Arabs are now realising they are in deep trouble

Originally posted by centurion1211
Just seeking a level playing field here.

I don't understand. You don't think his post deserves a Way Above award but you thought you'd give him one anyway just because you are "seeking a level playing field"? For what? Awards?

Nothing against his post, but your voting logic seems flawed.



[edit on 23-4-2005 by cargo]

Originally posted by Chakotay
That is so wrong.

To avoid the one-line response penalty, I shall elaborate.

You sound like the Emperor from Star Wars talking to Luke Skywalker.

There have been religions that baked children in clay pots. There have been religions that kill unbelievers (oops, I used the past tense).

Things like that are bad. Sure its just my opinion. But you know in your heart that I am right.

There are good things in religion. Like chanting non-words a capella. Very beautiful.

Life is often about absolute zeros and absolute ones (ask any computer).

What about the use of cristianity in WW1?
It helped the allies win the war.
Look there is no real black and white because frankly life is grey, this is because your interpeting it as grey.
Its all about interpretation and opinion.

Originally posted by the_oleneo
When an American visiting and traveling in an Arabian country, he or she have to watch what they say about the certain aspects of the Arabian/Islamic culture that one might find repulsive or shocking. Results: Freedom of speech is very limited, thought is controlled by "sensitivity indoctrination" and attitude/behavior is thoroughly scrutinized by the Arabic hosts.

When an Arab visiting and traveling in the United States, he is free to do anything, anything to say freely and have no cultural or prejudicial restraints with respect to Western cultures and values due to the tolerance of free speech and a relaxed democratic atmosphere. His free speech, behavior/attitude and thought are anything goes.

Incorrect I am afraid, If I walked up to say the DC war memorial and shouted and spat at the gravesstones then I would be severely beaten.
If I walked down to ground zero and spat onto the ground proclaiming the tactics used where honourable then I would most liekly be beaten.
In every country, every town and in every house. There is a topic that is "touchy" say the wrong thing and you will insult someone.


Which country you wanted to live? Think about that.

Originally posted by centurion1211
You have voted the_oleneo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Just seeking a level playing field here.

If we ever need your "refereeing skills we'll give you call...

It seems like we have a lot of people twisting themselves into logical pretzels to try and prove how politically correct and enlightened they are. One person (devilwasp) even naively posted that several terrorist attacks wouldn't be too bad. Can't get much more elitist in your views than that (what if the victim was you or someone in your family?). But while you're holding that pose, some (fill in the name of the group) extremist comes up and cuts off your heads - as a way of thanking you and acknowledging your wisdom, no doubt.

[edit on 4/23/2005 by centurion1211]

Tell me can say 7 terrorists armed with say 25 kiloton nukes do much damage to the USA?
No, the country is too large it would take a larger ammount of weapons to bring it down.
I am looking at it from a view unbiased opinion, its not pretty or nice but it is a fact.
If my family was in the zone then I would try and save them but accept the fact that the level of damage fom several suicide bombers could not bring down my country and also as the number of people and bombs increase then so does the chance it will be discovered.
Its not elitetists simply logic, can 4 nuclear weapons bring down the US?
Not likely.
Mabye the IRA might kill me after all , they have lovely up to date weapons thanks to your country but hey I hold no grudge.
I dont see where you were going with the "cutting my head off bit" but I think your trying to tempt me into a flame war.

Originally posted by the_oleneo
When an American visiting and traveling in an Arabian country, he or she have to watch what they say about the certain aspects of the Arabian/Islamic culture that one might find repulsive or shocking. Results: Freedom of speech is very limited, thought is controlled by "sensitivity indoctrination" and attitude/behavior is thoroughly scrutinized by the Arabic hosts.

When an Arab visiting and traveling in the United States, he is free to do anything, anything to say freely and have no cultural or prejudicial restraints with respect to Western cultures and values due to the tolerance of free speech and a relaxed democratic atmosphere. His free speech, behavior/attitude and thought are anything goes.

Which country you wanted to live? Think about that.

Yes what wrong with respecting their customs its their country they can be a very relgious ppl. Where as in America/resto f world you cannot truely say that.

In another point if they come to America and do as they plz say what they plz isnt that respecting your laws.......Or is freedom of speach and to do whatever you like as long as it is within the law only for an American/rest of the world sort of thing?

