east lived like this, what was the population like? How many 10's of million of more people live in each one of these nations now? You are trying to make an argument based on what WAS, not what IS.

They want that oil money as much as the world wants the oil. No matter what they did in the past, they cannot support themselves in that manor anymore.

If you cant produce enough to support your society, then you need to trade for it. If you dont have anything to trade that the world wants, you will starve.

Your opinion is that the "old" way is enough, my opinion is that it is not enough.

You have a kid East? Let me tell you a story about my kid:

He is just now old enough to eat about everything, including sweets. Well, prior to sweets, we could feed him anything we wanted, including all sorts of vegetables like broccoli and carrots etc. and he ate it up, didnt know any better. He also could only eat a little bit at each sitting. You follow me so far? Now, he has prefferences and he eats a great deal more. Some foods we used to feed him he doesnt want anymore and what he does eat he wants a ton of it.

Now East, imagine if I attempted to go back to feeding him what I used to feed him, half as much and stuff he didnt like. How well do you think that would go over? He would be miserable and starve. Well, if you have a kid you would understand that wouldnt fly at all.

Now back to the topic. You think that what the Middle East did a hundred years ago will apease todays modern populace thats many times the size? Nope, not going to work. Find me one nation that has nothing to trade or sell that isnt third world. Just one.

Originally posted by skippytjc
And thats YOUR opinion.

That is my opinion based on actually having BEEN THERE, knowing them and studying their history. So hey - go figure.

Once the oil money is gone, you think sheep herding and trading with OTHER Middle Eastern countries will be enough in todays age?

by Skippy: You are trying to make an argument based on what WAS, not what IS.

That is what they are doing TO THIS DAY. TODAY. Present tense. What don't you understant about that?

Again, your view is based on your western media-induced opinion, never having actually been there yourself - by your own admission.

You don't understand that region at all, my friend. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Your ideas are simply and obviously based on western media-induced fallacies, as I mentioned above. Non-reality. Take your western hat off and get your mind around their reality, their culture, their perspective.

They want that oil money as much as the world wants the oil. No matter what they did in the past, they cannot support themselves in that manor anymore.

The rest of your comments aren't even worth commenting on b/c they are not based in TODAY's Middle Eastern reality. They are not based on fact or on experience. It's merely what you wish to believe.

See how far those views get you in the real world (of foreign policy).

I dont need to udnerstand thier history to know how today works. You can revel in your personal experience all you want, but the business side of this you apparently know nothing.

They DO NOT exist today doing things the old way. As a nation that is. You see sheep herders. well ok, some people still do things the old way. But the nation itself cannot exist that way, and thats what you are missing.

If they have nothing to trade, then they will dry up into a third world state, as all nations that have nothing do.

Lets have this talk again 20 years from now when these nations income starts to fall. To see them scramble to redifine themselves in the world of trade. Lets see the populations measured in the many 10's of millions per nation try to survive trading livestock with eachother.

You will see. Its simple economics, the history of these people have nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by skippytjc
My argument has nothing to do with trust or what other nations have done to the region in the past (or present). Once the oil demand is gone im certain you wont see any foriegn wars in the region as well. I bet you wont dissagree with that prediction.

I'm afriad it does, you see when you say "they will need to make friends" I was pointing out that the big 3 have done much to hhurt them...why should they make friends with someone they dont trust?
I'll post the rest of my reply after I calm down and find that form of mine...grr stupid form

Originally posted by skippytjc
I dont need to udnerstand thier history to know how today works.

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

No comment on the rest. There's no point. You only believe what you want to believe. Based on nothing, no less!

Its very interesting to read around the post here and see the hatred and bias when people is from other races and another religious background.

For those that think that the middle east is nothing but oil, I will remind you that they have been around surviving in their “dry sand” before than any other civilization was even here.

For those that keep demonizing the “Arabs” is funny that a lot of you have never been in their lands and has never shared a meal with any of them.

They have the right to protect their lands from any invasions after all they have been invaded through history over and over again.

They have the right to keep their traditions and their religious believes just because they are not Christians that doesn’t make them and all of them evil killers.

Learn history and learn who was in this world before any of us, before you pass judgement on what you don’t know and don’t understand.

Denied Ignorance.

My husband spend 8 month as a Marine around this people and he learned to respect their traditions in order to have his respected.

Something that the “Arab haters” will never understand what that means because after all most here don’t even respect the opinions of your own fellow Americans.

What a pity.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

No comment on the rest. There's no point. You only believe what you want to believe. Based on nothing, no less!

Well then, thats your opinion. Ill leave it at this, if your going to leave it at that:

Lets just assume Im right and your wrong and drop it. OK?











[edit on 28-4-2005 by skippytjc]

I need to post some things here, after reading some of this stuff.

#1 I dont hate Arabs. I actualy dont hate anybody.
#2 I dont agree with, or like the Iraq war.
#3 I dont think all people of Islamic belief are terrorists
#4 I am certain that the vast majority of Arabs are good people.
#5 I know some of the most intelligent people in the world have come from the Middle east.

