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How much proof do we need before we believe?

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posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Why don't the aliens just plop themselves down in the middle of the county fairgrounds and have an open house? Why are the only encounters ones where there is no physical evidence that can be put on display for all of us to see?




posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I find it very difficult to believe that every single occurence of these visits have been covered up by the "government". It just doesn't add up.

Sooner or later there will have to be an "alien" visit that is documented and broadast to the world without government interference before I would believe it, though.


Official people just have to "say" that the evidence either does not prove anything, or that it proves something else instead, and the cover-up easily occurs in people's minds.

The evidence is disguised right before your eyes.

People believe something, but what they believe is being decided for them. This is all about what goes on with humans, and has little to do with the aliens at all.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Why don't the aliens just plop themselves down in the middle of the county fairgrounds and have an open house?


The alien races show themselves increasingly to humans. Still, the humans take this as further proof of validity of the rampant disinformation, which has a counterproductive affect instead. Hardly anybody in the publics would believe what the alien races say for themselves yet. Upon seeing them so openly now, the people would only believe what Earth powers tell them about the alien races. Same as now.


Why are the only encounters ones where there is no physical evidence that can be put on display for all of us to see?


Individual humans who have alien encounters are not allowed evidence by the aliens for their claims, because that evidence, to have it in hand, would put them in direct danger from the powers on Earth who are against the aliens and true information about them.

Evidence of visitation is placed instead all over Earth, and all throughout our history, for all to see.

Soon enough of us will figure it out, despite what is being dictated to us. When the time is right and the outcome can be productive enough, the alien races will show themselves openly to all, and open a diplomatic relationship with our world through one nation.

This is what I understand from the alien races.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 07:59 PM
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I think the best 'reveal' of all would be the Super Bowl in the US or World Cup soccer in Europe. Why? Numerous live cameras from various agencies and countries, and a huge group of observers. Most with camera cell phones. The best part is, since there is a great number of cameras and feeds, the government would have a hell of a time interrupting things. Even if they wanted to pull the plug, all those uplinks have battery power. The cat would definitely be out of the bag.

Of course, if the mothership put down mid-game, most would think it was the half-time show. However, once the doors opened and a spindly-looking being emerged, well, then, that's when the audience would collectively lose their sh17.

If I am fortunate enough to live long enough to see the truth come out (I'm 34) then I would really have to hand it to the U.S. govenrment. They managed to keep an open secret off the agenda and marginalized, despite it being the greatest event in history. It would be their most impressive piece of
counter-intelligence (or whatever you call a coverup of this magnitude).



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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What we need is a reliable nation who is strong enough to stand up against the opposing nations, to first accept contact for what it is from the alien races, and then to represent it to the rest of the world with integrity.

If everybody just suddenly sees the alien races, that is not going to ensure true information about them for all.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:00 PM
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Sometimes you have to follow books and stuff jsobecky. Better than saying type things not at all understood.

Else, read the experienced views on this network would be my thoughts..

Dallas



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 11:32 PM
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I think that a lot of folks are missing the whole point of "holding out". I used to be a dyed in the wool believer and fully expected the aliens to pop out any moment and declare their reality... I lived for that day. Adamski was one of my personal heroes and soooo lucky to have been on flying saucers, etc. etc. etc. I am not stupid, not by any means, nor am I trying to keep the truth from being there. I do want to believe.

Then I got to really looking around and listening to much of what was passing for "proof" and "evidence" at the time, and still does. It is always someone who has received "channeled" information or receives psychic emanations from a different galaxy, or a higher plane, or heaven, or what have you. Or they are in contact with a race of demons, fallen angels, or Lizard people, who are here to take over the Earth in some nebulous, never quite clear fashion. Or they are like Lazaar (spelling?), who has a bit of evidence, not proof exactly, that he may have worked at Area 51, but has credentials, which do not stand up to intense scrutiny. Something is something and not anything else. Proof is proof and nothing else. Proof isn't an "almost" type of thing. It either is or it ain't. If it is, it is proof, if it ain't, it ain't squat.

Many of the people (sombunall as Robert Anton Wilson suggests), who are involved in the move to validate UFOs and aliens, have dubious backgrounds, or evidence of psychological issues, or just a history of flim-flammery. Or, the evidence they are purporting to put forth is generally full of holes, at least to the extent that there can be reasonable doubt. The evidence put forth by the presentable UFOlogists

I, too, have seen things in the sky that I can not explain. Things that I "know" are not within the capabilities of the current level of technology, at least as I understand it. However, that does not mean that it is not, and that certainly is not any proof, or even evidence that there are aliens running amuk in the sky.

