Can homosexuals enter the Major Mysteries of the Esoteric Path?

Originally posted by Tamahu
I'm not sure if this is currently utilized in any present day O.T.O. Lodges; but according to my understanding, it was in Aleister Crowley's day and was at times between two males.

It is absolutely disgusting and is a complete mockery of the true Arcanum-A.Z.F.(Yab-Yum), which is only between a MAN AND WOMAN of Normal Sexuality

First, it is well established that Crowley spent considerable time and effort distributing misinformation concerning his beliefs, OTO, and just about everything else.

Secondly, again, I have to wonder at the willingness of people to just be blatantly homophobic. Two men having sex isn't inherently more disgusting than a man and a woman. I mean, it's all pretty much a messy and somewhat icky business viewed from the outside. It's like ice-cream. I like strawberry and you like vanilla (heh!). So, you have yours and I'll have mine and I won't call you a disgusting vanillaist if you lay the heck off my own sex life.

Anyway, that (and this) isn't what this thread is about, really. Or at least not what I intended it to be about. I'd rather discuss various obscure or little known Masonic rites, Masonic-like organizations, and such.

Anyone know anything about these folks? FLO Note the pillars on the front page.

I am interested... but notice, again, that enlightenment is offered in correspondance course form. I just find it dubious that paying money for mail will lead to a real understanding of the truths of the universe.

I mean, have you met my letter carrier?

Well the difference between the Sexual Union of Man and Woman(IOD-HEVE/Eloh-im) and a "sexual union"(if you could even call it that) of two males, is not subjective by any means.

But that's beside the point of this thread I suppose(and BTW; to be "homophobic" I'd have to have a fear of homosexuals, which I don't at all ).

Originally posted by driley
Anyone know anything about these folks? FLO Note the pillars on the front page.

I am interested... but notice, again, that enlightenment is offered in correspondance course form. I just find it dubious that paying money for mail will lead to a real understanding of the truths of the universe.

I mean, have you met my letter carrier?

This was brought up in another thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Tamahu

Samael Aun Weor wrote

Initiation

Initiation is your own life. If you want initiation, write it upon a staff. Whosoever has understanding let him understand, because there is wisdom within.

Initiation is neither bought nor sold. Avoid those schools that give initiations by correspondence. Avoid all those who sell initiations.

Shalom




[edit on 16-4-2005 by Tamahu]
[edited quote lengths - nygdan ]

[edit on 16-4-2005 by Nygdan]

My, what interesting ideas you have.

I'm not going to bother with the homophobia not being phobia but prejudice because words mean what most people say they mean thing. It's just too tired now.

But, I will say that I find your quote on initiations somewhat dense. I guess my return question would be: "Then where is such an organization which initiates in this manner?"

Originally posted by driley
I guess my return question would be: "Then where is such an organization which initiates in this manner?"

In the Internal Planes.

Originally posted by driley

In any case, nope. Never been to anything OTO. But from what I've read, it seems significantly unlikely to be homoerotic, if that is your implication. It would appear that a significant portion of the basis of the OTO might be hetero-oriented sex magic.

But then I'm outside, looking in and guessing.

Cug?

First of all the quote Tamahu posted is from the website of the OTO's version of David Icke minus the reptilian Queen. The highest grade in the OTO is the IX* and yes it's biased on hetero-oriented sex magic among other things. the X* is for the current international and national heads of the order. You don't have to be a IX* to get the X* (I believe the current OHO was a IV* before he was voted in).

Now Crowley was bi-sexual and after he became the OHO it is really quite natural he would want to explore homosexual sex magick so he created the XI* (A mirror image of the IX* but it's not "higher"). As the OTO was being rebuilt is the 60's-70's the XI* was dropped. Quite possibly because there were no members of the XI* left and the loss of any paperwork that had to do with the XI*.

