The Case for Roswell: Part IV (Section A) Newest Additions

THE CASE FOR ROSWELL PART IV

The Aftermath
Section A (Timeline of the Aftermath)

Part I can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part II can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section C can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section D can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section E can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again, fair warning that this is going to be a long read…but I wanted to be very thorough. I’d highly recommend reading the first parts before going on, as there is no recapping here… Upon completion of this thread, I’ll be posting all parts in one long post for easier reference. At this point, the press had broken the story, but hours later, the balloon coverup goes into full swing. By morning, the incident is destined to be laughed off for decades to come. However, away from the public eye, the rest of the recovery operation is still taking place, and Brazel is still in the Army’s custody. A bit severe for recovering some balsa wood and tin foil, as the government continues to claim.

Originally, I thought this would be one post, but after 11 pages in Word only seemed to be a dent in it, it’ll be in at least two different sections. First, in section A, we’ll discuss the events that happened immediately after the story broke (i.e. the next couple days). Then, in section B, we’ll discuss what occurred months, years later, as well as illustrate how the story came out. The following are the events from July 9th through the 15th.

Wednesday, July 9,1947

Morning newspapers trumpet the story that the "flying saucer" found near Roswell is a weather device. Some quote Ramey while others quote "informed" sources, including senators in Washington.

Gen. Ramey Empties Roswell Saucer

Ramey Says Excitement is Not Justified
General Ramey Says Disk is Weather Balloon

Headline of the Roswell Daily Record for July 9, 1947

Clean-up on the various sites resumes at sunup. The military is trying to get everything picked up before any more civilians stumble across the field.

At 8:00 A.M. members of the First Air Transport Unit begin loading crates into C-54s. They load three or four aircraft with an intermediate destination of Kirtland. From there they are to be taken on to Los Alamos. Armed guards watch the loading of the aircraft.


(The above provided for visualization, shot of a C-54 takeoff from Roswell-though not taken on July 9th)

Testimony from Sergeant Robert Smith (from interviews, 1991)

A lot of people began coming in all of a sudden because of the official investigation. Somebody said it was a plane crash, but we heard from a man in Roswell that it was not a plane crash, it was something else, a strange object. There was another indication that something serious was going on. One night, when we were coming back to Roswell, a convoy of trucks covered with canvas passed us. When they got to the [airfield] gate, they headed over to this hangar on the east end, which was rather unusual. The truck convoy had red lights and sirens. My involvement in the incident was to help load crates of debris into the aircraft. We all became aware of the event when we went to the hangar on the east side of the ramp. There were a lot of people in plain clothes all over the place. They were inspectors, but they were strangers on the base. When challenged, they replied they were here on Project So-and-So, and flashed a card, which was different from a military ID card.

We were taken to the hangar to load crates. There was a lot of farm dirt on the hangar floor. We loaded [the crates] on flatbeds and dollies. Each crate had to be checked as to width and height. We had to know which crates went on which plane. We loaded crates on three [or] four C-54s. We weren't supposed to know their destination, but we were told they were headed north. . . .There were armed guards around during loading of our planes, which was unusual at Roswell. There was no way to get to the ramp except through armed guards. There were MPs on the outskirts, and our personnel were between them and the planes.
The largest [crate] was roughly twenty feet long, four to five feet high, and four to five feet wide. It took up an entire plane. It wasn't that heavy, but it was a large volume. The rest of the crates were two or three feet long and two feet square or smaller. [. . . All I saw was a little piece of material. . . .] The sergeant who had the piece of material said [it was like] the material in the crates. The entire loading took at least six, perhaps eight hours. Lunch was brought to us, which was unusual. The crates were brought to us on flatbed dollies, which was also unusual.

Officially, we were told it was a crashed plane, but crashed planes usually were taken to the salvage yard, not flown out. I don't think it was an experimental plane, because not too many people in that area were experimenting with planes. I'm convinced that what we loaded was a UFO that got into mechanical problems. Even with the most intelligent people, things go wrong. (F&B)

roswellproof.homestead.com...

