okay, i found what I believe to be the line.

Revelation 13:1-4
Then I saw a beast come out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads; on its horns were ten diadems , and on its heads blasphemous name[s]. The beast I saw was like a leopard, but it had feet like a bear's, and its mouth was like the mouth of a lion. To it the dragon(satan) gave its own power and throne, along with great authority. I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed. Fascinated, the whole world followed after the beast. They worsiped the dragon because it gave its authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast and said, "Who can compare with the beast or who can fight against it?"

Now, we go to the false prophet forcing people to worship the Anti-Christ because of the mortal head injury. At least i interpret this to be the false prophet, perhaps i am mistaken.

Revelation 13:11-17

Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb's but spoke like a dragon. It wielded all the authority of the first beast in its sight and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. It preformed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in sight of everyone. It decieved the inhabitants of the earth with the signs it was allowed to perform in the sight of the first beast, telling them to make an image for the beast who had been wounded by the sword and REVIVED. It was then permitted to breathe life into the beast's image, so that the beast's image could speak and could have anyone who did not worhip it put to death. It forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hand hands or their foreheads, so that no one could buy or sell except one who had the stamped image of the beast's name or the number that stood for it's name.

I think those make it quite clear that what I was saying was indeed correct.

On a side note, the beast isn't money. I say this because money was around during Jesus' time, and John, the writer of Revelation, would have justed used the word money, and not mark.

thanks ryan, i remember it now.

Later,
Digital Grl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
okay, i found what I believe to be the line

...yes, the anti-christ is supposed to hae a head injury that kills him, and then i believe the devil inhibits his body and he rises again. I believe that this is supposed to happen at the 3 1/2 year point

Does not equate to this:

I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been mortally wounded, but this mortal wound was healed. Fascinated, the whole world followed after the beast. They worsiped the dragon because it gave its authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast and said, "Who can compare with the beast or who can fight against it?"

First. The mortal wound was healed, and secondly, there is no inhabitation.

And yes, you are mistaken. It is better to post such claims knowing that due diligence has been performed than posting because it is what you think is correct. And if per chance it is this

It was then permitted to breathe life into the beast's image, so that the beast's image could speak and could have anyone who did not worhip it put to death.

which leads you to believe that it was possessed, then you have quite a problem with Genesis 2:7- And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;…Which, if your statement is as suggested, represents Satan’s ability to create life.





[edit on 4/27/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Okay first off, you are misunderstanding me. I was using the word believe as in i think that this is what is supposed to happen but i could be mistaken. Not I believe in God kinda sense. However, Satan isn't creating life, rather inhibiting it/taking it over. If it is as I say, Satan creates nothing. Perhaps the Anti-Christ starts out as a man who does things in the name of humanity, but deep down he is doing it for himself; name recognition and power. Then, perhaps he is shot in the head, which is the mortal wound, and dies. And when he dies, a being that is already alive, Satan, enters his body and takes over the dead body, but acts as if it is living. Nobody would know. Then the false prophet forces humanity to worship him

You have to understand, there is no way I can say you are right, or I am right, and vice versa. Revelation is a dream type deal, and is filled with metaphors upon metaphors. I dont know why you are getting so high strung about this, it is a matter of one's own interpretation. You asked me where I got my interpretation from and I showed you.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
Okay first off, you are misunderstanding me. I was using the word believe as in i think that this is what is supposed to happen but i could be mistaken.

And I am telling you that you are in fact, mistaken.

However, Satan isn't creating life, rather inhibiting it/taking it over. If it is as I say, Satan creates nothing. Perhaps the Anti-Christ starts out as a man who does things in the name of humanity, but deep down he is doing it for himself; name recognition and power. Then, perhaps he is shot in the head, which is the mortal wound, and dies. And when he dies, a being that is already alive, Satan, enters his body and takes over the dead body, but acts as if it is living. Nobody would know. Then the false prophet forces humanity to worship him

Review your testimony. Perhaps? When did satan become a man? Who died? When did satan enter the body?

