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NEWS: Gorbachev: The United States is Sick

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posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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hmm i didnt expect this topic to turn into a gorbachev bashing thread.... pretty sad actually.


Originally posted by Aelita
Yeah right!

Listen up:

Gorbachev is most inept, unsophisticated and unsuccessful politician of all time.


I certainly wouldnt call the effort he put into democratizing the USSR and the efforts he was making to fix a broken stalinist system inept nor unsophisticated, nor inept. He's a very sophisticated man, you would only have to read one of his many books to understand that. As for unsuccessful, I agree he was unsuccessful in his primary goal, which was to fix the broken socialist system. However he made great successes in bringing freedom and peace to Eastern Europe and the entire world. Nuclear arms reduction also is another great thing he done plus the continual reduction of soviet forces. He stopped nuclear testing in the soviet union even without trying to get the americans to do the same and he even offered reagan to dismantle all nukes in both countries alltogether, something reagan ofcourse refused.

The primary reason IMO that I believe Gorbachev failed is because his reforms couldnt keep up with the changes happening at soviet society. There was too much debate and opposition and due to the massive bureaucracy and sluggishly reacting economy trying to get anything done was remarkably hard. I remember him remarking once that when he was visiting a village he was asked by a man if he could do something about getting a huge pile of dirt off his property that had been dumped by construction workers there. This man couldnt get any of the local communist party officials to do it, the only way he got that mound moved was to go the general secretary himself!


His own buddies plotted against him in the coup of 1991, and he didn't have a slightest.
Hardliner reactionaries who were ultimately against the signing of Gorbachev's new agreement with the states. Quite a foolish move to make, because of that the USSR (or the new one gorbachev envisaged) does not exist anymore, Yeltsin got too much political power, the CIS treaty was signed and Gorbachev's office quickly became irrelevant.



Through the lack of competence, he allowed the breakup of the country.
Once again, I do not think it was because of a lack of competence on his side, more of the incompetence of the soviet system and the opposition he faced against hardliners, reactionaries and the demrossiya movement all tearing things apart.


His "perestroika" policies failed in that everything simply degenerated and went into collapse. It was not much of "reform" but a crisis. I'm not a big fan of the old times in the SU, but he handled it in the worst possible way.


once again I agree, things did collapse. But I believe it was because his reforms were not fast enough nor as far reaching due to the poor health of the soviet system and political opposition.


IMHO, his "standing" is this: zero.
He's a personal failure and anything that comes out of his mouth should go straight into the toilet.


And this is an interesting observation. The Russian people always love a strongman as leader, they loved stalin (at the time), they loved Yeltsin c. 1991 as the strongman who defeated the coup single handedly and they now love putin and his strongman stance against chechnya. I also believe you like a strongman as leader too and believe gorbachev betrayed your country for weakening it and its military power. It's interesting because many people from the east revile Gorbachev while many in the west think he was a hero.

But I would argue that the soviet system itself was weak, it was like something like a cancer in the system, any attempts by gorbachev to fix them were too slow, as soon as he tried to resolve one problem ten more cancers popped up and so forth.

I would blame stalinism and the reactionaries who kicked out khruschev who was a reformist more than gorbachev. The inaction and lack of reform during the brezhnev years plus the ridiculous military spending were far more responsible for the eventual destruction of the soviet system. They created an economy and a bureaucracy that were not upto meeting the necessary living standards required by the people and to remain with military power parity against the United States and the west.

Gorbachev was like a surgeon treating a person who has lung cancer for years of continuous smoking. Stalin got that body hooked smoking, Khruschev tried to wean them off it and Brezhnev just did nothing and let the body keep smoking, and gave it even more cigarettes to continue its habit.

My question is do you really think anyone could of done any better than Gorbachev????? I don't think so, I believe the soviet system was on its deathbed when he came to power, he tried to fix it but failed.

But at least he tried. And the greatest testament to the man is that it all ended relatively peacefully.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 22-4-2005 by drfunk]




posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by drfunk
hmm i didnt expect this topic to turn into a gorbachev bashing thread.... pretty sad actually.