The problem with some ppl here is they take what they have been brought up with, The laws in their country and think every country should obide by them. Our countries allow for freedom of speach to do what we like as long as is legal so when they come across they are abiding by your laws.......Ive yet to hear of them taking their laws across the see and going for public death penalties yet.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by minority2000uk]

Getting back to the original subject... I can see one group of Arabs possibly being in trouble. That would be the Saudi royal family. The reason their rule might be in trouble is because they have profited obscenely off the country's oil while doing absolutely nothing at all to help alleviate the poverty of so many of its citizens. (Most of those would be near cities as opposed to its nomadic peoples.) Saudis also see the House of Saud as being hypocrits of the highest order, jetting off to Europe and America to indulge in all that is unholy while at home their citizens are held to the strictest of religious standards.

Also, the idea of allowing the infidels (westerners) into their kingdom for profit and warfare is an abomination to so many of them. Saudi, to the world's muslims, is the holy of holies.

As far as the comments regarding the difference between how we are supposed to act over there and how they act over here.. well.. it is the way it is, like it or not. Not every Arab comes over here and disses us; some do. They should thank Allah that in our society they are free to make criticisms without fearing for their physical safety - from our authorities anyway. When one goes to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, he/she is advised on how to behave and what not to say for good reason: everyone there is subject to their laws, no ands, ifs or buts (that goes for military members). Anyone who starts getting out of line or mouthing off will be dealt with according to the Shar'ia law. In many cases, that means execution on Friday afternoon for all to see. You go there, you accept it. Or maybe you don't leave, period. Personally, I had no problem with it. To each (country) his own. I'm glad I got to see and experience Arabia; but it made me love my country 1000 times more. So, its all good.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
No raciest comments were used..I simply stated they are selfish and self-centered and you call that a "Raciest comment"? So much for honest debate huh?

I didn't say you can't be a racist. By all means, go ahead. But you will get warnings for it. When you ascribe propensities and sterotypes to a group of people as being inherent and biological, you are, de facto making a racist statement. For example
"White people can't dance".

Thats racist.
"Whites tend to be part of a culture that does not value dancing abilities highly, and as such people in that cutlure tend to not dance well"
Not racist.

"Arabs are selfish"
Racist.
"Jews are Greedy"
Racist.
"Jewish culture tends to value wealth and sucess highly"
Not racist.
"Arabic society does not value charity and altruism highly"
Not racist.

Technically we can talk about how any term like 'arabic society' is racist, since its still defining it based on an 'ethnic/biological' identity, but I don't think that that is strictly true, since a guy from africa can be part of so called 'white american culture'. IE the English Language is not restricted to natives of brittain.

I am surprised that this should be controversial.

ve heard Americans called far worse in these very forums

Point it out to me. I will not tolerate any biological or political group being slandered by bigotry or racism.
[uote]but I better not critic any Muslim countries. No, that would be Raciest.
'Arabic' is not a muslim country. Arabic is an ethnic indicator primarily (though, agian, the english language is not restricted to Angles).

We're running outta time!! 700 years ago, a handful of radical Christians were not cabable of killing thousands, but in this day and age, several Islamic suicide bombers with WMD can take out entire cities.....the stakes are much larger and the times far more dangerous.

Indeed, in the european dark ages, the worst that woudl happen was an inquisition and a crusdade. Which is bad certainly, but nothing compared to what can happen now. As, well, we've seen. Bin ladin et al are Crusdaders, simply in the modern age. THeywant to, literally, reclaim their holy land, and in doing so are ignorantly destroying all sorts of things around them.

American Mad Man
On this message board you can't criticise anyone except Americans without getting some huge backlash.

That's complete BS. Whenever anyone is critical about anything, there are more than enough 'offended' people to result in backlash. Why shouldn't people stand up for arabs when they are slandered, any more than people standing up for americans when they are slandered???

Off_the_Street
It’s pretty obvious that Maximus is attacking the Arabs because of their culture, not their DNA.

If it is obvious, then I do not see it in my obtuseness. I saw nothing of it being a social trait. "Arabs are selfish", "Jews are greedy" "Caucasians are the Devil". They seem to be equal statements.

And I found this hideous chauvinism, insisting that we respected their culture while they trashed ours in return, to be the norm for the people I worked with, which included Saudis, Kuwaitis, and citizens of the Emirates.

Indeed, its rather silly, and in a sense, Paternalism, which is what that is, is precisely the most racist sorts of things. 'The White Man's Burden' and all.

Their DNA is the same as that of the Iraqis, Syrians, and probably the Egyptians; so even Nygdan couldn't consider such an analysis racist.