Why is it necessary to create these possibilities just to soothe yourself? Why can man not be content with acknowledging that we are in absolute control of ourselves? Why is it that when we do good we take the credit, and when we are bad we blame it on some man-made demon?

You have to understand, there is no way I can say you are right, or I am right, and vice versa. Revelation is a dream type deal, and is filled with metaphors upon metaphors. I dont know why you are getting so high strung about this, it is a matter of one's own interpretation. You asked me where I got my interpretation from and I showed you.

But I can and do. Revelation was the dream of someone whom, were he to live today, would be called a kook and condemned to wear a straight-jacket. If I get "high-strung" in your eyes, it is because of the high-strung fallacies proffered by those of you who state your claims so vehemently, then support them with "perhaps."

[edit on 4/27/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

I personally believe in the Rapture. The Bible clearly teaches that such an event will occur. the Problem, I feel, with most present day rapture constructs, is there wrongful defeniton of the tribulation period. The real question is : what is the tribulation period?

When I read the book of Revelation I see a definite chronological order throughout. I see the Antichrist coming to power, unifing the world. Scripture clearly says that he will have power for 42 months, not 7 years. Revelation 13. During this time he will over come believers in Jesus; he will put them to death.

in Chapter 14 we are introduce to to different kinds of harvest one good and one bad. I firmly believe that these will occur at the end of the 42 month reign of anti christ. The first harvest is literal i.e. the rapture. i dont believe that we will escape the persecution of the anti christ as many exspect today, though I do believe some will some how manage to make it this far. Both the living and dead believers will be taken away. The second "harvest" I believe is figuretive. God is not removing evil men from the earth, rather he is trusting them into the final stages of human history. It is during this period that those who remain will experience the full wrath of God upon this earth. It is also during this time that God resolves issues with Isreal. During this time the final 7 plagues will be unleashed all culminating in Armegeddon and the Physical Return of Jesus Christ. ( in a very small nut shell) the rest of what the," name it and claim it" teachers feed the masses is just for profit!!!!


I dont have all the answeres to this, but i do know that a pre trib rapture construct is foolish at best. If we believe that such a senario is true we must believe that suddenly millions of non believers suddenly be come Christians after all the present christians are raptured. If not then we cannot explain the innumerable number of slain souls who stand before God in the book of Revelation who were said to be slain by the antichrist.

Be warned, beprepared, as a true Believer we all face a most certain future like that of nick berg. Even so I say let it happen quickly!


[edit on 27-4-2005 by Graystar]

hmmmm....well I may not be as well read as some here are.

but it is my understanding that 2/3rds of the jews will get wiped out 1st. [ the magog invasion ?]

after that sad event , the jews are supposed to ask Jesus to forgive them for not recognizing Him 2000 yrs ago, and ask Him to return.

and the muslim fanatics are trying to wipe out all of them [ the jews ] before that can happen !

where exactly the rapture falls in line with that I do not know.

The bible does not CLEARLY state that the rapture is going to happen.

In fact..if you study the original hebrew and ancient greek, the word rapture or christians will be taken, or anything like that is ever said. It is correlated to the 144,000 interpretation.

Belief in the rapture became popular in some Christian circles during the 1970s, in part thanks to the books of Hal Lindsey, including The Late Great Planet Earth. Many of Lindsey's predictions in that book, which assumed that the rapture was imminent, were based on world conditions at the time. The Cold War figured prominently in their predictions of Armageddon, and other aspects of 1970s global politics were seen as having been predicted in the Bible. Lindsay believed, for example, that the 10-headed beast cited in Revelation was the European Economic Community, which at the time consisted of ten nations.

Many Christians continue to believe in the rapture, with their interpretations of biblical eschatology having been updated to reflect changes in world conditions


I think the bible states that there is no rapture.....


Matthew24:14-19 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
"So WHEN you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!


matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, BUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT those days will be shortened.