Just for the record, I was bashing the accidental superpower, not Gorbachev. If the Russians try to kick you out of power, odds are you've done something right.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:25 AM
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it's okay, I just think some people have a wrong view about gorbachev and how this man had to of had the hardest job in the world, at least the political one. Calling Gorbachev a 'loser' I believe is disrespectful, because I believe he has knowledge and experiences that are unique and an insight that is useful. I find his books an excellent read and an excellent insight into what he had to go through, I recommend that any of you should pick one of them up
particularly his memoirs, which is my favourite political memoirs of all time (clintons were pathetic compared to his lol)

That aside though (seems everyone is attacking gorbachev's credibility) don't you guys at least think his statement holds some water??? it is pretty rich for a nation to ask for the disarming of nuclear weapons when they won't give them up themselves??

I'm pretty sure the US is against having another nation have the same sort of verification systems on its weapons programs that it wishes to place on other nations. If they've got nothing to hide, I believe they should do it and set a moral example to other nations.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 22-4-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:28 AM
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I didn't mean to imply Gorby is a "loser", he was part of a system that "lost".

I don't know if my comment triggered the character assassination that followed, but I have a lot of respect for the man, I just simply think when one's own nation is in dire straits of it's own, it's hard to criticize another...




Mr. Capitalist is called a socialist on a conspiracy forum- this is rich indeed.


I'm supposing it's more of a jab to "Hanoi Jane"



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
I didn't mean to imply Gorby is a "loser", he was part of a system that "lost".

I don't know if my comment triggered the character assassination that followed, but I have a lot of respect for the man, I just simply think when one's own nation is in dire straits of it's own, it's hard to criticize another...




Mr. Capitalist is called a socialist on a conspiracy forum- this is rich indeed.


I'm supposing it's more of a jab to "Hanoi Jane"



lol I understand mate, thanks for clarification
I agree the system was lost, but sometimes I wonder what would of happened if the August coup didnt occur.

I also believe that if the USSR was doomed, it would of ended in a much more awful way if Gorbachev wasn't there.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Oh god... someone check the temp in hell... I actually agree with brother muaddib... :
:

Ya know what though...

lets take Gorbys advice... and start dismantling our weapons and then sell the fissile material to the chechens or georgian rebels... waste not want not... sell it to whoever wants to buy...

if a few nukes get sold on the black market to unknown enemys of Russia... Opps... well, they wanted us to follow there lead in dismantling...
what more could they expect...
if our black market starts dealing surplus stocks of munitions to terrorists within russia... Oh well.... we were just doing what dumby head gorby said to do...
mind you... the man is respectable... but those comments were very stupid and did nothing but point back to the negative effects of his own countries dismantlement program... and how terrorists have nukes due to starving russian scientists and a poor oversight....

what a great example he gave us to follow...
and of course... this action would result in everyone loving the americans and all other transgressions forgiven... yeah... sure....

What kind of drugs do they do in Russia? Gorby had too many.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by LazarusTheLong]



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Carseller, I would buy a car from you any day...(you got one?), but Don't let the teenagers in here drag you down to their 8th grade mentality


And your 9th grade mentality is far superior!


Seriously though, you shouldn't have to resort to cheap shots if you have a point worth making.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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Drfunk, it appeared that you're a New World Order lover.


You're admiring Gorbachev so much that you are too blinded to see the real deception behind Gorbachev's NWO agenda. He is pretty tight with Maurice Strong, David Rockefeller, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Henry Kissinger and George Soros, all NWO advocates.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by the_oleneo
Drfunk, it appeared that you're a New World Order lover.


You're admiring Gorbachev so much that you are too blinded to see the real deception behind Gorbachev's NWO agenda. He is pretty tight with Maurice Strong, David Rockefeller, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Henry Kissinger and George Soros, all NWO advocates.


you NWO boys crack me up
the only NWO communists use to advocate was a worldwide revolution of workers.

"workers of the world unite!"

though gorbachev himself is not a communist anymore, i spose there is reasons why you think gorbachev and his foundation is advocating the nwo and of you might also think that the USSR never really collapsed.

it's understandable there's polarized opinion on him, like all leaders there always will be.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 23-4-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by drfunk
However he made great successes in bringing freedom and peace to Eastern Europe and the entire world.