Jud Roberts along with Walt Whitmore, Sr., attempt to drive out to the debris field but run into the military cordon and are turned back. (From Jud Roberts’ affidavit)

(1) My name is George "Jud" Roberts

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am (X) retired ( ) employed as: __________________________________

(4) In July 1947, I was a minority stockholder and manager of KGFL Radio in Roswell, New Mexico. We did an interview with W.W. "Mac" Brazel, the rancher who found some debris on his property. He hid him out at the home of the station owner, W.E. Whitmore, Sr., and recorded the interview on a wire recorder.

(5) The next morning, I got a call from someone in Washington, D.C. It may have been someone in the office of [Senators] Clinton Anderson or Dennis Chavez. This person said, "We understand that you have some information, and we want to assure you that if you release it, it's very possible that your station's license will be in jeopardy, so we suggest that you not do it." The person indicated that we might lose our license in as quickly as three days. I made the decision not to release the story.

(6) I made an attempt to go out to the crash site to see it for myself, but I was turned back by a military person who said we were in a restricted area.

(7) At that time, there was quite a clamp on any discussion concerning the event. We just decided for Walter Haut's sake that we should sit tight and not say anything, even though in our own minds, we had some question about the validity of the weather balloon explanation. Weather balloons were launched about a block from our station every day. We didn't accept the official explanation, but we had no evidence to the contrary.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: George F. "Jud" Roberts
12/30/91

Signature witnessed by:
Signature Guaranteed
Sunwest Bank of Roswell, N.M.
Roswell, New Mexico

By: Nancy Montgomery, Assistant Cashier

According to Roswell Army Air Field head secretary Elizabeth Kyle (from interviews), the telephones at the base are still tied up by the incoming calls. (an interesting side note, “Elizabeth” and “Kyle” were later chosen as character names for the Roswell TV series. Not relevant really, but I did find it interesting.)

More of the wreckage is brought into the base and is now being taken to be boxed into crates of various sizes and shapes.
Bud Payne, a rancher in the Corona area, tries to go to the Foster ranch. He is turned back. (From his Affidavit of 9/14/93)

"When I heard about the flying saucer coming down on the Foster
ranch a few days after it happened in early July 1947, I decided to see if I could get a piece of the thing. The site where the saucer came down was about two or two and a half miles east of the east boundary of our pasture. I drove over there in a pickup truck.

"Before I reached the site, I was stopped by two soldiers sitting in an Army truck parked beside the ranch road I was on. They were in field uniforms, and they may have been armed, wearing pistols. There were more vehicles and soldiers on higher ground beyond where I had been stopped.

"I told the two soldiers who stopped me I was going to where the flying saucer came down. They said 'We know where you're going, but you can't go in there." They did not threaten me, but they had their instructions to turn everybody back."

At 12:00 PM. the crate that has been sitting in the empty hangar guarded by the MPs is moved out to bomb pit number one. Nothing other than weapons has ever been stored in the bomb pit.

In Roswell Floyd Proctor and Lyman Strickland see Mac Brazel under escort by three military officers. He ignores both of them, something that he wouldn't have done under normal circumstances.

According to Daily Record editor Paul McEvoy, the military officers escorted the rancher out of the news office immediately upon the conclusion of the interview. While they were walking toward the car, two of Brazel's neighbors — Floyd Proctor and Lyman Strickland — passed by. Both men were surprised that their friend didn't acknowledge them in any way.

Proctor said later that the military was keeping Brazel on a very short leash. Two other neighbors — Leonard Porter, who lived on the ranch south of Brazel's, and Bill Jenkins, another rancher — reported they saw Brazel surrounded by military personnel in downtown Roswell. The rancher kept his eyes down and pretended he didn't notice his neighbors.

www.scifi.com...

At lunch (at the officers’ club) the nurse tells Dennis she is sick and wants to return to the barracks. In the course of the meal, she has provided Dennis with an account of what has happened and given him a drawing of the alien bodies. (from Dennis’ affidavit, mentioned earlier in this series…see Sections C&D of the timeline) We’ve talked about the controversy surrounding the name of Naomi Self before. However, there is another witness who corroborates this name, and who did actually swear to an affidavit. David Wagnon.

1) My name is David N. Wagnon

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am ( ) employed as: Toxicologist (x) I am semiretired.

