He is already a lame duck gov that can't run again anyway and eventhough we are all upset with the deficit we are facing, a recall election will just add $30mil more to that indebtedness!!

This is just a rediculous waste of taxpayers money, especially since all of the deficit was created by the price gouging by Enron & the ilk of that bane on society that the "repugnants" (thanx Col) allowed to happen without any intervention.

Also causing this is the massive layoffs and moving of good paying American jobs to Asian Pacific nations and China by the money-grubbing repugnant supporters that run the California Corporations. With so many people out of work for over 2 years now, the state is losing all of the tax revenue that their incomes would generate as well as the corporate tax money that is now shielded by doing business outside the US.

The US should penalize US companies that don't employ at least 50% of thier workforce inside the US by removing tax breaks and sweetheart land use deals.
If you do not employ people within the US you should not have access to the lower US corporate taxes. Force them to move thier incorporation to the foriegn soil they are producing/employing in and be forced to pay the 50%+ tax rates of these Asian-Pacific nations they so covet for the cheap labor costs.

Even the govt contracts that were by law required to be built by Americans in the lower 48 has been overturned by shrub and his criminal cronies. Our troops are now being forced to use equipment and supplies from enemy nations such as the Muslim led Asian-Pacific countries of Malaysia and Singapore and the Red Chinese.

Issa can attempt to heap blame on Gray Davis but it is the idiots who are in charge from his own party that have caused the lions share of California's problems.
Issa is a piece of work himself, a former car thief whose rich daddy bought his way out of trouble (sound familiar?) is paying with his own ill-gotten riches to fund this recall, money that is matched dollar for dollar by the taxpayers hard earned wages!!!!!

What an absolute travesty of justice!!!



[Edited on 24-7-2003 by USMC Harrier]

Wow, have you consider sending the piece you posted to the DNC? If not, I strongly urge you to. I'm sure they could use this slant on their woes put into such remarkable diction. You managed , in one paragraph to blame the entire mess that Davis has created in the opposing party. I mean, you insinuate that Enron's injustices are the fault of Bush, then gov. of Texas while Robert Rubin of the Clinton cabinet ran interference for the whole operation. Then you subsequently blame the GOP for the Red Chinese? Who sold them Nuclear secrets again? Who believes the US should not be the lone superpower? Who thinks we should have equal enemies for balance? Who signed into law NAFTA which moved jobs out of the country?

Look, I realize that in our current situation, nationally, that Bush is at the helm and thus must take blame for the current recession. Regardless of the actions by your predecessors, if you're riding the horse when it throws a shoe, you're the guy who has to re-shoe it no matter who rode it before you.

To make the claim that Davis' shortcomings and ultra-liberal agenda which has been in control long enough to cause this mess are somehow being victimized (oh yes, the victim strategy again) by an administration who had nothing to do with the actions which have brought about this current situation save for rejecting making the rest of the US tax-payers foot the bill for this mess(Thanks for that one) is completly invalid, yet you place it so ellequently that i was tempted to jump on board and if I were someone completely unknowledgable of the situation, you'd be signing me up right now.

Well done, well done indeed.

However, the nation as a whole can and is learning something from this. Well, all except for my state's governor who put a 10 year halt on power plant construction. Hopefully, whoever replaces that guy, (now known as the "love gov") will have an ounce of sense enough to realize that such decisions don't take into account the long-term growing needs of technology and the populace and a whole.

All of the Enron crap happened in 2001 & 2002, in the first 2 years of shrubs admin, not during Clintons!!!

Again the right wrangles the dates and restructures time to allow all woes that befall our nation today to be blamed on the former regime!!!

Nice!!! Check your calendar please!!

Our Econ was doing wonderfully here in Cali when Billl was prez. Since shrub took over he has found every possible way to dirt the people of California because he lost our great state during the 2000 elections.

No matter how rich or powerful the SoCal GOP is, the vast majority of this state is democratic and that just pisses shrub off to no end!!!! BUMMER DUDE!!!!