Really?....there is freedom and peace in eastern Europe and the entire world?.... in what planet do you reside? I want to move there if there is another Earth where Gorbachev brought freedom and peace to the whole world....



Originally posted by drfunk
Nuclear arms reduction also is another great thing he done plus the continual reduction of soviet forces. He stopped nuclear testing in the soviet union even without trying to get the americans to do the same and he even offered reagan to dismantle all nukes in both countries alltogether, something reagan ofcourse refused.


And president Reagan did well in not falling for this ruse.... You actually think that the Russians ever stopped trying to develop new nukes?.... Let's see if that is true.....


The Associated Press
Updated: 2:33 p.m. ET Nov. 17, 2004

WASHINGTON - The White House reacted cautiously Wednesday to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s statement that his country is developing a nuclear missile “of the kind that other nuclear powers do not and will not have.”
...........
Putin said earlier Wednesday that Russia is researching and successfully testing new nuclear missile systems, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.


Excerpted from.
msnbc.msn.com...

Yep, the Russians stopped trying to develop new nukes alright....


If they told us in 2004 about this you can be certain that in 1994 this program existed.....

Let's also see if it is true that in the 90s the Russians stopped trying to built up their armaments....


On 16 October 1996 Commander in Chief of the Russian Navy ADM Feliks Gromov announced that work would start on a new-generation strategic nuclear-powered submarine, which he said would be "two or three times more powerful" than any submarine currently in the fleet.

The keel of the fourth-generation strategic missile submarine Yuri Dolgoruky was laid down at the Sevmash State Nuclear Ship-Building Centre at Severodvinsk on 2 November 1996. The keel-laying was postponed for a week after poor weather made it impossible for high ranking officials to attend, including First Deputy Defense Minister Andrei Kokoshin, Presidential Chief of Staff Anatoly Chubais, Moscow mayor Yuri Luzkhov, and Admiral Gromov. Kokoshin described the new Yuri Dolgoruky as a state-of-the-art submarine with "substantial improvements" over those currently in service, and Chubais termed the new submarine "a totally unique thing, a submarine for the next century."


Excerpted from.
www.fas.org...





Originally posted by drfunk
The primary reason IMO that I believe Gorbachev failed is because his reforms couldnt keep up with the changes happening at soviet society. There was too much debate and opposition and due to the massive bureaucracy and sluggishly reacting economy trying to get anything done was remarkably hard.


It failed because it was supposed to fail.... Perestroika was never supposed to last....

BTW let's see if Gorbachev is not a Communist.....


I am a Communist, a convinced Communist! For some that may be a fantasy. But to me it is my main goal.
Mikhail S. Gorbachev


Excerpted from.
www.brainyquote.com...

Gorbachev said this in 1989, while the Berlin wall was brought down....




Originally posted by drfunk
But at least he tried. And the greatest testament to the man is that it all ended relatively peacefully.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 22-4-2005 by drfunk]


Yep....relatively peaceful alright...that's why there has not been any big wars between some of the former Russian states....

What Gorbachev tried to do is part of the Kremlin's plan, to get the US to disarm, and to decieve the whole world into accepting a new socialist system as it is defined by Communists, among other things.


[edit on 23-4-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 01:33 AM
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I dont know what your trying to prove....


Originally posted by Muaddib
Really?....there is freedom and peace in eastern Europe and the entire world?.... in what planet do you reside? I want to move there if there is another Earth where Gorbachev brought freedom and peace to the whole world....


he made successes in bringing freedom to europe and peace to the world. Most of eastern europe are transitioning and taking their place into the unified Europe and the EU. The world isnt perfect, i didnt say he brought total peace to the world just that he made great successes towards peace. Because of gorbachev the cold war is over, we don't live under the fear anymore that everyday could be our last because of competing superpowers who have very tense relations. They gave him a nobel peace prize for that you know.




And president Reagan did well in not falling for this ruse.... You actually think that the Russians ever stopped trying to develop new nukes?.... Let's see if that is true.....


it wasnt a ruse, reagan didnt accept. and I said that because of Gorbachev they stopped nuclear weapons testing I didnt say they weren't developing new platforms, the Topol missile for instance has been well known for years and is designed to replace the older generation of russian ICBM's. But the Russians do not test nuclear weapons anymore because of Mikhail Gorbachev, something he accomplished without the americans doing the same.