Because someone says something that even remotely agrees with what I want to believe does not make it so. It may very well indicate, in my mind, that the presenter is a person of brilliance, and astounding intellect, but that does not demonstrate proof or even evidence of anything. (There is a very distinct difference between evidence and proof). Further, the direct evidence or proof of another person's brilliance and aptitude is directly related to how much s/he agrees with your philosophy.

This issue of UFOs is an emotional one, generally, and until there is iron clad proof that the Unidentified Flying Objects are something other than evidence, it will not matter.

Even if every government were to step up to the plate and admit that they have had contact with Aliens, what difference would it make? No matter
what anyone says, as long as the aliens don't present themselves, the rest is irrelevent.

And so... I don't worry nearly as much as I used to about whether aliens are really here. And in the greater scheme of things... what does it matter? They haven't invaded or taken over ... They do not add anything (Don't talk about all that supposed back-engineering of alien technology, as there is no proof of that either) to our society or technology. And haven't troubled with us to the point to where they are a plus to us, our societies, or our cultures.

But I hang here on ATS, in areas where I am probably less than welcome, just in case that evidence should turn to proof and present itself.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 11:40 PM
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You have voted sigung86 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


That was very well put, better than I was able to say it. But then again I'm a man of few words most of the time.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 04:00 AM
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I will believe when instead of just having evidence, there is PROOF. Hard, solid evidence, something that gets put in respected journals, scientists pouring over all the data. Even better still, marvin the martian hopping on prime time tv for an interview with all the mainstream news stations, showing where he came from, showing photos, displaying his spacecraft, maybe explaining in lamens terms how it works.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by LordGoofus
I will believe when instead of just having evidence, there is PROOF. Hard, solid evidence, something that gets put in respected journals, scientists pouring over all the data. Even better still, marvin the martian hopping on prime time tv for an interview with all the mainstream news stations, showing where he came from, showing photos, displaying his spacecraft, maybe explaining in lamens terms how it works.



You can only decide fact or fiction when it is up close and personnel.The one thing l was looking for when l joined this site was to read peoples personnel accounts of there experiances.Sadly this is one fault of this site that there are too many people that have a wealth of knowledge based not on there life but on there daily use of the net.Gazrok is a fine example he is a huge contributor on this site and can be found writing on most if not all sections within ATS.Very well written and knowledgable but very little is personnel and is obvious that a great deal if not all of it is gained from internet reasearch.Is there anything wrong with that? well yes as it can not be proved or validated.
The best way to get knowledge is to get of your butts switch of the pc and travel either on your own or join groups.Some of my best experiances have been gained in old houses with a small group of people looking for evidence of spirits.It`s great fun and far more addictive that ATS or the net could ever hope to be.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 06:21 AM
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I am often asking myself this question. How much proof do we need before we believe?


Heres what it will take for me to believe.
Geniune proof and by that I dont mean
Photoshoped photos of aliens and there craft.
Footage taken from movies and then passed off as alien videos
people posting fake storys on the net and selling them to the media
fake documents

Logic would suggest 1 or two governments might cover up aliens but I doubt the entire globle would cover up the existance of aliens.
Why dont aliens introduce them selvs to the general population ? And Im not talking about abductions



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by DCFusion
I am often asking myself this question. How much proof do we need before we believe? We have photographs and video that have held up under serious scrutiny, we have eye witness testimony from people who appear to be upstanding citizens and appear to have no reason to fabricate a story. So what would be the one thing or things that would make people believe something? Would we actually need an alien craft to land on the front lawn of the White House before doznes of news outlets?


for most of the non believers to see the light we would need a ufo to land



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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xpert11

You make very good points here and I support your determination not to believe anything until you see proof for yourself. But I will use some of your comments to make an important point of my own from my own experience.


people posting fake storys on the net and selling them to the media


Many of us are telling the exact honest truth, and some of us actually have advanced contact and a very good grasp of what is happening to us and the world. We learn about the aliens from the aliens, not from other humans, so we don't make too many mistakes in our perception of what we are experiencing. But your comment here, which is very common in most people's thinking, sells us ALL short. You lump us all together with all the professionally generated disinformation as well as all the silly channeling liars just trying to get the most attention within their spiritual and ufo groups. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Telepathy is the Universal way of communication. Unique biology race to race makes physical-to-physical contact and audible, vocal communication almost impossible between all races. The technologies and natural abilities of the advanced races to effect the kind of contact that we humans can perceive usually only further exasperates our confusion. Don't confuse normal telepathy with actual channeling, and don't confuse natural abilities of spiritual contact out of body to be ghosts or demons, and don't confuse the prevalent spiritual aspects of contact with all the liars across the Internet who are claiming to channel alien life. They think they are playing, but what they are actually doing to the aliens is a lot like what that lady just did to Wendy's by putting that finger in her Chili.