Matthew 24:26-34 26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[a]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


So the above versus says Jesus will not appear to take us away until AFTER these things have happened. verse 34 says This generation will certianly not pass away UNTIL all these things have happened.


It is reiterated here in Luke 21:27-32

27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

also in 1 Thes. 4:14-17 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


Thes says we arent going up until the tribulation is over because that is when jesus comes back. so to me it is clear that there is no rapture.


There i have said my peace about why i believe there isnt one. I do not wish to fight with anyone about this. But i fill the rapture theory..which was developed in the 1970's predominatly.....does not coincide with the bible scripture..as i have shown.

Thank you for reading.

Kind Regards,
Digital Grl

And I am telling you that you are in fact, mistaken.

By whose standards? your own? Can you really say that your judgement is better than anyone else's currently on earth?

Review your testimony. Perhaps? When did satan become a man? Who died? When did satan enter the body?

Why is it necessary to create these possibilities just to soothe yourself? Why can man not be content with acknowledging that we are in absolute control of ourselves? Why is it that when we do good we take the credit, and when we are bad we blame it on some man-made demon?

I am at a loss for words. How on earth does the end of times soothe myself? Are you claiming that I dont take responsibility for my own actions because I believe in the Apocalypse? I sure hope not, that would be might arrogant of you. This isn't a testimony, it is an interpretation. I said perhaps because I, quite frankly, do not know. I have no way of knowing, I bet it is far different than I ever imagined it being. However, I interpret it to be ready just in case it is everything that I thought it was. I dont know where you get the idea that just because I am Christian I do not accept responsibilty for my actions. In fact, I thought that this was the whole point. You choose to sin, and thus you must repent for your actions. It is free-will. By the way, I never take credit for when I do something good, and I am always the first to admit when I screwed up, so go preach to someone else.

But I can and do. Revelation was the dream of someone whom, were he to live today, would be called a kook and condemned to wear a straight-jacket. If I get "high-strung" in your eyes, it is because of the high-strung fallacies proffered by those of you who state your claims so vehemently, then support them with "perhaps."

[edit on 4/27/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

No you don't. Yes I am willing to say perhaps. It shows that my words aren't infallible; where as you claim that you know for a fact what is going to happen. Who gave you such a power?


Please, don't go claiming you know when you don't. No one does except God, whether you choose to believe or not. This person wanted to discuss the end of times as it pretains to the bible. I am pretty sure they didn't want you telling people that their beliefs are wrong simply because you say so.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl


Digital Grl

hey digital Girl thank you for taking the time to write everything you did Im just to lazy to write the details you did.

Im not expecting a Rapture prior to what most call the Great tribulation- that Senario clearly does not line up with Scripture.

What Im advocating is that after Antichrist has come to power he is given a total of 42 months by God to reign. Alll Christians at that time will suffer unimaginable persecution he will slaughter many. At that time all will have decided where their loyalties lie-the mark is the last tumpet call!

as the 42 months reign ends I believe God will intervene as shown in Revelation 14-th;e harvesting of the grain. Simultaneously, God will trust the remaing in habbitants (excluding the jews who will be devinely protected as promisedat that time as shown in Revelation 12)into the final stages of this age.

At this time two distinct things will occur: Satan will turn his attention to the Jews- because there are no more christians to persecute Similarly God will poor out the remaining 7 last plagues. and these two events will end in Armeggedon as all nations are drawn by devine appoint ment.


In a nut shell my belief is that we will suffer under antichrist (immeasurably) for 42 months. The "gathering together with Chriist in the air," as paul says in one of his epistles, will occur at the end of that reign, leaving behind the remaining Jews ordaned by God to populate the earth during the 1000 year regin of Christ-the 144,000 named in my opinion. i know this says men here; I'm not clear why. I do believe they will be mankind of all races though as we have seen the jews were scattered abroad for so long. I believe that the reason Isreal stands to day is because God has devinely preserved the many races through the initial scattering and now gathering of the jewish people back to one place. can you imagine the woman (isreal) in revelation 12 trying to flee if she were still scattered abroad?