It failed because it was supposed to fail.... Perestroika was never supposed to last....
an ignorant statement that has no research behind it


BTW let's see if Gorbachev is not a Communist.....


I am a Communist, a convinced Communist! For some that may be a fantasy. But to me it is my main goal.
Mikhail S. Gorbachev


Excerpted from.
www.brainyquote.com...

Gorbachev said this in 1989, while the Berlin wall was brought down....


after the collapse of the soviet union gorbachev said he wasn't a communist anymore. that quote is outdated and it is one of his most famous.

Look to "Out of a Dead End, Into the Unknown" for instance, by Gorbachev's former assistant Vladimir Yegorov, quite an interesting read :



Time has also shown that the Russian people and Gorbachev evaluated the history of the country and socialism in different ways. Now the former number one communist and president sasys that not only is he no longer a communist, he is not a socialist either




Yep....relatively peaceful alright...that's why there has not been any big wars between some of the former Russian states....

What Gorbachev tried to do is part of the Kremlin's plan, to get the US to disarm, and to decieve the whole world into accepting a new socialist system as it is defined by Communists, among other things.


This notion that the collapse was a farse is absolutely ridiculous. It has no historical evidence to support it whatsoever, while there are numerous books, historical papers, journals, radio telecasts, film, television broadcasts and documents supporting the fact that the USSR collapsed after the August 1991 coup. It's nothing more than paranoia from the american right that is unsubstantiated and has no real evidence to support it.

There's more basis for someone saying that the US didnt really land on the moon than that the USSR did not collapse.

and also i argue without gorbachev things would of been much worse. I didnt say it ended all happily ever after and that its peaceful, i said the collapse of the USSR ended relatively peacefully as did the collapse of eastern europe. And if you remember, it did.

You are undoubtedly a convinced capitalist and conservative, you would believe marxist-leninism is doomed to fail. Well without gorbachev's liberal reforms and his successes in relieving east-west tensions and with his contributions to world peace, the collapse of marxist-leninism could of ended much worse for us all. Could you imagine what would of happened if the August coup suceeded for instance? or if Gorbachev did not become general secretary at all?

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 23-4-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by drfunk
you NWO boys crack me up
the only NWO communists use to advocate was a worldwide revolution of workers.

"workers of the world unite!"


You don't need workers of the world to foist a revolution over the world.

I cannot believe that you are in a vast NWO conspiracy forum website and totally ignored the abundance of evidence surrounding the NWO plans and designs.

Methinks you are incapable of accepting the obvious.


Originally posted by drfunk
though gorbachev himself is not a communist anymore, i spose there is reasons why you think gorbachev and his foundation is advocating the nwo and of you might also think that the USSR never really collapsed.

it's understandable there's polarized opinion on him, like all leaders there always will be.
[edit on 23-4-2005 by drfunk]


That's because you don't take the time to research and study for yourself as long as you're wearing thick-lensed rose-colored glasses.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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I cannot believe that you are in a vast NWO conspiracy forum website and totally ignored the abundance of evidence surrounding the NWO plans and designs.

Methinks you are incapable of accepting the obvious.


methinks you are incapable of accepting reality. It's not obvious at all since there seems to be a lack of conclusive and scholarly evidence of a gorbachev NWO conspiracy, but a lot of opinion and paranoia.


That's because you don't take the time to research and study for yourself as long as you're wearing thick-lensed rose-colored glasses.
i've studied the gorbachev years quite a lot actually, read many books that are for gorbachev and those who do nothing but attack him and i've written many essays and papers on the subject. It's actually my favourite area of history atm so researching the gorbachev years is a little hobby of mine as well as university work.

