Golden Dawn groups and their descendants

Let's try this instead.

We've talked else-thread about FLO, BOTA, and OTO. But I don't find much about the Golden Dawn on ATS. Have we forgotten about these secret societies?

There are so many "original and only true" Golden Dawn groups around that they qualify for their own flea-market of conspiracy theories.

Does anyone have experience with these groups or theories as to what it is that keeps them going despite the fairly short life of their orginator-system? Occult bookstores sure as heck owe alot to the Golden Dawn since fully 2/3 of what they sell is either by Golden Dawn members or inspired by Golden Dawn writings.

Originally posted by driley

Does anyone have experience with these groups or theories as to what it is that keeps them going despite the fairly short life of their orginator-system? Occult bookstores sure as heck owe alot to the Golden Dawn since fully 2/3 of what they sell is either by Golden Dawn members or inspired by Golden Dawn writings.

The number one reason above all others is Israel Regardie. He published the The rituals and teachings of the Stella Matutina (one of the offshoots of the original Golden Dawn) in a 4 volume book called The Golden Dawn. (His later book "The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic" included the rituals of the original Golden Dawn)

As for what keeps it going.. It's pretty simple, It's the BEST source of the Esoteric Western Magical Tradition bar none.

[edit on 4/17/2005 by Cug]

Isn't it pretty well acknowledged by now that the Cipher documents that started the Golden Dawn were fakes?

If so, how legit can the tradition be?

And how reliable can the tradition be if our source for it is an Oathbreaker?

Originally posted by driley
Isn't it pretty well acknowledged by now that the Cipher documents that started the Golden Dawn were fakes?

If so, how legit can the tradition be?

There is no sign the cipher documents were fakes. There is a question whether Soror S.D.A. (Fraulein Anna Sprengel) and the communications with her are true. But IMHO that doesn't effect the validity of the cipher documents as they pretty much stand on their own.



And how reliable can the tradition be if our source for it is an Oathbreaker?

First Regardie was an oathbreaker and he did take a lot of heat for it when the books were published. But he felt that the order was on the brink of self-distruction and this was the only way to preserve the knowledge for future generations. Turns out he was right.

Ad for the reliability of the documents.. Many of the original documents are out there in the hands of collectors and they are the same.

Regardie and especially Crowley turned away from the Golden Dawn, probably when they realised that Samuel L was mad and full of crock. Regardie and Crowleys work on interpretting the hidden mysteries and the codes was extraordinary.

The golden dawn owes much to Regardies book "The Golden Dawn" many people would not enjoy esoteria as much without that book because it was the first of modern occult to allow the minions to learn some of the secrets kept....well.....secret.

Crowleys work is often overlooked, gladly so I guess, he talks about it in "the book of the law' about the lamb being sent to fool the elite.

The Golden dawn today is a mass market. Where once practised by a few select people drawn together by the fascination of decoding and the forbidden occult, today membership is large, money is made and the truth, well it is still hidden.

I don't think much of them as when i kindly pointed out some of the newly decoded attributes that kinda threw their attributes out the window, they refused to post it to their list. I shrugged, and laughed and didn't bother again, I wasn't selling it to them, I was offering it for debate. The system they use is kinda not quite right. Created more than likely 2000 years ago. Times change, the Balance is bought back.

So yeah the Golden Dawn lives off what the masters like Crowley and Regardie left behind.



[edit on 18-4-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by Mayet
Regardie and especially Crowley turned away from the Golden Dawn, probably when they realised that Samuel L was mad and full of crock. Regardie and Crowleys work on interpretting the hidden mysteries and the codes was extraordinary.

While Crowley published some rituals in The Equinox when he decided that Mathers no longer had a connection to "the Secret Cheifs" it was limited to a print run of around 1000 copies.

Regardie's The Golden Dawn came along well after Mathers was dead and gone (1918). (In fact the Original Golden Dawn was gone by the time Regardie was born, in 1907). He published "The Golden Dawn" as 4 volumes one at a time from 1937 - 1940.

Edited to add:

Crowleys work is often overlooked, gladly so I guess, he talks about it in "the book of the law' about the lamb being sent to fool the elite.

Ummmm that is not in Liber Al the closest to that meaning might be

Al III,63. The fool readeth this Book of the Law, and its comment; & he understandeth it not.

[edit on 4/18/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Mayet
I don't think much of them as when i kindly pointed out some of the newly decoded attributes that kinda threw their attributes out the window, they refused to post it to their list.
[edit on 18-4-2005 by Mayet]

Newly decoded? Well, don't keep it to yourself, Mayet! Let the rest of in on what you've learned.

If the Golden Dawn groups currently around have degenerated (for the most part, at least) into degree-mills and for-profit schemes, where does someone who wants a good experience with the Western Mystery Tradition turn?

Cug might recommend OTO, but I suspect that even OTO would freely admit that it isn't for everyone... not even everyone who is ready for initiation into the Mysteries.

So, where else is there? Is there a "pure" stream left for those who thirst?