Also the remaining inhabbitants, all of which have the mark, are left behind to endure the final seven last plagues. I can t imagine any christians remaining at this point as the remaing plagues are judgement for sin...


this is the general sequence i see in Revelation and through out the other passages concerning these events, as well as your Scripture references.


[edit on 28-4-2005 by Graystar]

Originally posted by Graystar

Im not expecting a Rapture prior to what most call the Great tribulation- that Senario clearly does not line up with Scripture.

]

The 24 elders in the Revelation is the church(born again believers ). We see them in heaven before the events of Revelation start. Then there is the great multitude in Rev. ch. 7. They are people that come to Christ during the tribulation period.

A taking of believers to heaven before the actual tribulation time is going to happen. There are MANY others verses in the Bible telling of this.

Originally posted by dbrandt
A taking of believers to heaven before the actual tribulation time is going to happen. There are MANY others verses in the Bible telling of this.

...show us those verses...

You mentioned Rev. 7. But here's the verse you're refering to:
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

1. It says they came out of great tribulation, not "The Great Tribulation".
2. Even if it did mean "The Great Tribulation", it says they came out of it. Which means they went through it. Which means they weren't taken before it.

Rev. 6 also mentions these people.
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is after the 5th seal was open.....meaning the tribulation period had already begun.


Hey a pre trib rapture would be great. I just can't find where people are getting that from....

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenI am at a loss for words. How on earth does the end of times soothe myself?

By the very fact that you desperately wish to believe that your religious leanings will save your soul. By the very fact that you show that you are unwilling to actually read and try to understand that which is written in the book because you wish to only see it one way, and offer up as your proof unfounded claims such as; “then i believe the devil inhibits his body and he rises again.” which you have yet to support.

Are you claiming that I dont take responsibility for my own actions because I believe in the Apocalypse?

Yes, in fact I am, and I make the claim not just to you, but to all who cast aside good old fashioned reason and logic in favour of medieval superstition and myth. In this case I specifically speak of the Satan driven woes of humankind hocus pocus. You are no different to anyone else who would first and foremost attribute your good deeds to yourself, but when it comes to bad deeds, it’s Satan’s fault. The pathos of this is to abrogate God when it comes to the former and embrace Satan when it comes to the latter, which when dissected discloses the ignorant natures of the philosophy: God does not cause man to do good he only gave us the choice, but Satan causes man to do evil; Satan can possess man, but God does not possess man; Satan obviously must be more powerful then than God.

This isn't a testimony, it is an interpretation.

And your interpretation is baseless, for nowhere does it state that anyone will be possessing anyone or anything, and to further such beliefs is to propagate one more fairy tale molded and suited to what you want to believe. It is your soothing blanket.

No you don't. Yes I am willing to say perhaps. It shows that my words aren't infallible; where as you claim that you know for a fact what is going to happen. Who gave you such a power?

The almighty creator did, and he gave me nothing that he did not give to anyone else. The difference is that I use it as was intended and have not and never will abandon same and sign over my freewill to any human attempting to tell me that their 2nd century recreation of Satan has any basis in fact, even when measured against the fables within the OT.

. This person wanted to discuss the end of times as it pretains to the bible. I am pretty sure they didn't want you telling people that their beliefs are wrong simply because you say so.

Is this not what you have done? How can one discuss the topic without scrutinizing same? If one looks only for support of one side, an open discussion board that is not affiliated with any one religious belief is not the place to look for such support.

I am certain that I would be absolutely correct when I say that all those still believing that Revelation speaks to a future event, have never ever bothered to ask themselves if it was in fact speaking to past events, nor did they ever take the time to do the research.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenI am at a loss for words. How on earth does the end of times soothe myself?

By the very fact that you desperately wish to believe that your religious leanings will save your soul. By the very fact that you show that you are unwilling to actually read and try to understand that which is written in the book because you wish to only see it one way, and offer up as your proof unfounded claims such as; “then i believe the devil inhibits his body and he rises again.” which you have yet to support.