My conclusion of Gorbachev is from a lot of hard work, it isn't something i've just accepted straight away (actually when i first began interested in the subject, i thought he was weak and a fool)

Anyways, if you can offer me some scholarly journal articles and conclusive proof that he is part of a NWO I would sure love to have a read of them. Or will you just keep offering unfounded opinions that have no credible evidence to back them up?

thanks,
drfunk


[edit on 23-4-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Go titor go! go titor go!.bush will cause the civil war,3 billion lives would be destroyed.GO bush GO! go



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 11:35 AM
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I don't know what this thread is just about wether or not Gorby is the good guy or not.
What he says about America (what the thread is about) is true, regardless of who he is and what he did.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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drfunk, i find it interesting that you did not address the evidence that I gave which proves Russia did not stop, and I don't think it ever intended to stop, it's nuclear missile program. Instead you decided to insult my intelligence by claiming that i am ignorant and have not done any research, when in fact i have researched this for quite a long time.

If you want a research paper here is one for your perusal which i have posted many times, and which i am certain you have seen before because you have been part of the discussion in those other threads, along with other evidence that confirms what I have been saying.

I apologize for the long quote.


Nagorno-Karabag: A Case Study in "Perestroika"
by Dennis R. Papazian, Ph.D.
Dr. Dennis R. Papazian is a professor of Soviet history, the founder/director of the Armenian Research Center at The University of Michigan, Dearborn, and a member of the faculty of the Center for Russian and East European Studies at The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. This paper is a preliminary draft/study written for oral delivery at the annual conference of the AAASS in Washington, DC, Friday, October 19, 1990.
..................
More recently, Anatoliy Golitsyn, a Soviet defector of high status, has suggested that the Soviet Union is capable of disinformation on such a massive scale that even the Borkenau system is no longer viable.2 In a book first published in 1984, and of necessity written before then, Golitsyn argues that the leadership of the whole Communist bloc came to an agreement in 1958 in which it established a long range program, a master plan, which it would realize through a large scale deception of the West, a monumental scam.

Golitsyn maintains that the goals of the master plan were to provide a more profound political stabilization of individual communist regimes by developing wider mass support, the rectification of economic weakness of the bloc by increased international trade and the acquisition of credits and high technology from the West, the creation of a substructure for an eventual world federation of communist states, political isolation of the US from its allies, developing influence among socialists in Western Europe and Japan, the dissolution of NATO, and an alignment between the Soviet Union and a neutral, preferably socialist, Western Europe; concerted action with nationalist leaders in the Third World to eliminate Western influence as a preliminary to absorbing them in a communist federation, shifting the balance of power in favor of the Communist world, and the ideological disarmament of the West to create favorable conditions for convergence of East and West on communist terms.

Golitsyn predicts that the Soviet regime will be stabilized by the creation of spurious, controlled opposition movements and the use of those movements to neutralize genuine internal and external opposition, and that it will encourage communist parties to establish united fronts with socialist parties throughout the world thus increasing Soviet influence in parliaments and trade unions.


Some of the techniques, according to Golitsyn, will be dissension within the bloc, unity of action behind disunity of words, a show of weakness before meeting with Western leaders or before major initiatives or negotiations, and the heavy use of disinformation.5 This disinformation will emanate from official Communist sources, unofficial Communist sources, and "secret" communist sources, much of it retrospective. It is to be delivered through Western newspapermen, scholars, officials, and the Soviet intelligentsia.

It is interesting to note, in this regard, that most of what we believe to be happening in the Soviet Union still comes from Soviet sources, which are delivered directly to the West and are not always available internally, glasnost notwithstanding. Boris Yeltsin's book, Against the Grain,6 was published in the West in English, apparently to establish his bono fides as a dissident candidate just before he was elected president of the RSFSR. It has not been released in the USSR in any language whatsoever.

The final phase of the master plan, according to Golitsyn, is a disinformation and deception campaign of such magnitude that it would be "beyond the imagination of Marx, or the practical reach of Lenin, and unthinkable to Stalin. Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland."7

Golitsyn predicted the "breakup" of the communist bloc in Eastern Europe as a technique to be used by the Soviet government to entice Europe to move more towards socialism and to align itself eventually with the USSR against the United States.8 The Third World would then join communist Russia and socialist Western Europe against the US and its allies. Then there would be a joint drive by the Soviet bloc and a socialist Europe to push the US out of Europe and into nuclear disarmament. A powerful world federation of communist states would emerge and the US would be induced to "converge" on communist terms.9

Such a plan would not only exceed the imagination of Marx, or the practical reach of Lenin, and be unthinkable to Stalin, but also defies credulity altogether. Still, despite its incredulity, it must be admitted that at least a year before Gorbachev came to power Golitsyn predicted in writing the breakup of the communist bloc and dissension within the Soviet Union. Since apparent change has come to Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union at a pace unimaginable only a few years ago -- unimaginable except, we must add, to Anatoliy Golitsyn -- perhaps it is worth the attempt to test the Golitsyn hypothesis in the light of what is currently happening in Europe and the USSR.