Logic would suggest 1 or two governments might cover up aliens but I doubt the entire globle would cover up the existance of aliens.
Why dont aliens introduce them selvs to the general population ? And Im not talking about abductions


The aliens introduce themselves to the public all of the time, both by mass sightings of crafts and personally to individuals. But you will not believe any of those stories when you hear them because your thinking is conditioned against that. Think about the kinds of methods your thinking is conditioned with the prejudice that enables us ordinary folks to kill other people and give our own lives and our children's lives in wars between countries. If that sounds ridiculous, think instead of what it would be like for you and me if all our leaders announced across our Earth that killing is barbaric and no longer allowed, and that from now on all differences would be solved openly and peacefully. If we as a race are not ready for that yet, then that is for the same reasons we are not ready for the alien races yet. The other races have all done it- many of them never even had our kind of war and suffering.

The leading govts of the world run most of the world, and the rest of the nations are beholding to the leading nations by treaty, trading, economics, exchange programs, etc. The smaller nations who would be open to accept alien contact are in no position to go against the leading nations who oppose it. Only the leading govts know what they are doing to the aliens and to the individual humans who are making contact with the aliens. And only the leading govts know the true reasons and scope of their crimes for why they are doing this. The govts with the most to lose by the alien races helping us fix our major world problems, are the ones against the aliens. What they have to lose is what you know is most important to them- money and power generated on degeneration of our world and on the needless suffering of its people. The crimes are so deep now, that the govts can't even admit them. To welcome the alien races to help, would be that admission.

I don't mean to point a finger directly at you, so please understand me, but every individual has to rethink this problem. When somebody who actually knows what they are talking about keeps getting thrown away with all the rest of the information that is being put right in front of you, that is the exact way the propaganda is so successful. The disinformation campaign does not have to hide any evidence, it just has to keep you abundantly confused and suspicious of people like me.

I don't know everything about the aliens. And I don't know much about how govts operate, but I am a lifelong witness to the alien races and work with them progressively to learn about them. Many people on Earth work with alien life, and many of them are in professional positions throughout society and government, where they are not to be known for it yet, or they would be stopped. What I do is talk to people, especially individuals who have alien contact. I help them get to know their alien contacts so they can find out for themselves what they are like and what they are doing. Then they can decide if they want to work with alien life. That is why I speak publicly. Any one person who learns too much, or talks too much, becomes a target of the Earth powers who are against the aliens. Alien contact names the contactee a trader and a threat to national security. The alien races have to sneak in, and they have to spread information around through the publics. It is the ONLY way they can reach humanity past the opposing leading govts. And the efforts can only go as fast as the individual humans are willing to handle it.

You can't see the aliens for yourself yet, but you can see the shadows cast by all of their activity throughout history and humanity. As we become capable and intelligent to accept open contact from advanced races, instead our leaders tried to use it as part of their own agendas. This is when instead of getting answers, we have been given confusion and fear, playing on our natural ignorance, superstitious beliefs and desperation.

When the aliens openly show up, it's going to create entropy. Without a reasonable true sense of order about it on Earth, instead of what we have now, there will be nobody to help sort it out for "everybody" on Earth. Those in power will only want it fixed their own way similar to how they have things fixed now, and for the people to only know what they want to tell us.

THERE ARE NO ABDUCTIONS. At one time actual human abduction by alien life was rare and done by a few races, and it's been stopped, not by the govts, but by the other hundreds of visiting races. Yet, the stories are still exaggerated and perpetuated and mainlined through the whole UFO field, on every avenue of information to the public. ALL or ANY alien-human contact is stubbornly assumed to be abduction, in our minds.

As long as the people fear and refuse to trust the alien races, the (secret) govt can keep us where they want us, body and mind, and can run OUR world the way THEY want.

[edit on 4/23/2005 by EarthSister]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by sexygeek

for most of the non believers to see the light we would need a ufo to land


With a thousand lights or more, how does seeing an alien craft teach you how to choose the right light?

Seeing an alien craft only makes people more eager and willing to choose the wrong light, and then stubbornly defend it.

