an athiest has some questions

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posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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This thread is for Athiests or people with open minds and yes as an athiest I am biased.

The other day I was pondering how the world had been suckered into bevling god exists.
Now heres my thoughts Jesus was a real person who had a great influnce on western society in effect if Jesus said something was a good idea it would be like a movie star endosing a prouduct today. After Jesus died people could say anything in his for example " Jesus his the sun of god." Those would have known full well that god dosnt exsit.

Now to my point who was the last member of the Cathlic church that knew the truth ? The lie about god as gone on for so long that it as been taken as truth by many.

Is it possable that the truth has been passed though the generations to a select few? Athough this seems unlikely it is a distrubing thought at best.

People have questioned the exitsance of since the time of the ancient greeks.
I understand how the idea of god came about it was away of explaing the unexplainable. Who or what group of people invented the idea of god?
What person or group of people were the first to push there agenda in the name of god?

I have done some googling and the only thing of interest I found was some background on Athiests info

Note this thread isnt to debate the existance of god you can do that on this thread




posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 04:32 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Now heres my thoughts Jesus was a real person who had a great influnce on western society in effect if Jesus said something was a good idea it would be like a movie star endosing a prouduct today. After Jesus died people could say anything in his for example " Jesus his the sun of god." Those would have known full well that god dosnt exsit.

Despite this not really being the topic under discussion, I have to comment on this. Who is stupid enough to worship movie stars? There is nothing "divine" about movie stars. It's like any other job (with perhaps more media coverage). Would you become a Hindu because of one of the beatles? Would you wear Raybans because Will Smith wore them? You could, but then you would be a fool. A better comparison would be "Jesus was a real person who had a great influnce on western society in effect if Jesus said something was a good idea it would be like a person such as Mother Teresa or Gandhi endosing an ideology today."


Originally posted by xpert11
Now to my point who was the last member of the Cathlic church that knew the truth ?

Considering Jesus was gone long before any Catholic church came into being, I'd say that no one of them could ever have known the truth.


Originally posted by xpert11
The lie about god as gone on for so long that it as been taken as truth by many.
Is it possable that the truth has been passed though the generations to a select few? Athough this seems unlikely it is a distrubing thought at best.

That is the problem for you, see? There is no proof either way. It is absolutely impossible for you to disprove the existence of God. Almost as impossible as it is for someone to prove it. So it can't really be a lie. More of an unknown



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 06:33 AM
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Hello expert11, And hello to my good friend babloyi-God be with you!
The reality or non-reality of God really has nothing to do with religion at all. One should never base his or her belief in God on ANYONES religion. Debating religion or theology is as useless as trying to drain the ocean with a teaspoon. Religion is actually a great way of discouraging belief in God. Everyone has a right to their opinion and if you are already resoloute in your mind that God does not exist then NOTHING... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I say nor anything anybody else says is going to convince you otherwise. If a man wants to believe something almost anything will convince him, if a man does not want to believe something then NOTHING will convince him. All people must be met where they're at. Even though I am a fundamentalist Christian beware of those "quoting scriptures" and pounding their Bibles in order to "convert you" However, if you are truly searching for an answer I would suggest that perhaps you might pick up some basic reading on the subject of "Apologetics" or "reasonable conclusions" that any rational thinking human being might contemplate as to why God might exist. For example: basic cause and effect: even going back to the smallest micro-atomic particle, how can something be created out of nothing? You might try authors such as C.S. Lewis and Francis Schaffer for a start. Another option would be to simply ask God Himself. There's an old saying: "When the student is ready the teacher will appear."
If you are TRULY seeking, God WILL answer. Just remain open...be sure NOT to answer yourself...and DON"T listen to religious people! You'll get an answer! Wait and see! If it's not too presumptious of me I pray that God help you on your quest for Truth!

[edit on 21-4-2005 by lapi7]



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 07:24 AM
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If Jesus wasn't really the Christ, and all the deciples made everything up, they sure were dedicated to the lie. All but one of them was martyred. They were killed for believing and preaching the Gospel. They were the first, but definately not the last.

So, if they knew there was no God, that they made up the Resurection, why didn't they, like so many movements before and after when someone declared themselves to be the Christ only to be killed, disappear after Jesus's death? Instead, they died for the lie? That really doesn't sound anything like human nature to me.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 08:01 AM
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junglejake
Good point...I've always considered this the most imperical evdience for the bodily resurrection argument! Why would 11 frightened little men hiding away in an upper room all of a sudden decide to go boldly and preach and die for a something that they knew was a lie?