(4) I arrived in Roswell, New Mexico, in April 1946 as an enlisted member of the U.S. Army Air Force. I served at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) for two years, assigned to Squadron "M," the medical unit, as a technician in the base hospital laboratory. After leaving the service, I earned an undergraduate and graduate degrees in science, taught high school, and was a school principal and drug education consultant. In July 1947, I was 19 and a private first class.

(5) I do not recall anything about a crashed flying saucer incident during the time I was stationed at RAAF, but I do remember an Army nurse named Naomi Self, who was assigned to the base hospital. She was small, attractive, in her twenties, and, I believe, a brunette. I seem to recall Miss Self was transferred from RAAF while I was still stationed there, but I am not at all certain about this.

(6) Miss Self's name really stuck with me because it is somewhat unusual and she was dating the local Red Cross representative, who was quite a bit older, probably in his late forties. I do not remember the man's name, but do recall he had an office in town and was always hanging around Squadron "M" and the emergency room. (this is likely Glenn Dennis, but he did not confirm this)

(7) There were rumors about Miss Self have a D&C (dilatation and curettage) in the base hospital, the tissue being sent off (probably to Brook Medical Center in San Antonio, Texas), and the biopsy report coming back with some indication of fetal tissue. There was a lot of speculation about this in the squadron.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: David N. Wagnon
Date: November 15, 1993

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME
THIS 15 DAY OF Nov 1993
Lisa C. Watson, NOTARY PUBLIC

So, what happened to Miss Self? We’ve got two different individuals claiming to know the individual, and even to her duties on the base, and yet she seems to have vanished without a trace. Then, if one recalls the testimony of several of the Roswell witnesses, such as Proctor, Dennis, etc. then it is easy to remember that that is EXACTLY what the military threatened to do to people who talked. They threatened to not only kill such witnesses, but also to erase their existence. Others who attack Dennis as a witness should also know that the claim of bodies was not made later in interviews, but actually also at the time of the event, as stated by former Roswell police chief L. M. Hall (from an affidavit)

(1) My name is L. M. Hall

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am ( ) employed as: _________________________________ (x) retired,

(4) I came to Roswell, New Mexico, in 1943, while serving in the Army Air Force. I was a military policeman and investigator at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF). In 1946, after being discharged from the service, I joined the Roswell Police Department, and in 1964 I was appointed chief of police, serving for 14 and a half years. I am now a member of the Roswell City Council.

(5) In 1947, I was a motorcycle office, with patrol duty on South Main Street, between town and RAAF. I and other police officers would often take our breaks in the small lounge at the Ballard Funeral Home t 910 South Main, where Glenn Dennis worked. I had gotten to know Glenn when I was a base MP because he made ambulance calls to the base under a contract Ballard's had, so I would sometimes have coffee with him if he was at work when I stopped in.

(6) One day in July 1947, I was at Ballard's on a break, and Glenn and I were in the driveway "batting the breeze." I was sitting on my motorcycle, and Glenn stood nearby. He remarked, "I had a funny call from the base. They wanted to know if we had several baby caskets." Then he started laughing and said, "I asked what for, and they said they wanted to bury [or ship] those aliens," something to that effect. I thought it was one of those "gotcha" jokes, so I didn't bite. He never said anything else about it, and I didn't either.

(7) I believe our conversation took place couple of days after the stories about a crashed flying saucer appeared in the Roswell papers.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: L. M. Hall
Date: 9-15-93

Under military escort Brazel is taken into town and into the offices of the Roswell Daily Record. There he gives reporters, including R. A. Adair and Jason Kellahin from Albuquerque, a new story. Now he claims to have found the debris on June 14. He also says he has found weather observation devices on two other occasions, and what he found is no weather balloon.

Ramey's weather officer; Irving Newton, says the weather balloon is a special kind. "We use them because they go much higher than the eye can see.

An officer from the base sweeps through Roswell picking up copies of Haut's press release, including those at the two radio stations. (Art McQuiddy said that a military officer had retrieved the copies of the press release written by Haut.)

Late in the afternoon, a flight crew at the skeet range is told they have a special flight coming up. The squadron operations officer; Edgar Skelly, tells the aircraft commander to keep everyone together.