Yes, in fact I am, and I make the claim not just to you, but to all who cast aside good old fashioned reason and logic in favour of medieval superstition and myth. In this case I specifically speak of the Satan driven woes of humankind hocus pocus. You are no different to anyone else who would first and foremost attribute your good deeds to yourself, but when it comes to bad deeds, it’s Satan’s fault. The pathos of this is to abrogate God when it comes to the former and embrace Satan when it comes to the latter, which when dissected discloses the ignorant natures of the philosophy: God does not cause man to do good he only gave us the choice, but Satan causes man to do evil; Satan can possess man, but God does not possess man; Satan obviously must be more powerful then than God.

You not only insult me, but you insult over 3 billion people. I say 3 billion because if this is a medieval superstition than surely Islam's belief, which is very similar, is a superstition. So, you are placing yourself on a higher pedestal than half the world, and that isn't including all the other religions that believe in these "silly" events happening. Last I checked, YOU are the minority. And my beliefs have nothing to do with how I act when I do something wrong, or something right, that is just you acting arrogant. And by saying Satan can possess man, thus making him more powerful is completely inaccurate. You don't think God can possess a man? The whole point of freewill, which he gave to you, is that he doesn't want to control you. God could possess Satan if he felt the need to. But taking over something to get the desired results isn't exactly righteous now is it? God is righteousness, thus he lets you decide how you want to live. Satan is evil, and wants to control how you live for his own self. Do you see how this works? I am willing to bet you do, even if you continue to argue this. Do you honestly believe that I blame Satan for the choices I make? Do you really believe that Satan forced me to do that even runs through my head?Would something like that run through your head? Blaming Satan would not only be immature, but not truthful to the word. God did give us freewill, and because of this we must take responsibilities for our own actions. Now, quit acting like you know how I act in real life, you don't know me personally. And don't stereotype a religion because you have some personal issue with it.

And your interpretation is baseless, for nowhere does it state that anyone will be possessing anyone or anything, and to further such beliefs is to propagate one more fairy tale molded and suited to what you want to believe. It is your soothing blanket.

And yours isn't? Your interpretation is that God is wrong, and you are right. You are acting very arrogant.

The almighty creator did, and he gave me nothing that he did not give to anyone else. The difference is that I use it as was intended and have not and never will abandon same and sign over my freewill to any human attempting to tell me that their 2nd century recreation of Satan has any basis in fact, even when measured against the fables within the OT.

And because I believe in something I am dumb? Or I am not using my brain? You are exuding hatred and arrogance. Nothing has basis in fact in regards to this, not even science, and especially not your opinion. Your statements seem to be hypocritical.

. Is this not what you have done? How can one discuss the topic without scrutinizing same? If one looks only for support of one side, an open discussion board that is not affiliated with any one religious belief is not the place to look for such support.

I am certain that I would be absolutely correct when I say that all those still believing that Revelation speaks to a future event, have never ever bothered to ask themselves if it was in fact speaking to past events, nor did they ever take the time to do the research.

correct, you scrutinized, you asked me for a source, and I made the mistake of giving it to you. I thought you were going to see where I got it from, instead the only reason you asked for a source was to try to pick it apart and bask in your own "righteousness." However, Revelations, as many scholars would agree, speaks of the past, present(his present), and future. So, I woud say that you are mistaken.

Listen, as much as you would like to say that you know for a fact, the truth is you don't. You claiming you do only screams arrogance and immaturity. I would bet that you are neither arrogant or immature, but you this post sure would say otherwise. I never claimed to know for a fact how the end would come, and it is my personal belief that I have the end kind of close as to how it will actually happen, as I said multiple times. You saying you are using your brain and I am not, this is ridiculous. do you say this to everyone who doesn't agree with you. I have had some very distinct experiences with God, which have shown me that believing is better than not; even if some of the scripture is wrong. You say my claims are foundationless, yet I have a man who met the prophecies of the Christ, as far as can be proven which they can't either way, who tells me they are not. You have yourself. So, in my book that is 2 against 1, and last i checked majority rules! j/k.