Again with the passing secrets to China crap, this was done by Chinese agents working on false papers at LosAlamos/NM & LivermoreLabs/CA. No connection could ever be found to Clintons admin yet the righties continually imply one without proof. Spying goes on all the time, even by our so-called allies like the Israeli's and the Russians. Espionage is going to happen, and don't be suprised when in 5 years the History Channel uncovers operations that are happening right under shrubs nose too!!!

As for my providing printage for the DNC, I am the assistant director for the DNC in the North County district. I have lots of free time these days after being laid-off by my employer of 20 years, along with 7500 of my fellow employees over the last 18 months.

So look out shrub, we are gunning for you and I have you squarely in my sights!!!!



[Edited on 24-7-2003 by USMC Harrier]

Originally posted by USMC Harrier
All of the Enron crap happened in 2001 & 2002, in the first 2 years of shrubs admin, not during Clintons!!!

Nice!!! Check your calendar please!!

I suggest you check yours.
The dates that you give were the dates that Enron was exposed.
They were naughty boys long before that.

"All of the Enron crap happened in 2001 & 2002, in the first 2 years of shrubs admin, not during Clintons!!! "


Ah, should have known you were on the inside track of the DNC. Not certain about twisting the Enron thing..seeing as how the loan from citycorp ( of which Mr. Rubin is now getting 40 million a year to consult on ..em some things) was taken in 1998..and if we could get the committee investigating Enron to call some of the people who were actually involved at the time to testify..like Mr. Rubin, we might just find out what happened there. Now, I will admit that through Mr. Rubin's failure to use his influence (though he tried hard) to gain another pass for Enron's officials to list that loan as a pre-pay from citycorp was the cause of their collapse did in fact happen during the Bush administration. Now as for watching out for Bush, I could care less. I'm actually a democrat but I'm a democrat that is tired of what our party has become and what it now stands for.

As for my calendar, it probably goes back just a little bit farther than yours..as it doesn't start at the 2000 election. Check your facts, I think you'll see when all the Enron stuff began. i do agree with you, however, on where it ended. I am also aware of California's position prior to the recession...I am also aware of countless warnings that began as early as 1997 of what was to come if you guys didn't build some freaking power plants. Yeah, thats right...Starbucks need electricity brew java. Never seen that one a comin' did ya? Who knew...maybe you all could persuade Babs Streisand to give up some kilowatts. Just a thought.

Astro: First, the old well worn debating device of saying your a member of such and such organization or party, and then going into a diatribe of "this is wrong and I must speak out" and "I can not stand by my party on this issue", is both comically false and obviously disingenuous. State that you're a Republican, Libertarian or Centrist or whatever you actually are, and be done with it. You are no Democrat. I catch slack because I call myself a Centrist, but I voted for Reagan once, was behind the McCain for President campaign and vote Republican locally, except for Senate. Pete King is even a friend ( who I would had voted for and who would have won, but the Fascist form of republicanism that marks Bush-topia wanted a SS drone in Rick Lazio). I stated before, based on the unwillingness of all but a scant few Republicans to denounce bad policy choices at every turn by this administration, I am staunchly anti-Republican.
The price fixing over power in CA began and ended under Bush, as is the continued blocking of prosecution. Par for the course.
As to this recall farce, chalk it up to Republican "integrity" like the Starr escapades that blew $70 M and took 1000 Agents from searching for terror cells & put them on pubic hair hunts. That all forms of economic despair will befall the great unwashed is on no concern to our Plutocratic republulicans.

Sorry to disappoint Bout Time but I'm a card carrying member. So are most of my family and absolutly none of us are behind..gun control, abortion, gay rights,(or the rights of any one group in society over the other based on anything other than individual self application), cell phone bans, SUV bans ( because we now know global warming is a farce). In short Bout Time, we still believe in the democratic way of life. I guess your point holds water to say I'm no democrat if you try to insert me into the neo-communist movement whom have chosen to hijack this party. Are we traitors to the party? Maybe, but I'd say those who intend to keep a party on its original intended purpose are not traitors but guardians of its basic philosphy. You may have found a saviour in Bill Clinton but I got something totally different than I signed up for. Its these kinds of people who see the party as a catalyst to propell themselves above others and the worst part which we are now seeing (although you may be in denial) is that they do it at the expense of a what they see as an expendable resource.