The aircraft loaded by Robert Smith and other members of the First Air Transport Unit takes off for Albuquerque. The crates will eventually reach Los Alamos. All the crates are marked with stencils saying TOP SECRET.
Members of the flight crew pulled from the skeet range quickly preflight their aircraft. Once that is accomplished, they taxi out to the bomb pit. The only places on the base where the bomb pit can be observed are the tower and portions of the flight line.

A sealed, unmarked wooden crate is brought out and loaded into the bomb bay of the B-29, tail number 7301. Six armed MPs guard it, never allowing it out of their sight.

At Fort Worth a number of officers meet the aircraft. One is a man the bombardier recognizes as a mortician with whom he went to school. (From the affidavit of Sergeant Robert Slusher, of the 393rd Bomb Squadron, Pflock, FUFOR, 1993)


Sgt. Robert Slusher

On July 9, 1947, I boarded a B-29 which taxied to the bomb area on the base to get a crate, which we loaded into the forward bomb bay. Four armed MPs guarded the crate, which was approximately four feet high, five feet wide, and 12 feet long. We departed Roswell at approximately 4:00 PM for Fort Worth [later Carswell AFB]. ... On arrival at Fort Worth we were met by six people, including three MPs. They took possession of the crate. The crate was loaded on to a flatbed weapons carrier and hauled off. Their MPs accompanied the crate. One officer present was a major, the other a 1st lieutenant. The sixth person was an undertaker who had been a classmate of a crewman on our flight, Lt. Felix Martucci. ...


Lt. Felix Martucci

After returning to Roswell, we realized that what was in the crate was classified. There were rumors that they had carried debris from a crash. Whether there were any bodies, I don't know. The crate had been specially made; it had no markings.

Another person of the crew (identified only as “Tim”), from interviews with Randle and Schmidt (1991). In all of his conversations with researchers, he has asked for his identity to be withheld, but he appears to have been fully verified by many. (the photo below is pixilated to conceal identity, but to somewhat convey this). If his testimony was something out of the ordinary, I wouldn’t even include it here, but since it’s just corroboration, I’ll include it but with the disclaimer that other than taking people at their word, I cannot verify his identity publicly, nor to you the reader.

"The sergeant in charge of the range asked us if we had heard about the "flying disc" that had crashed out in the desert. Twice more before leaving the skeet range, we heard reports of a spaceship with bodies inside that had been found on a ranch in the area. ... We were positioned so the front bomb-bay was directly over the pit which was covered with a large tarp. But no atomic bomb was in the pit that afternoon. When the canvas was removed by the loading crew, all we could see was a very large wooden box. ( [The box] was made of wood ... and was unpainted and unmarked as though hastily constructed. Fitting snugly into the bomb-bay, its approximate size: 5 ft. high, 4 ft. wide and about 15 ft. long.) ... Once the load was secured in the bomb-bay, four military policemen went inside and took positions at each corner of the box. I think two of them were majors, and one a lieutenant. The fourth man was an NCO. ... One of the crew, a very outspoken individual, said on the way home, that we were now a "part of history." He went on to say, he knew it was the disc and remains of the flight crew because he had seen a man he recognized in the reception group. This man was a mortician by military specialty.”

At 6:00 PM. Joseph Montoya (then Lt. Governor, now a late Senator) returns to the base to catch the courier flight to land. He wants to get out of Roswell and forget what he has seen.

Pete Annaya, who maintains that the late U.S. Senator Joseph Montoya had a firsthand encounter with alien bodies in Hangar 84 on the Roswell base back in 1947. The witness' wife, Mary, corroborates his story, as does his son, who later worked for Montoya. (Thomas J. Carey, The Roswell Report)

According to the Anaya brothers, they received a telephone call from a shaken Montoya; he asked them to join him at the hangar as soon as possible and pick him up.

The brothers, who both worked on the base, drove over to hangar area but were kept at a distance from the building by armed guards. Montoya appeared through a small door in the front of the hangar and staggered over to the car and the waiting Anayas. Montoya shouted at them, "Let's get the hell out of here!"

The Anayas drove to their home. Montoya sat in the back seat; they said he looked ghostly pale, shook for the entire ride, and repeated over and over again, "They weren't human! They weren't human!"