[edit on 28-4-2005 by Ryanp5555]

[edit on 28-4-2005 by Ryanp5555]

I still dont agree with the rapture based on what you have given me. Because 144,000 is referred to in chapter 7 of revelation AFTER all the seals have been opened in CH. 6. and it clearly states that the 144,000 represent the 12 tribes of israel in Revaltion 7:4

And i think the passage about the white robes that you brought up which is mentioned after the 144,000 to me clearly represents martyrs....(not to be mistaken with the catholic concept of saints. ) Here is the verse so you can see where i am coming from :
Revelation 7:9-30
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."


To conclude my thoughts on this i would just like to reiterate that Revelations cannot be 100% interpreted by anyone in my opinon. BEcause if someone could then i believe it would be easier or maybe make someone be able to define a definite time when this will occur ..do you get what i am saying? So really this topic of rapture is merely based on ones interpretation of the scripture in revelation and i dont think any theologian can say 100% that it will or will not occur because it is a divine vision from God.. to me...sent to show us that Christ is coming back to take all the people that believe in him....to give us hope. The rest i feel is beyond human comprehension. And thats why he tells us to wait..and watch because it will come like a thief in the night. And to me...if any of us were to be able to unlock EVERY single meaning and occurence that happens within this book.....I dont think we would have to be on much of a guard anymore..does that make sense??

like i said....its just my opinon.

Thanks for your reponses

Kind Regards,
Digital Grl

I like what paperclip had to say about this. I never thought of it that way, that the mark could be what is on our minds.....very clever. I assumed it would be a literal mark or something.

Thanks for shedding some new light regarding the mark of the beast.

faeryland

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Originally posted by dbrandt
...show us those verses...

You mentioned Rev. 7. But here's the verse you're refering to:
1. It says they came out of great tribulation, not "The Great Tribulation".
2. Even if it did mean "The Great Tribulation", it says they came out of it. Which means they went through it. Which means they weren't taken before it.

....

I certainly don't mean this in a mean way, so don't take it that way, I'm just replying. You seem to indicate that you would believe it if the word "the" was there. That doesn't make sense to me. Great is there and tribulation is there and they are even together in the sentence so I think it's quite obvious that God is talking about the great tribulation.


"out of" can mean through and it can also mean away from, but yes there are going to be people who experience the tribulation and place their faith in Jesus Christ.

Now focus on the 24 elders which are a different group than the great multitude. The elders are a specific set amount of people. It's not 23 and it's not 25, it's 24, a specific number. This is the Church(not the catholic church), but believers who have been born again through the salvation found in Christ.

24 is "symbolic". There are more than 24 people in the church, that is not what I'm saying. But it's "symbolic" for the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. There are two kinds of people in the world according to the Bible, Jews and Gentiles. Jews and Gentiles who have trusted Christ for their salvation are who makes up the church. That's waht it is symbolic for.

Now more info on the 24 elders. Go to Revelation 1:1-6 The Bible is "mainly" read by christians and so in verse 6 John tells christians that God has made us to be kings and priests.

Now Revelation 4:1 and we have a door opened in heaven and a "trumpet" and God says "Come up Here"(the church taken to heaven).

Now go to Revelation 4:4 and we see first mention of the 24 elders with "white raiment" and "crowns".

Now Revelation 5:-10 The 24 elders There's alot here but I have to go to a meeting so I can't finish this all but in verse 10 the 24 elders say that God has made them to be kings and priests(The same thing in Rev. 1:6 that is written to believers in Christ).

Now getting back to the church being a specific number of individuals. Go to Romans 11:25 It clearly tells that a specific number of gentiles will come to faith in Christ then God will turn Himself back to dealing with Israel.

I will post this and finish later, as there is way more on the rapture being before the tribulation and the "church" is a specific group of people. All believers in Christ are saints but not all saints are in the "church".