On this I am personally confused. "Saudis" are a nationality, Saud being the royal dynasty that rules part of Arabia, hence Saudi Arabia, sort of like Jacobite England, Napoleonic France. Heck, France is derived from the Franks, but when one talks about 'the French" one isn't necessarily talking about the ethno-cultural division that is known as 'the franks'. "Arabs" on the other hand, are equivalent to 'the germans'. If someone said 'the germans are an uncreative, stodgy, and thick-headed race', well, it'd be racist no? Its particularly vexing, because so many states are tangled up with ethnic identities. Of course, one can live in austria, or even denmark and the netherlands, and be a 'german'.
IOW, I would, infact, have to warn you, ots, if you had said it about the arabs, but saudis is sufficiently vague, in my understanding, to be read as refering to 'citizens of saudi arabia', which is not an ethnicity/race/etc.

I had thought that ATS put denying ignorance above out-of-control guilt-ridden political correctness

I was certianly not motivated by 'pc'ness. It read, clearly to me, as a racist comment. If he had said "Hispanics are lazy", it'd be racist, no? On the other hand, one could talk about Puritan work ethics versus latin-american work ethics, and make similar conclusions (tho be incorrect) without being racist.

"Why shouldn't people stand up for arabs when they are slandered, any more than people standing up for americans when they are slandered???"

well its not like their civilian poplation goes blowing people up in foreign countries constantly ttargetting civilians, or their people do parades, rallies, etc for the sole purpose of supporting these terrorists, or to proclaim their desire to see other countries destroyed, maybe if they showed that they didnt support such things on a regular basis, people might not see them in that way, oh no thats racist to think they might actually support terrorism, i mean the attitude towards war in the west is obviously against with massive protests in any war...yet arab-muslims say nothing when their people attack us or anyone else, sure a few western and a few arab muslim leaders apologise and condemn but not their people, not ever, yet our people condemn violence very often.

Originally posted by deltaboy
im glad many Arabs neither support nor sypathize with Al Qaeda, they may hate America for invasion of Iraq and supporting Israel but they aint joining Al Qaeda's jihad enmasse.

There are over a billion muslims. If only .005% joined groups such as HAMAS and was serious business then you have - 50,000 new suicide bombers world wide. When they die they are showered with gifts and made heroes. For every holy warrior martyred and celebrated two or three take his place. War always breeds recruits whether forced or voluntary.

Overly pedantic perhaps - but, as this thread has, in parts, managed to focus on history, might it be worth reminding ourselves that the term 'Dark Ages' is either applied to the period of European history between the 5th and 8th or 9th centuries, or more recently - to include the majority of the 'middle ages' too, upto around the 14th century: within which timeframe - would include both the Christian crusades and the Islamic conquests / settlements in Iberia.

As ever, Wikipedia has a useful summary.

Originally posted by namehere
"Why shouldn't people stand up for arabs when they are slandered, any more than people standing up for americans when they are slandered???"

well its not like their civilian poplation goes blowing people up in foreign countries constantly ttargetting civilians,

And what difference does that make? The actions of some, even the majority, of ethnic arabs can not be extended to all arabs. Hell, most arabs don't do anything of the sort either.

...yet arab-muslims say nothing when their people attack us or anyone else, sure a few western and a few arab muslim leaders apologise and condemn but not their people, not ever

What are you talking about? I constantly notice muslims (not simply arabs) in the media who are denouncing these attacks. The mullahs in spain issued fatwas against bin ladin himself. THere are political and public groups of muslims all over the place who denounce these things.

Why the heck should these people constantly have their patriotism and humanity questioned? How many denouncements is enough? They aren't under any obligation to dennounce any of it. When a christian psycho-killer murders lots of people, I don't see christians taking to the streets saying its not part of christianity. People just say 'that guy's a sick criminal'. Andrea yates murdered her children, so did a couple of other women recently, because god told her too. I don't recall seeing a mass movement of christians and jews comming out and saying 'in our book, yes, god orders abraham to kill his kid and he agrees, so technically we're required to do that, but we denounce it, etc etc'. Heck, I don't recall seeing anyone demanding that women 'renounce' this woman. 'White people' aren't held accountable for her actions, or Ken Lays, or anyone elses, why should arabs or any other ethnicity?

[edit on 25-4-2005 by Nygdan]

We seem to lose track of the fact that terrorists come in all colors and from all countries. Arabs have been totally stereotyped as terrorists in the USA. (I can't speak for other western countries.) Since the cold war is no more, it is more than convenient for the masters of war.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
We seem to lose track of the fact that terrorists come in all colors and from all countries. Arabs have been totally stereotyped as terrorists in the USA. (I can't speak for other western countries.) Since the cold war is no more, it is more than convenient for the masters of war.

That's totally right in the cold war terrorists were members of extreme leftist movements such as the Red brigade...

P.S they have made some attacks in that era like the head of west germany's bank... and the method used is quite ingenious

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by skippytjc
They are in deep trouble.