Oh please,the guy pissed away 9 billion dollars. What difference does it make if more is spent to re call him. All things considered,its just a drop in the bucket. Believe it or not I did vote for him the firtst time. It was the lesser of 2 evils. Dan Lundgren was a nazi. But time and time again Davis has squandered our money,made terrible calls when it came to our energy crisis. We have had to live with brown outs.(where they came up with that phrase I'll never know:puzOutragous eletric bills,and taxed into the poor house.
All I have to Davis is don't let the door hit ya in the a$$.
Maybe he go to New York and run for govenor,the BT can turly appreciate him.

Restructure the government and move closer to France's model of elections? Sign me up!!
Though both my brother and niece are gay, I don't advocate special anti-bias legislation. I do favor gun control from a registration stand point. I own a Tahoe, so no SUV ban for me....but, there should be a minimum saftey cage standard that keeps these Asian soda cans off the road, as well as roll over standards. Global warming a farce? Yup, keep that one alive right next to the Chinese-stolen under Reagan-tested under Bush-Nuke plan-blame Clinton fairy tale!

Nyeff
What more can A FEW MORE TEN'S OF $MILLIONS HURT!?!?!
Dude, spoken like a true Bush man! That the whole artificial shortage of energy was ochestrated and not his to control is lost on you?
No thanks, we have clusterf**k emeritus, George Pataki, screwing things up in NY quite nicely - we look to get relief by getting close to CA unemployment rates! forget about property taxes!

Quote from astro:
Its these kinds of people who see the party as a catalyst to propell themselves above others and the worst part which we are now seeing (although you may be in denial) is that they do it at the expense of a what they see as an expendable resource.
=====================================

You call yourself a democrat but you sure sound like a republican.

If you consider watching out for the little guy, the incredible shrinking America middle class as an expendable resource you're looking at the wrong party!

As far as "holding themselves above all others" this is a patented repugnant move, where as the rich "haves" are always considered first & above the "have nots", since we (the have nots) can't donate $1mil per to their elitist religious-politico causes and campaign funds.

You can call yourself whatever you please but without the fire burning in your heart for REAL reform of the elitist status quo and toppling once and for all the religious-politico machine, your just a repugnant in sheeps clothing to me.

A return to what the founding fathers intended with a real and true separation of church & state is the only way to have real govt by & for ALL the people!!

PEACE

[Edited on 24-7-2003 by USMC Harrier]

Our energy crisis was a long time in coming. CA went through a period of homegrowth that is truely staggering. Houses and businesses were built anywhere there was a peice of land. But no new power supplies were figured in. Plus during the sametime the amount of people coming here sky rocketed.
I do not believe that was any kind of conspiracy between Bush, Enron and Davis. Just terrible mismangement from our state government. You also need to keep in mind that the recall has 1.3 million signatures on it. They are not all republicians that signed it. The majority of the state,dem,rep,and others want him gone. And yes BT, it is a drop in the bucket. I have heard it will cost upward of 25 million before the recall is finished. Compared to the 9 billion we started off with. Whats the differance,we are screwed no matter what happens.

I would beg to differ who the elitist are and who they dole out the millions for....

Washington Times Op-Ed: The Richest 1%
Dateline: December 18, 2002
Headline: The richest 1 percent
Byline: The Washington Times

So much for Republicans being the party of the wealthy. According to a new study by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, that moniker more appropriately belongs to the Democrats. "Republicans raised more than Democrats from individuals who contributed small and medium amounts of money during the 2002 election cycle," the report notes, "but Democrats far outpaced Republicans among deep-pocketed givers." Among donors who gave more than $200 but less than $1,000, Republicans enjoyed a substantial $68 million to $44 million edge over Democrats. The margin was closer among those individuals who gave $1,000 or more: The GOP took in $317 million, compared to the Democrats' $307 million.