The next day, the two Anaya brothers and their families were paid a visit at their homes by Sheriff Wilcox. According to Pete Anaya and his wife, Mary, who were interviewed again in September 2002 about this incident, Wilcox vowed to impose the ultimate sanction upon them if they talked about what they had seen:
"If you say anything, you will be killed. And your entire family will be killed, as well."

www.scifi.com...

There are actually other witness accounts of being threatened by Wilcox. An interesting note is that he did not again run for Sheriff.

According to family and friends, the Roswell events "destroyed him." Now we know why. When asked about all this just a few years ago, a former deputy of Wilcox's responded, "I don't want to get shot."

(Same link as above)


Sheriff Wilcox, from the July 9th Roswell Daily Record

Mac Brazel calls on Frank Joyce, this time with a new story (at this point he’s recanted the earlier story (while being detained), and claims to have found a weather balloon on June 14th (almost a month ago at this time), and simply just got around to turning it in, (sure is a lot of fuss for a weather balloon, even a Mogul one, no? The date of course, was to allow the story to work at all, since without changing the date, the military knew they didn’t have a leg to stand on as they had no such balloons in the area during the actual recovery date) significantly different from the one he told on Sunday. When Joyce points that out, Brazel responds that it "would go hard on him" if he didn't tell the new story.

You're not going to say anything about what I told you the other day, are you?" Brazel asked Joyce.

"Not if you don't want me to," Joyce responded.

"Good," Brazel said. "You know our lives will never be the same."

At 8:00 PM. the flight crew is back. Again, they were not debriefed, but are told that they have flown the general's furniture to Fort Worth. They are cautioned not to tell anyone, including their families, what they have done. As far as everyone is concerned, the flight has not taken place. Wow, top secret furniture delivery?…I’m sure the pilots had to be questioning this one! According to the testimony of both “Tim” and Slusher (and a couple others that would simply be redundant here), the “general’s furniture” comment was really more of a running joke with the flights.

Upon his return, Marcel confronts Cavitt in the intelligence office. Marcel wants the reports filed in his absence, but Cavitt refuses. Marcel points out that he is the senior officer but is told the orders came from Washington. If he has a problem, to "take it up with them."


Major Jesse Marcel

The next morning, Marcel arrived at his office and confronted the officer who had accompanied him to Mack Brazel's ranch to first investigate the crash: the head of counter intelligence (CIC), Capt. Sheridan Cavitt.
"I want to see the report of what all happened here while I was in Fort Worth," Marcel demanded.

"What report?" Cavitt answered. "I don't know what you're talking about."

"I outrank you," the major reminded him.

"I take my orders from Washington," Cavitt said. "If you don't like it, you can take it up with them." On that note, the CIC officer put an abrupt end to the debate.

www.scifi.com...

The Las Vegas Review-Journal, along with dozens of other newspapers, carries a United Press story. "Reports of flying saucers whizzing through the sky fell off sharply today as the army and the navy began a concentrated campaign to stop the rumors." The story also reports that AAF headquarters in Washington "delivered a blistering rebuke to officers at Roswell."

Thursday, July 10, 1947

As he reads the morning newspaper, Bill Brazel learns about his father's activities in Roswell. He realizes that no one will be at the ranch and makes plans to get down there (to the ranch) to help.

At the debris field and impact site men are working to get everything cleaned up. They want nothing left and no signs of their presence.
Military personnel return to Sheriff Wilcox's office and ask for the box of debris he has been storing for them. Wilcox surrenders it without protest.

Mac Brazel is being held in the guest house on the base. The officers there are still trying to convince him that he is not to say anything about what he has seen. They are also trying to keep him out of the way of reporters. He is given a physical by doctors at the base hospital. (From numerous interviews and testimony)


Mac Brazel

Sheriff Wilcox calls on Glenn Dennis's father, telling him that his son has gotten himself into trouble out at the base. The sheriff had been visited by a sergeant who wants to ensure Glenn's silence.