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
You not only insult me, but you insult over 3 billion people. I say 3 billion

I have no problem insulting whatever number believes in this tripe if that is how you deem it to be. When you spout your rhetoric about being saved only by Jesus you insult more than twice that of the actual number which is far shy of 3 billion. And from what I see on this site alone, and by your definition, I would insult more than 6 times whatever Christian side holds itself in high esteem over all others, considering that Catholics versus non-Catholics seem to equally detest each other.

because if this is a medieval superstition than surely Islam's belief, which is very similar, is a superstition.

I suppose you have not yet absorbed my philosophy despite our sharing numerous threads, so allow me to repeat it for you: The Bible beginning with Genesis 1:1, pertains to the various stages of Egyptian religion, and since I hold no reverence to saying; Amen to Amen, you may rest assured I find every religion forged from any character in the good book to be equally detestable.

So, you are placing yourself on a higher pedestal than half the world,

No, only with those who hold fast to praying to pagan gods.

Last I checked, YOU are the minority.

Last I checked, the Egyptian Gods were the majority, followed by the Greek gods, followed by the Roman gods. I have no problem being the minority. In fact, I venture to say that the true God, mine, would not be ruling by vote.

And my beliefs have nothing to do with how I act when I do something wrong, or something right, that is just you acting arrogant.

Yes they do, and despite your denial, your arrogance is no less than mine.

And by saying Satan can possess man, thus making him more powerful is completely inaccurate.

Excellent! We agree on something. He can no more possess you and cause you to act against your will than God can. But you should be more attune to your own position, for previously you claimed you do not credit yourself for doing good, which means that you credit God, which them means that you are not in control. So much for the freewill theory Christians spout.

You don't think God can possess a man?

See above, and contemplate same. Either you have freewill or you do not, please decide.

God is righteousness, thus he lets you decide how you want to live. Satan is evil, and wants to control how you live for his own self. Do you see how this works?

Yes, God is righteous, whereas Satan is a figment of of your imagination. So no, your way is not how it works.

I am willing to bet you do, even if you continue to argue this.

Espousing psychic abilities now? You will lose!

Do you honestly believe that I blame Satan for the choices I make?

Kindly preach that to your fellow Christians, that is after all my position.

Now, quit acting like you know how I act in real life, you don't know me personally. And don't stereotype a religion because you have some personal issue with it.

Lesson number 2. Quit acting like you know how non-Christians act, and trust me, if you did I will never bother you, no matter your faith.

And yours isn't? Your interpretation is that God is wrong, and you are right. You are acting very arrogant.

No it is not, it is in fact far more intellectually researched than yours would be. By the way, have you found the text I have asked for at least twice previously in support of your position?

And because I believe in something I am dumb? Or I am not using my brain?

Not entirely, and given your false representation re the above, you really do not want me to answer that do you?

You are exuding hatred and arrogance.

Yes I am, and I can, and I can continue to do so because after all these posts of yours where I asked a simple question, you have yet to support your premise with something more than "perhaps" or " I believe" and have opted instead to launch into this one-way road leading far away from the initial question just so you can avoid showing you knew not of what you wrote.

correct, you scrutinized, you asked me for a source,...I made the mistake of giving it to you...

You gave me no source, you should have acknowledged same instead of digging this hole for yourself, Mistake? so you would have rather lied or not support your faith?

Listen, as much as you would like to say that you know for a fact, the truth is you don't.

The closest you would ever come to posting anything factual is found in that statement, where, if I don't, neither do you. Understand that as long as you and others proffer your beliefs as truth, I and those like me will call you on the carpet. It really is that simple.

I have had some very distinct experiences with God, which have shown me that believing is better than not; even if some of the scripture is wrong.

Note the bolded part of your statement, and endeavour to separate what you innately know from that which you willingly swallow.

You say my claims are foundationless, yet I have a man who met the prophecies of the Christ,

What prophecies might they be? Have you discredited yourself once again?

-20=)

Regards.





[edit on 4/29/05 by SomewhereinBetween]