[edit on 21-4-2005 by lapi7]



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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Hahahahaha...
Despite the explicitly athiest invitation at the beginning, I already believe in God. There is no need to try to convert me.
Junglejake, I wasn't saying that Jesus wasn't the Christ, and as far as I can see, xpert didn't either. He was asking who was the the last member of the catholic church to know the truth. Considering that the Catholic church came about much after Jesus died, I said that it is very unlikely that any of them knew the "truth" about Jesus.
As I said about the "lie about God", it can't be proven either way, so it is not technically a lie.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 09:21 AM
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After Jesus died people could say anything in his for example " Jesus his the sun of god." Those would have known full well that god dosnt exsit.


How could he be the Messiah, or the Christ, if God doesn't exist?

This is also why I have a problem with people saying Jesus was a prophet, not the Messiah. If he was just a prophet, he lied and gave false testamony and prophesy. As a result, that would make him a false prophet. In Islam (I'm about 85% sure) and Judiasm, people who declare themselves God are NOT to be reveared. Judiasm stipulates they're to be killed, I'm not sure about Islam. Yet, as Islam the ATS member has mentioned in several posts, He is reveared as a prophet by Islam the religion. As for Judiasm, some recognise Him as a prophet, others just try not to address His existance. As to Jews who believe what they should if they don't believe He was the son of God, I've not run into any. I'm sure they are out there, but not in the Skokie, IL area or on websites I go to.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 09:52 AM
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Being son of God is not a pre-requisite to being Christ or the Messiah. You can't use the Bible for arguements with non-christians that Jesus could not have been son of God, because non-christians don't generally believe most of the Bible to be true.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 10:26 AM
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Hello babloyi,
Hello my friend. Hope you are well. Did you not read my message a few posts up?
You are a wise man. Why do you argue with these hostile Christians. You will only fuel their "ZEAL" and they will never even attempt to hear your side of anything. They are so caught up in what they want to say and to argue that your words are never really heard. They do not really "LOVE" you, they simply want to "CONVERT YOU" They are as irrational as the Muslem fundalmentist terrorists. Do not waste your time. Many of them don't even consider me a true Christian because I am friends with you...a Muslem. It is sad but true...God be with you sir.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 12:30 PM
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Didn't you know the Babelfish has proved the non-existance of god
He Vanished in a Puff of logic


(Sorry I just had to, for those who do not understand, Read(or listen) to the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
)



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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Thanks for the responses it has been interesting to say the least .
junglejake my guess is those people died for what they thought was the truth you are correct people wouldnt die for a lie.
Did the people you refer die after jesus death?
lapi7 you are correct I cant be convinced that god exists. You are also correct Atoms had to come from somewhere I back humans to find the answer by scientific means although it probaly wont happen in my life time now Im going off topic.

babloyi if being the son of god isnt a pre-requisite for being christ what is?
Is it possable jesus had the ablity to influnce people in others he was a very good motivational speaker?



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 09:51 PM
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One thing you need to remember is that if Christianity was really faked, and it is all based on a rumor or lies that occured over 2000 years ago, it would have died a long time ago as "the fad" grew old. The simple fact that many non-belivers did witness miricles performed by jesus and his Apostles, and the scriptures have been relitivly unchanged over the centuries would further validate it's exisitance as a True religion of divine origins.

one of the other things that easily is forgotten is how Jesus was a great preacher of the Jewish faith, and that the Old testement fortold his coming. Thus created a Schisum between Jews, and followers of Christ.

The jewish Laws were disigned mainly too keep them seperated from the gentiles. When Jesus started his ministry there was no need to keep eachotehr seperate, and if Jews didn't belive, Chrisitans would carry the message to unbelivers.

The Bible has one distiction that many historians, even if they are not Jews or Christians, will use it to provide insight into ancient history



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
One thing you need to remember is that if Christianity was really faked, and it is all based on a rumor or lies that occured over 2000 years ago, it would have died a long time ago as "the fad" grew old.


The fad would have only grown old if there was someone or a group of people who knew the truth and were able to convince people that they were being conned.

[edit on 21-4-2005 by xpert11]



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by junglejakeSo, if they knew there was no God, that they made up the Resurection, why didn't they, like so many movements before and after when someone declared themselves to be the Christ only to be killed, disappear after Jesus's death? Instead, they died for the lie? That really doesn't sound anything like human nature to me.
For the same reason the Jews back then and the Muslems now die for their own beliefs? Christianity does not own martyship, neither did they invent it.

So then, if we take this chronologically from Abe, the Jews died after Christ was long dead for their beliefs, and hundreds of years later, and even centuries later, Muslems die for theirs, are the beliefs of both of those religions by your logic, lies?