Dennis' life had been threatened at the base hospital, by an officer who demanded Dennis forget what he had witnessed there. Like broadcaster Frank Joyce, Dennis became incensed at his treatment by the officer and openly defied the order to remain silent. The next day, his father received a visit from Sheriff Wilcox and a deputy, who told the elder Dennis that his son "was in trouble at the base." Dennis had no doubt that the Army officer's threat of the previous day was part of the message delivered to his father by Wilcox.

www.scifi.com...

Major W. D. Prichard from Alamogordo claims that a unit from his base in Roswell launched balloons around June 14. That, according to the article reported in the Roswell Daily Record, is undoubtedly what Brazel had found, and of course, this now matches with the new story given by Brazel after being held, and interrogated by the military.

Friday, July 11, 1947

The debriefings of all the participants are under way. Participants are taken into a room in small groups and told that the recovery is a highly classified event. No one is to talk about it to anyone. Everyone is to forget that it ever happened.

When he tries to contact his nurse friend, Glenn Dennis is informed that she has been transferred from the base and that no one knows where she has gone.

Members of the military warn those civilians around Roswell who know something of the events that they can never talk about what happened. In some cases, the witnesses are threatened with death should they speak to anyone.

Saturday, July 12, 1947

Bill Brazel and his wife, Shirley, arrive at the ranch, but no one is around. Brazel begins his work, first surveying the ranch to see what needs to be done. He sees no evidence of a continued military presence. The trucks, jeeps, soldiers, and cordon are gone.

This weekend no aircraft with gun cameras search for the flying disks. No aircraft on standby wait for orders to take off. In fact, all aircraft are ordered grounded to prevent further searching.

Tuesday, July 15, 1947

Mac Brazel returns from Roswell. He’s driving a brand new pickup truck. All he will say about his experience is that his interrogators kept asking him the same questions over and over again and that Bill is better off not knowing what happened. Besides, Mac has taken an oath that he will never reveal, in detail, what he saw. By now most of the world has forgotten that a flying saucer supposedly crashed in New Mexico. (Only later in life does he again tell what he really saw, and about how he was forced to go along with the coverup)

On Tuesday 15th July Mac Brazel was again intimidated by the Army but although he had lived in poverty it was noticeable that he now had a brand new truck, money to buy a new house at Tularosa and a cold store at Las Cruces.

www.think-aboutit.com...

I didn’t realize weather balloon recovery paid so well. I’m obviously in the wrong business.

Events happen slowly from here on out. The story has been successfully buried now, if not for the witnesses, at least for the rest of the world. Looking back, it’s almost impossible to imagine that all of this would be about finding a bunch of tin foil, balsa wood, and neoprene…yet in post-WWII, good citizens trusted the military, indeed in a base town, where anything and everything depended on it, and revolved around it.
Next we’ll see how things happened from here, how the story came out, and some of the ramifications the event had in the military…

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Part IV, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 21-4-2005 by Gazrok]

I didn’t realize weather balloon recovery paid so well. I’m obviously in the wrong business.

At least he got something for his trouble, and they cleaned up the mess for him.

This is amazing how they covered all this up, and on the fly. If they had procedures in place before Roswell, you probably would not be able to find anything on it.

Good job Gazrok.

On to the next one.

Amazing writing, and really good stuff. Looking forward to the next one.

Thanks

Section B (the last thread of this series), is up by the way....
Check the link at the end of the post above...

Hey Gazork something just popped into my head about this whole thing.....

Is it possible that what crashed was the missing cosmonaught capsule sent up by the Russians, the first debris field being the mylar type drag shoots and the second impact site that of the burned out capsule. The bodies that were recovered were deformed from a high alltitude pressure breach plus being burned. The capsule being partially recovered the US wanted to keep the recovereable fragments to figure out what the Russians were up to ?????

Would explain the deformed and charred bodies, the strange "spaceship" since I am sure it would have had some type of circular heat shield similar to the apollo capsules etc.....

Since the Germans were so far ahead, and in the early 50's the US was testing captured and modified V2 rockets in White Sands (developed by the germans in the late 30's).... Is it possible that some German engineering was recovered by the Russians and they built a huge rocket and "experimented" by sending some men into space. Not disclosing it because they knew it was an experiment and knew that there was a good chance that the cosmonaughts would not survive.