But, having said these things, I will state this:

#1 Oil is all they have that the world wants. Period. I dont imply that oil defines them as people.
#2 In todays time and age, the "old" ways dont work. Are there people in the region who still to this day live a simple, happy life like times of old? Of course! But the region as a whole cannot survive this way. Period.
#3 Although the East Coast Kid is content with his little "repeating history" quote as his answer to my comments, it does not change that today oil is the only thing they have to trade with. The world simply doesnt work the way it used to before oil. And history cannot change that.
#4 The fact that I think that the Arab oil countries need to work on thier foriegn relationships is not an insult on Arabs. If they dont, they will suffer for it when oil is no longer in demand. Pure business.


No oil = no money. No money = poor starving people. Unless sand becomes imensly valuable, then the people of the Middle east need to figure out something fast. Because trading sheep with Syria wont cut it..

From the article:

Arabs are beginning to question the wisdom of this al Qaeda "jihad" against the rest of the world. People throughout the Arab world cheered as pictures of the burning towers appeared on their TV sets on September 11. Here was an Arab accomplishment.

This statemement is so utterly wrong and racist.

First of all, to generalize and say that Arabs "cheered" is a gross misrepresentation. Some probably did, just as some non-Arabs cheered.

Second of all, to imply that all Arabs follow Osama Bin Laden is an outright lie. It's nothing more than racist propaganda.

Third, to call 9/11 an "Arab Accomplishment" is the same as saying that the Holocaust or Shoah was an accomplishment of western civilization, or that the OKC bomb was an accomplishment of Scottish Americans (McVeigh being of Scottish decent). See how ridiculous it sounds?

The vast majority or Arabs had nothing to do with 9/11 and felt horrible about it.

Originally posted by skippytjc
My argument has nothing to do with trust or what other nations have done to the region in the past (or present). Once the oil demand is gone im certain you wont see any foriegn wars in the region as well. I bet you wont dissagree with that prediction.

My whole argument is based on what the region would need to sustain any resemblance of a modern society. That requires cash and lots of it. I am betting that people in the region have no interest going to a primative or poor way of life. And thats why I think they need to make buds with nations that have a better industrial or export footing like the USA, Russia, and China.

Look at the Sudan or Somalia. These are nations that have nothing of value to export, and barely can produce what it takes to feed its people. The only difference between these two regions is oil, thats it. Take away the Middle Easts oil and we have more Sudans and Somalia's.

One thing for sure - they won't have the massive amounts of cash to fund terrorism like they do today. Not that it matters, because once the oil dries up, they won't be much more than neighbood thugs anyway.

Islam is part of the problem. In Islam it put's christians and jew's as the enemy.
So when young arab are raised, they are raised to lookup on jews and christians as bad people. But Muslims themselves like to judge, but never lookup themselves. IF they did, they would realize that their culture and religion has done far worse, then what jews or christian's have done to them.

I call it arab arrogance. Arab pride, arab boastfulness. They can't stand to be strain of judean religion. So they created their own.

If islam has never come to be. Their would of been no speration, a dislike of jews and christian's. No Islamic union. No bad image of christians or jews.

Islam is like a person you urge with, but only see's your bad deed's, but can;t see it's own.

EG christian crusades : Was 1/10 the size of the islamic jihad, that almost hit france pasis, and rome.

The land of judea, they know it was ruled by jews, but can't stand teh fact of the jew's controling it. In order words, they like to take something, and never give it back.

It's this mentality, the koran gives the arabs, that makes muslim despise christian's.

The truth I could easily say that about christianity....or dont you remember all the burnings and the crusades?

Originally posted by devilwasp
The truth I could easily say that about christianity....or dont you remember all the burnings and the crusades?

O great! Nothing like point out the failures that people made a thousand years ago to side-step responsibility today. It's true that Germany once bombed England as well, but should we pull that out of the hat in every EU negotiation? I think it's best to focus more on what we can do now.

Originally posted by dbates

O great! Nothing like point out the failures that people made a thousand years ago to side-step responsibility today.

Who's side stepping?
I'm not.
I am just pointing out that it is not the "worst" as it is portrayed..

It's true that Germany once bombed England as well, but should we pull that out of the hat in every EU negotiation?

Yeah mabye you should or mabye when scotsmen invented concentration camps?
Or when we executed civilians?
Or bombed civilians?
Also they did bomb the UK not just england..

I think it's best to focus more on what we can do now.

Yeah that is a good idea, but the past can teach us much of the future.
If we dont learn from past mistakes we will repeat them...

Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

No comment on the rest. There's no point. You only believe what you want to believe. Based on nothing, no less!

Well then, thats your opinion. Ill leave it at this, if your going to leave it at that:

Lets just assume Im right and your wrong and drop it. OK?
[edit on 28-4-2005 by skippytjc]

Let's see, I've actually spent time in the mideast. (That's called REAL experience.)

You havn't; therefore you're talking out of your A double S.

Pretty simple.

You have voted marg6043 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Marg's husband's experience is no small thing, either. He's career and she knows what she's talking about.