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by xpert11Now to my point who was the last member of the Cathlic church that knew the truth ?
By all accounts, I would say it was Clement.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
One thing you need to remember is that if Christianity was really faked, and it is all based on a rumor or lies that occured over 2000 years ago, it would have died a long time ago as "the fad" grew old.
Multiple posts I know, but...

Why would it have grown old? In terms of religions it is young. The Hebbrew faith outlives it by over 3700 years apparently, and the Egyptian faith lasted at a minimum 3,000.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 12:37 AM
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Hey lapi7. Thanks. Peace be with you. So far the Christians here are talking nicely. No hostility. Besides, I think I got my christianity covered, as well as most other Christians. I (try my best to) love the Lord my God with all my heart, and all my soul, and all my mind.
xpert, I think Christ means Saviour, Messiah means annointed one (holy one?). Christ already saved much of humanity. He united many of them under 1 faith, he set down commandments of law which are (for the most part), very humane, AND, if you believe in God, he got people to follow the Lord their God. So he saved them already in some way. If Christian prophecies are to be believed, he will come again, and REALLY save everyone.



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 12:51 AM
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Hello babloyi and All.
Wow...this is wonderful that we can all discuss these issues in peace and understanding while still respecting our own beliefs and the beliefs of others. Yes babloyi, I believe that Christ is comming VERY SOON and on that Great Day we will all be united in His love...both for God and for each other! Praise The Lord!



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 12:53 AM
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Jesus may have been one of the first people to question why dont we help a follow man we he/she is down in the gutter . I dont think Jesus saved anyone he just gave people a means to get back on there feet.
How do we know what Jesus would have wanted if people used his name to suit there adgenda after his death?

For thouse people like me who didnt know who Clement was google turn this up.
Of the life and death of St, Clement nothing is known. The apocryphal Greek Acts of his martyrdom were printed by Cotelier in his "Patres Apost." (1724, I, 808; reprinted in Migne, P. G., II, 617, best edition by Funk, "Patr. Apost.", II, 28). They relate how he converted Theodora, wife of Sisinnius, a courtier of Nerva, and (after miracles) Sisinnius himself and four hundred and twenty-three other persons of rank. Trajan banishes the pope to the Crimea, where he slakes the thirst of two thousand Christian confessors by a miracle. The people of the country are converted, seventy-five churches are built. Trajan, in consequence, orders Clement to be thrown into the sea with an iron anchor
info

[edit on 22-4-2005 by xpert11]



posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
The other day I was pondering how the world had been suckered into bevling god exists.
Now heres my thoughts Jesus was a real person who had a great influnce on western society in effect if Jesus said something was a good idea it would be like a movie star endosing a prouduct today. After Jesus died people could say anything in his for example " Jesus his the sun of god." Those would have known full well that god dosnt exsit.

Now to my point who was the last member of the Cathlic church that knew the truth ? The lie about god as gone on for so long that it as been taken as truth by many.

Is it possable that the truth has been passed though the generations to a select few? Athough this seems unlikely it is a distrubing thought at best.

People have questioned the exitsance of since the time of the ancient greeks.
I understand how the idea of god came about it was away of explaing the unexplainable. Who or what group of people invented the idea of god?


Are you talking about the Judeo-Christian concept of God or mankind's belief in a god or gods in general?
Do you question the validity of other religions, i.e., Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.? Most athiests seem to attack the Christian faith as if it is the only one that teaches about the existence of a supreme, universal entity.

Mankind has worshipped god in one form or another since we began, and your claim that, just because you do not believe in a god, those who did and do have been knowingly lied to is quite narrow-minded. There is just as much of a chance that one or all of the gods people choose to worship exists, as there is that they don't.

As to your question about the Truth being passed down to a select few through the ages, I've no doubt that it has been. However, what I feel to be the Truth and what you hold as the Truth, are two totally different things.

From what I gather, you consider the Truth to be the knowlege that there is no such thing as a universal mind or godhead, and that religion has been used as a ploy to control the masses.
I, on the other hand, consider the Truth to be the understanding that the all-encompassing One is all that exists, that we are all just fragments, and that religion has been used as a ploy to control the masses.
The difference between us, however is not that I believe one way and you believe another; it is that I accept the possibility that I may very well be wrong, and you don't.


What person or group of people were the first to push there agenda in the name of god?


Like I said earlier, mankind has always worshipped some form of god. If you are wondering about the first person to promote the belief in a single, all-powerful diety, I believe it was Zoroaster around 551 b.c.





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