But for for another reason: Once the dependancy on oil is gone, the Middle East will dry up and waste away. Arab nations that have built thier wealth on oil will become the thrid world countries they really are. They export nothing tangible but oil.

This is projecting the western mentality onto the Arabs. It's dead wrong. And that is our problem. The big disconnect.

Arabs have lived on those lands from the beginning of time. The oil age is the blink of an eye compared to the thousands of years they have dwelt on those lands. They are tribal. They are shepherds and farmers. They are survivors. When the oil runs out and the western world doesn't have a pot to piss in, I assure you, the Arabs will be doing just fine.

Sure.....Sure they will be just fine. You arent looking at the big picture. They thrived there for thousands of years when oil meant nothing. Oil was for lamps, not the modern day machines of life. In todays time, oil, or energy rather, is everything. If they export nothing that the world wants, how will they support themselves? With their luciuous farm land? There is none! With thier huge fishing industries? Nope, dont got' none of that either. High tech? Please.

Once oil is gone, or at least the demand is near zero, the Middle East will pull back into thier own little worlds and scrape by at near third world levels of humanity. You think that the oil rich families of these nations will embrace the fallout of the oil industry?

I will repeat myself: Middle East countires, if they are smart and looking at the big picture, better start figuring out ways of making the world powers happy right now. Because thier day in demand is numbered.

Ill toss out this last statement: How much will the world care about what happens in the Middle East once the oil is gone? Zilch. You will see Sally Struthers infomercials begging for money for Middle Eastern relief.

Tham, durn a-rabs are in trouble!!! With the "yoo-nighted stets of uh-merikah" Were gonnah blow them to kinkdom come!!

When will Arabs realise that the rest of the world is paying attention to their every move? Everything that goes on in these countries we seem to constantly post over here on ATS. A few counties are deciding that maybe the Western infidel isn't so bad. Look at Yemen and the city of Dubai. They are gearing up to build some spectacular pieces of archetecture for the simple purpose of driving in tourist, not from other countries, but from Europe, Japan, and the US. "If we can't continue to blame them for our problems and blow them up, why not just take their money with exotic hotels as we will surely see a dramatic decrease in oil production and an advancement in the hydrogen cell and no longer be able to bully them with oil production." This needs to be their thinking. That is for Arabs in the middle east, the ones living here in America are cool by my standards.

Originally posted by skippytjc
Sure.....Sure they will be just fine. You arent looking at the big picture. They thrived there for thousands of years when oil meant nothing. Oil was for lamps, not the modern day machines of life. In todays time, oil, or energy rather, is everything. If they export nothing that the world wants, how will they support themselves? With their luciuous farm land? There is none! With thier huge fishing industries? Nope, dont got' none of that either. High tech? Please.

What do you base your views and comments on? What is your experience with the middle east and the Arab peoples? Please enlighten us.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
What do you base your views and comments on? What is your experience with the middle east and the Arab peoples? Please enlighten us.

FACT: The Middle East exports NOTHING that can sustain their needs other than oil. What do I need to understand about Middle Eastern culture to understand how this will affect them?

The Middle East will dry up and wilt once the demand for oil goes away. And that day is coming sooner rather than later.

I don’t need to study Arab history to know the cause and effect of diminishing need for oil.

I will make a prediction:

In the next 5 years, the cost of fuel in the USA will rocket out of control. The public will alter its buying habits as a result thus forcing big business to change (its already happening btw). Once big business is on the wagon, oils days as the premier source of fuel are numbered.

Within the next 20 years (im guessing 10-15), due to intense focus by big business and the government, the USA will develop a new replacement source of power that will replace 90% of the US's dependency on oil. Once this happens, the rest of the world will bend over backwards for this new technology. Of course the USA will make the tech available to its friends and allies. Once this happens, the Middle East is finished a modern society.

At this point immigration FROM the region will hit all time highs. The educated of the region will leave for better opportunities elsewhere. In effect, the Middle East will not have the money or export demand to sustain its needs.

Write all this down East, put in a box somewhere. Make a reminder to open it and read this 20 years from now. I am right and this will happen.

Skippy, your just poisting your opinion.
You havent visted the future nethier do you know what will happen, only what might happen.

It is just my opinion. I cant argue that. But it is a fact that the Middle East currently exports nothing significant enough to sustain themselves other than oil. And IF the major consumers in the world replace that need, the Middle East will suffer AMAZING finacial loss. Thats not opinion, thats all fact.

So, although my predictions are my own opinion, its based on solid as granite facts.

They will adapt or die. Can they adapt? Im betting no (my opinion again). Not without anything to export they cant.

Sooo...The Middle East better start making some strong friends with the big three right now, because thats thier meal ticket once the oil is no longer needed...(more of my opinion)