When enough people are truly educated about the alien races as the people they are and the intentions they have with our race, and can think independently and intelligently, we will be ready to accept the alien races and begin to open a diplomatic relationship with our local group of worlds.

To get truly educated, just look around for yourself and think for yourself. And if you have the opportunity to learn about the aliens from the aliens, take it.

[edit on 4/23/2005 by EarthSister]



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 02:00 AM
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jsobecky wrote:

"Why don't the aliens just plop themselves down in the middle of the county fairgrounds and have an open house? Why are the only encounters ones where there is no physical evidence that can be put on display for all of us to see? "

To do either would show a complete lack of respect for our own development. As a race we have always shown a lack of maturity, even the oldest and wisest among us hold childish beliefs. By childish I do not just mean wrong, I mean self-serving and self-centered. The impact of full contact with a race not from this Earth would have a massive and unpredictable effect on us.

Today perhaps the arguement can be made that the effect would be managable and would end up turning out alright, but the farther you go in the past the more often our reaction has been violent.

Proof is just too subjective, and relies in part on the person's ability to handle the reality of what they are seeing. It is rather telling that even if an unmistakable alien craft did indeed land at the Super Bowl, the next day the percentage of people who would believe it a hoax would be quite high.

And right now, any proof has to go against the 'common sense' and 'accepted wisdom' of the day which makes it even harder.


A.T
(-)



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 07:15 AM
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but very little is personnel and is obvious that a great deal if not all of it is gained from internet reasearch.Is there anything wrong with that? well yes as it can not be proved or validated.


True, it's sourced to internet sources, but still validated. For example I validated the LA incident in microfiche at the library, and even an e-mail to the LA Times archives office. In Roswell, I have a copy of the actual paper, so that's easy enough to verify, and the affidavits are corraborated by numerous books and UFOlogists, even though on a website. For the DC incident, I personally checked and validated facts again, such as the Marshall statement, etc. (released through FOIA and available to any).

This "validation" is exactly what I strive for in such posts, and the internet is simply one of the easiest tools available. Such content found though, on such research posts, is corraborated through other sources as well, listed as often as I could throughout the articles, and certainly available for anyone to verify such info through whatever means they wish..



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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It doesn't matter what might happen in the future. It doesn't matter how obnoxious or how publicised the event may be. There will always be someone to argue the validity of it, and because of that cause the event and the subject matter surrounding the event to be considered a "mystery" or it will be referred to as foreign or the beings will be.... genetic mutations... whatever these people can think of because when it all comes down to it. When someone dedicates their life to a specific belief commonly known as fact, and something happens which causes others to question this fact that such people have held so steadfastingly too. One will only sabatoge the evidence my any means possible, for example, giving it another source.(which supports the fact) in order to defend their belief system. Unfortunatley, most people cannot see beyond their own noses. They stubbornlly refuse. Which I think is a walking condradiction to ancient times. because isn't a commonly held belief of fact something that came about the very same way as this evidence of extra terresrial life forms comes today? Yes. The Holy Bible was created the same way yet it's okay to believe that as a fact. In fact one may be judged and/or alienated when they question the validity of that "fact".
In conclusion... I believe that because the appearance of an Alien life form existing may or most certainly will contradict the religion "we" now believe in. The general poplutation or the "norm" will refuse to see it as a fact... Ever. It is only by the disproofing of religion that we may begin to proove the existance of an alien life form.


That's just what i think.



posted on Apr, 24 2005 @ 03:49 PM
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Would YOU mistake these for aliens???


They take to us for idiots. Military have always the most stupid explanations to offer. Remember in the Varginha case during january 96, military said that what people believed to be an extraterrestrial was in fact a pregant dwarf woman escorted to the hospital.


[edit on 24/4/2005 by Musclor]



posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 07:27 AM
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To be frank, in order for people to believe, people have to be made aware. How would people be made aware?

A massive UFO/Alien incident, like the Belgian UFO wave, the Mexico City UFO Wave, the Chupacabra incident, except both involving encounters with UFOs and aliens and not in some obscure town, but in a place like Los Angeles or Seattle.

That will no doubt get EVERYBODY'S attention.



posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 10:39 PM
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Sad as it is, I think mass TV coverage by all the major media networks would undoubtedly get the attention on all enslaved humans.
Perhaps a slot on OPRAH with ET sitting down with handing souvenirs to the audience would cement the reality.
In which case - I am not holding my breath its going to happen in my lifetime.
If they 'come out' it will only confirm the the govts of the world are FOS and have been for many years - and then the govts will not be in a favourable position with the public...................... then let the games begin.



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