Originally posted by driley

If the Golden Dawn groups currently around have degenerated (for the most part, at least) into degree-mills and for-profit schemes, where does someone who wants a good experience with the Western Mystery Tradition turn?

What gives you this idea?

Cug might recommend OTO, but I suspect that even OTO would freely admit that it isn't for everyone... not even everyone who is ready for initiation into the Mysteries.

I'd recommend the OTO to Thelemites but still it's more of a social order than a teaching order.

So, where else is there? Is there a "pure" stream left for those who thirst?

Pretty much any order that uses the Golden Dawn name. There is even an online self-initiation lodge, (No cost.. other than buying a book it's based on but that's no big deal as you will find yourself buyingmany books no mater what you do. ) and if your close to the parent order lodge or are willing to travel you can get a "real" initiation.

EDIT:

I might add, that the information is out there, there is nothing stopping anyone from jumping right in group or no group.

[edit on 4/18/2005 by Cug]

Might find what you're looking for on this thread:

The Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn

The truth is a very elusive thing in that thread. Starting with the first post Crowley was never a Top Member, and the GD has nothing to do with sex magick.

But really it would take to much time correcting the misinformation on that thread. (Not counting the satanist claims that I would just ignore). But your short Crowley history was pretty good.

Originally posted by Cug
The truth is a very elusive thing in that thread. Starting with the first post Crowley was never a Top Member, and the GD has nothing to do with sex magick.

Well, it seems that Crowley was a very fast rising member. In fact, one of the fastest rising "stars" as it were.

We now return to Crowley who had been introduced to Mathers through the agency of a George Cecil Jones, a friend of Baker's, who also happened to be a member of the Golden Dawn. Crowley accepted Mather's invitation to join, and in November 1898, was initiated as a Neophyte 0° = 0° in the outer order of the Golden Dawn. He took the motto Perdurabo 'I will endure to the end', and was hence known as Frater Perdurabo.


One month later, he became a Zelator, and in the two following months he gained the next two grades. After a statutory period of latency he then achieved the rank of Philosiphus, and stood on the brink of the second order. This was amazing progress, in 6 months he had scaled the ranks of the outer order, and was soon to be a practising magician in the eyes of the Golden Dawn. It would have pleased him immensely, this was his type of order. He could gain new accolades at the drop of a pin, and be recognised as an adept, albeit by a select few.

www.geocities.com...

As for the sex majick...no, the Order uses Egyptian style majick from the textbook I read.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Well, it seems that Crowley was a very fast rising member. In fact, one of the fastest rising "stars" as it were.

Well star implies the they liked him.. other than Bennett and Jones, they didn't. (many were not happy with his choice of "sleepover" guests) Mathers put up with him because he supported mathers as the head of the order while the rest of the London folks were unhappy with mathers.

As for the sex majick...no, the Order uses Egyptian style majick from the textbook I read.

Egyptian style well that's kinda pushing it a bit, The GD system is a combination of primarily JudoChristian mysticism with some Egyptian myth thrown in for style (frankly it was "trendy" at the time). When Crowley went his own way he added eastern mysticism into the mix.

I got the idea that a lot of Golden Dawn groups were scams from... other Golden Dawn groups. Fratercide seems to be a fun new game for some of these groups.

I just think it is hard to tell from the outside what the value and honesty of these groups is. Maybe I'm just once-burnt, twice-shy, you know?

So, what standard would you suggest for evaluating an esoteric organization? How would an outsider know if this group is what it claims to be or simply something set up to make money for someone? How do you know if you have found someone who has preserved something worthwhile?

And, by the way, thanks for all the info already. It's worthwhile (even if the wireless network I'm on at the moment blocks about 2/3rd of Golden Dawn groups because they are "occult/cult" information).

For the most part you just have to activate your BS detector, and use common sense. If the group owns or rents a meeting space and has an extensive library members can check out books from and a ton of ritual items, monthly dues are going to be more than a group that meets in someones living room.

I have a feeling you have been reading about the people complaining about the cost of Pat Z's course. I don't know about anyone else but I don't think $100 a month is that bad when your getting personalized teaching from one of the "experts" in the field. (I'm thinking about taking a guitar building class from an expert.. that's about a grand+ a month, what's 100 bucks?) Any way the Trolls have been hitting him hard lately, but in a few months they will be pissed at another order, then another till they get back to Pat.

How do you know if you have found someone who has preserved something worthwhile?

Well basically all the golden dawn groups all have the same stuff. One changed things to a Thelemic point of view, another moved all the published stuff to the outer order and claims new "Secrets" for the inner order, others stick to the traditional way. (I'd personally prefer those).

Oh Fratercide is a old tradition It comes from the one danger of this stuff.. inflation of the Ego. Regardie even recommended Therapy are a part of your studies.. but he was a psychotherapist by trade.

[edit on 4/18/2005 by Cug]

As I said Crowley is often overlooked in his works, which was fine by him yet he was the one that left the keys of truth behind amongst his red herrings.

and Driley I have already posted the manuscript here, it has been overlooked in it's simplicity so i have not pushed it. You can access it using
www.rejectz.com...



[edit on 18-4-2005 by Mayet]