We should be aware, Golitsyn warns, that much of the information that is being served up in the Soviet Union and even in Eastern Europe is being prepared by the same cooks who fed the West lies in pre-glasnost and pre-perestroika times; hence the title of his book, New Lies for Old. Why should we, asks Golitsyn, believe that the same people who lied to us in the past are now telling us the truth? Is it not possible that glasnost is nothing more that a cover for a new set of lies, lies that the West wants to believe, the lies that Communism is dead and the USSR is mellowing? This information, which the Soviets themselves distribute, must be information that the Soviets want distributed. Is it not possible that perestroika is that limited restructuring described by Gorbachev in his book, Perestroika: New Thinking for Our Country and the World,10 and not the stampede to capitalism which American pundits think they are witnessing?


Excerpted from.
www.umd.umich.edu...


Golitsyn has been predicting to the letter what has been happening in Russia has he not? The thing is that Golitsyn is not the only high ranking Russian military defector who has been telling us about this plan.

One thing to note is also that we have seen the strange circumstances in the manner in which many political figures in the former Russian states have come to an end. Some of these political figures who were against the Kremlin have come to ends such as having two bullets in the head and the case being referred as a suicide by authorities, branding a president of a former Russian state a terrorist without any proof to back this up and then killing him, and some other devious means which the opposition of the Kremlin has encountered. We can not of course forget that Yushenko, the now president of the Ukraine, was poisoned and the only strong opponent he had was the candidate the Kremlin backed Yanukovich.

Every one of the predictions that Golitsyn and other Russiant military defectors have been telling us at least since 1984 has come true. We can also see that Russia for some reason still backs those regimes that are anti-american, some of you might say it is just because they want to make money, yet that i know of Russia does not provided such armament to countries such as South Korea.

Who can forget the aid by the two retired Russian generals, still backed by Kremlin, who were awarded medals by Saddam before the war started, one of which was part of the supposed communist coup in Russia, but that for some reason is still backed by the Kremlin.


Last week it was disclosed that two retired three-star generals -- Vladislav Achalov (a former paratrooper and specialist in urban warfare) and Igor Maltsev (a specialist in air defense) -- visited Baghdad recently and were awarded medals by Hussein. The awards were handed out by Iraqi Defense Minister Sultan Khashim Akhmed.

It was reported that the retired generals helped Hussein prepare a war plan to defeat the Americans. Achalov confirmed he was in Baghdad just before the war and received medals from Hussein for services rendered. He also told journalists that the defense of Baghdad was well organized, U.S. tanks would be burned if they enter the city and U.S. infantry would be slaughtered. According to Achalov, the only way the allies could ever take Baghdad and other Iraqi cities was to raze them to the ground by carpet bombing.

Last week, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov echoed Achalov's opinion: "If the Americans continue to fight accurately, avoiding high casualties, the outcome is uncertain. If the Americans begin carpet bombing, Iraq will be defeated." Ivanov also announced that the Defense Ministry was attentively studying the war in order to learn how to build a stronger Russian army.


Excerpted from.
www.cdi.org...

If there is no threat from Russia anymore, why have Russian officials claimed that their new wonder weapon could bypass any missile defense that the US may come up with? Why are they "learning from the war in Iraq" on how to build a stronger Russian army?...


[edit on 23-4-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
I don't know what this thread is just about wether or not Gorby is the good guy or not.
What he says about America (what the thread is about) is true, regardless of who he is and what he did.


The purpose of showing all this evidence is whether or not we should trust "the word of Gorbachev." What is the motive behind his remarks against the US? and why has Gorbachev been more linient in his remarks against what president putin has been doing in Russia?