But among the fabulously wealthy, the Democrats cleaned house. Donors of $10,000 or more gave $140 million to Democrats, while only $111 million went to Republicans. Among those individuals who gave $100,000 or more, the Democrats raised $72 million compared to the Republicans' $34 million. And when it comes to the millionaires' club - those kicking in $1 million or more - the Democratic Party skunked the GOP, $36 million to $3 million. Needless to say, despite the near-parity in overall amounts - $384 million to the Republicans vs. $350 million to the Democrats - the number of individual donors to the GOP exceeded those to the Democratic Party by more than 40 percent.

In other words, in 2002 a select group of bigwigs dumped big money into Democratic causes, while a broad base of folks donated respectable [but not overwhelming] amounts to Republican candidates. That goes a long way toward explaining the Democrats' shallow support in the midterm elections, and should give an indication of which party's agenda has been hijacked by the big money-men.

But it also sheds light on the president's first round of tax cuts - arguably the highest-profile domestic referendum in the midterm elections. We can't help but notice that only those who are so stinking rich that money doesn't matter supported the Democrats' opposition to tax cuts. Meanwhile, the many more who form the backbone of America's economy supported the Republicans. As the White House and congressional Republicans prepare a new tax package, we hope they bear that in mind. And just to show that there are no hard feelings, we'll still support tax cuts for the limousine liberals. With all that extra change in their pockets, maybe they'll put it to more productive uses than propping up the rejected policies of the Democratic Party.





That should answer all your allegations from my concern for the American middle class of which I am a member to my explaination of why I think elitist have taken control of this party. The old have vs have nots class warfare is simply been used to promote these false accusations.

"You can call yourself whatever you please but without the fire burning in your heart for REAL reform of the elitist status quo and toppling once and for all the religious-politico machine, your just a repugnant in sheeps clothing to me. "

Yes, lets please reform from the elitist status quo..and I could give a damn what I am to you. I have a clear understanding of the Constitution and what this country should be and have no need for advice from some highschool drop-out movie-star elitist.

"A return to what the founding fathers intended with a real and true separation of church & state is the only way to have real govt by & for ALL the people!! "


Yeah, we all know the founding fathers weren't men of reverence to God don't we. That separation of Church and State has been taken so far out of its original intended context it isn't funny anymore.

[Edited on 24-7-2003 by astrocreep]

A few rich hollywierd supporters with too much money is not the antithesis of the entire party!!

Do you have a job or a career that has been taken from you?

I have and so have many of my friends!!

Do you care more about money than people?

This whole discussion has left me feeling like the repugnants have everyone believing their propaganda, including some of my fellow democrats.

I guess this just proves once more that we have a serious need for a viable third party, rather than being forced to cast our precious vote for the lesser of two evils or a side of the same single coin.

I understand your disillusionment and I share some of it as well but I refuse to abandon my ideals and steadfastly refuse to help the right-wing agenda in anyway with my vote.

"Ours is a very tattered union", Jefferson Davis during his acception speech to become the first and only president of the confederacy.

USMC, okay man. Enough of this. I find it difficult to disagree with much or your last post. Yes, I have had career changes forced upon me as well although its been a few years..I think 93' or so. I want to wish you luck in finding a better career that you will like better. I stumbled over a couple of jobs I didn't care much for but in 98 I found my current one which I like. I know what its like. Perhaps one day we can persuade our hollywood millionares that if they are going to lead a charge in political thought , they could use a few thousand to educate themselves so they can understand the economic structure they are happlessly trying to destroy.

Originally posted by USMC Harrier
A few rich hollywierd supporters with too much money is not the antithesis of the entire party!!

Do you have a job or a career that has been taken from you?

I have and so have many of my friends!!

Do you care more about money than people?

This whole discussion has left me feeling like the repugnants have everyone believing their propaganda, including some of my fellow democrats.

I guess this just proves once more that we have a serious need for a viable third party, rather than being forced to cast our precious vote for the lesser of two evils or a side of the same single coin.

I understand your disillusionment and I share some of it as well but I refuse to abandon my ideals and steadfastly refuse to help the right-wing agenda in anyway with my vote.

"Ours is a very tattered union", Jefferson Davis during his acception speech to become the first and only president of the confederacy.

What field are you in? If you're in Information Technology, I can help and likely have assignments from North CA down to and including Mexico. Let me know.