And the US interest in rockets, mulled over what technology they could try and recover. And as we were entering the cold war had no reason to give the Russians anything back.....

WOW... this could tie everything together....

Only one major problem with such theories....

There would have been no need to cover it up (still, over 50 years later) if either of those scenarios were correct. The Russians certainly wouldn't have been hush-hush on it, if capable of such equipment in 1947.

Not to mention, the strange properties of the debris aren't like anything they had either. Time and time again, the witnesses, from Sergeants to Generals, state that this stuff was unlike anything they'd seen before or since.

but it is material that we publicly know in the white that can be made right here on earth.

So what if the crazy German/Russian chemists had already figured out how to make these types of light weight memory alloys, like the liquid metal, metal glass etc that we know is possible to produce....

How long has this technology been in the black ????

As for the Russians wanting to keep it quite, remember there was a report that the Russians were very interested in Roswell sending a "spy" to try and get information. Maybe it was not because they wanted to know about aliens but wanted to know if they recovered their capsule.

Why they would keep the secret as well may have to do with the Russian political agenda at the time.

The alien writting maybe have been Russian Cylic (spelling?) but either badly mutated due to the fire damage or simply some type of code in Russian.

Thats a lot of what ifs, not supported by the evidence.

For example, why haven't they used these memory alloys since '47?

Why not bust the story wide open and embarass the hell out of the Americans?

The case you are trying to put forward is that the Russians, in 1947, were capable of building and launching a missile (manned or otherwise) that then fell to earth near Roswell NM. I'm not so sure you could turn up even a shread of evidence to support that theory, though I'd be interested to see the effort...

Originally posted by Gazrok
Thats a lot of what ifs, not supported by the evidence.

For example, why haven't they used these memory alloys since '47?

Good question but I think they have, Nimtrol (spelling?) wire eyeglass frames have been around since the early 70's if I recall.

Why not bust the story wide open and embarass the hell out of the Americans?

Because it was an agreement for economic aid of some sort that the US gives X dollars to keep it a secret

The case you are trying to put forward is that the Russians, in 1947, were capable of building and launching a missile (manned or otherwise) that then fell to earth near Roswell NM. I'm not so sure you could turn up even a shread of evidence to support that theory, though I'd be interested to see the effort...

I think there is a lot of technology that the public is never made aware of, as is events that happen in "black" projects that are never disclosed publiclly. The Russians having a rocket with enough juice to put something in near orbit would be entirely possible, as the plan already existed in the German Rocket Port at Penemunde (spelling ?) for a 2 stage V2 variant that was sub-orbital so no reason why the Russians did not go ahead a build it, and slap maybe a few 10 year olds in their along for the ride.

Just as the US sent monkeys, rats you name it, into sub-orbit

The US has paid billions if not trillions of dollars over the last 50 years to all sorts of foreign goverments and regime for one reason or another...

Many dark secrets our Goverment has around the world.

From gun running and involvement in drug cartels to murder for hire, coup de ta's and theft of other nations technology (think soviet aircraft).

Do you think any of this happens without some kind of monetary compensation.......... no way

Good question but I think they have, Nimtrol (spelling?) wire eyeglass frames have been around since the early 70's if I recall.

I'm pretty sure you could break such things easily with a hammer. Not so for the Roswell debris.

Because it was an agreement for economic aid of some sort that the US gives X dollars to keep it a secret

You're asserting that we paid money to Russia when fears of Communist expansion were rampant? I somehow find that more than hard to swallow...

I think there is a lot of technology that the public is never made aware of, as is events that happen in "black" projects that are never disclosed publiclly. The Russians having a rocket with enough juice to put something in near orbit would be entirely possible, as the plan already existed in the German Rocket Port at Penemunde (spelling ?) for a 2 stage V2 variant that was sub-orbital so no reason why the Russians did not go ahead a build it, and slap maybe a few 10 year olds in their along for the ride.
Just as the US sent monkeys, rats you name it, into sub-orbit

Granted, but even craft such as the U-2 (developed back in the 50's) come out eventually. Not to mention, you're claiming basically that Russia had ICBM capability in '47. If that was the case, we'd all be speaking Russian right now, and I'd close this post with dasvidanya comrade