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Muaddib I wish you'd turn your intellect onto the United States for once as you've obviously researched the hell out of China and the FSU and got most of it right.

What Gorbachev says about the USA is correct, whether or not you like him or trust him, his words are accurate. The United States is sick, its constitution is being ignored by its leaders. Its economy is on shaky ground with a Euro coup de grace not far off. Its military is being used up for frivolous money making excursions in the Middle East.

Regan did miss an historic opportunity in mutal disarmament and I dont agree that the Russians planned on covertly keeping/increasing their nuclear armaments.

The quote you mentioned about Putin's Russia developing a new nuclear missile is in direct response to the United States missile shield. It announces its intent to create a new missile, not that it has it already so your 10 year back plan is not accurate. If the United States didnt tear up the ABM treaty they wouldnt of needed to create a weapon that would negate it, would they?

I hope peak oil hits and all this crap we call humanity gets wiped out. Im sick of reading ignorant posts on here (not yours Muaddib) and its just an indication of what a joke humanity is right now. Times up for us, give some other species a crack at it, we're all "the losers".

[edit on 23/4/05 by subz]



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

The purpose of showing all this evidence is whether or not we should trust "the word of Gorbachev."


How about you value these words on what they mean instead of who speaks the words...

What is the motive behind his remarks against the US? and why has Gorbachev been more linient in his remarks against what president putin has been doing in Russia?


More linient?
The world is full of crap, should Gorbachev be in the news every day about what he has to say about this and that?
Some things are obvious enough and other things (like americas hypocrit policy) are not obvious enough yet (at least not to you it seems) so that is probably why this man made the news with his comments about the US.



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko

How about you value these words on what they mean instead of who speaks the words...


How about you value the words of all those high ranking Russian defectors who all say this is just part of the Kremlin's plan to decieve the world into accepting a new communism dogma?... I know i do value their words and the work done by experts such as Dr. Dennis R. Papazian, who say that what these defectors have been saying, such as Golitsyn, is actually happening.

Not only that but even Dr Papazian finds it extremely coincidental, well he says it is highly coincidental, that Gorbachev could very well be part of this plan because he still showed/shows to have much power behind the scenes in Russia even after he resigned giving power over to Yeltsin.


Finally, there seems to be a high coincidence between visits by various leaders, domestic and foreign, to Gorbachev and the implementation or occurrence of radical change, leaving open the possibility that the highest instructions come directly from Gorbachev himself.

For example, just after a telephone call from Gorbachev to new Polish party leader Rakowski on August 22, 1989, the Polish United Workers' Party announced that it would enter into a "partnerlike cooperation" with Solidarity, thus allowing the formation of a Solidarity government with Mazowiecki as prime minister. It is also well known, that at this writing, there is a struggle going on between Mazowiecki and Walesa, the former undisputed head of Solidarity, who himself has visited Moscow.

Furthermore, it is also well known that Gorbachev visited East Berlin and spoke with Erich Honecker on October 6, 1989, only twelve days before Honecker resigned, beginning the process of East Germany's demise.15

Also, Levon Der Bedrosian, former Karabagh Committee Leader, and recently elected president of the Armenian parliament, received congratulations from Gorbachev, who a year before had given orders for his arrest. It was reported that Der Bedrosian flew to Moscow on August 8, 1990, "to meet with Gorbachev on the 9th or 10th." While later reports announced that Der Bedrosian had met with Nikolai Ryzhkov, Soviet premier, and other leaders, and still later reports that he had met with Gorbachev, it was only two weeks later, on August 23, 1990, that Armenia declared independence.16


Excerpted from.
www.umd.umich.edu...




Originally posted by Jakko
More linient?
The world is full of crap, should Gorbachev be in the news every day about what he has to say about this and that?
Some things are obvious enough and other things (like americas hypocrit policy) are not obvious enough yet (at least not to you it seems) so that is probably why this man made the news with his comments about the US.


Noone expects Gorbachev to talk about everything that is happening in the world, but one would think that if he can harshly criticize the US he should be able to say worse things about what is happening in Russia, yet he doesn't.


[edit on 23-4-2005 by Muaddib]




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