As a side, Crowley's reputation of eating babies, Wickedest man in the world, etc... has more to do with his bi-sexuality than any thing else. He thought about suing the tabloids that printed this stuff (Think weekly world news) but as they also mentioned his "un-natural acts with other men" he feared a result like what happened to Oscar Wilde.

If anyone has any questions I'd be glad to answer the best I can.. in this thread or a new one, whatever.

Originally posted by driley

Anyone know anything about these folks? FLO Note the pillars on the front page.

I got caught up talking about the O.T.O. I forgot to post on the Fraternity of the Hidden Light.

The F.L.O. (Fraternitas L.V.X. Occulta) seems to be a B.O.T.A. offshoot of a sort. Odds are it was started by a former member of B.O.T.A. who was not happy with or maybe just felt like starting their own order.

More info from the alt.magick Golden Dawn FAQ

* Fraternity of the Hidden Light / Fraternitas LVX Occultas (F.L.O.)
P.O. Box 5094, Dept. S, Covina, CA 91723, USA

[Founded in the mid-1980's by Paul A. Clark and others, this "modern
day repository of the Hermetic Arts" offers a quality correspondence
course, as well as teaching and ceremonial work in Lodges and Temples
in the USA and Canada. A "direct lineal descendant" of the Golden
Dawn via a reconstituted "Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega
in America," F.L.O. also assimilates traditions from B.O.T.A., as well
as "new revelations from continual research." Color and sound based
healing techniques are an important part of the curriculum. Fees and
suggested donations are said said to be very reasonable. Lodges in Los
Angeles, Dallas, and Toronto. Christopher Ward ([email protected]) lists
himself as a contact for anyone who wants more information.]

Originally posted by driley
I am interested... but notice, again, that enlightenment is offered in correspondance course form. I just find it dubious that paying money for mail will lead to a real understanding of the truths of the universe.

Really it all depends on the group. B.O.T.A. is well know for their excellent courses in particularly their work on the tarot. From all accounts the F.L.O. course is also quite good.

Okay, let's forget the Masonic thing for a time since it appears that having a civil discussion on that topic is difficult for us. (And let's not start a whole thing about whose fault that might be -- we'll all judge based on what we see and further derailing of this (and numerous other threads) will serve noone's cause.)

Instead, since OTO managed to work for us, let's try talking about Golden Dawn groups and their line.

Those that I know of include:

Builders of the Adytum
I was briefly an enthusiastic member. I got the correspondance course up through the second "test" and was considering applying for membership in the publicly known ritual body. But then I discovered some anti-gay prejudice in the organization and reconsidered. Evidently, they consider gay people to be inherently unfit for advanced esoteric work. Piffle.

FLO
Asked and answered. Although, I did visit one of their study groups and was impressed.

OTO
Well, I'm not sure OTO considers itself a Golden Dawn derivative. But... anyway, asked and answered.

Anyone else want to contribute?

Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by intrepid
D'oh, closed the wrong thread.

And apparently forgot the original name of this thread.

Why didn't you just let the New Thread be?

Originally posted by driley
Okay, let's forget the Masonic thing for a time since it appears that having a civil discussion on that topic is difficult for us. (And let's not start a whole thing about whose fault that might be -- we'll all judge based on what we see and further derailing of this (and numerous other threads) will serve noone's cause.)

[edit on 17-4-2005 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by driley
Evidently, they(B.O.T.A.) consider gay people to be inherently unfit for advanced esoteric work. Piffle.

Ummm; how could one as a homosexual expect to enter the Initiations of Major Mysteries, without a spouse of the opposite sex; let alone even the Initiations of Minor Mysteries? (the latter of which a single person can complete alone, if they are in chastity)


Two polarities are needed, and must first be united in the Sexual Act, before the two can blossom Internally within the individual.

Though I suppose the 'Black Lodge' may have it's "Initiations of Major Mysteries" as well, which don't recquire said circumstances.....


I may or may not argue this much; just want to see what people of various Fraternities, Orders, Lodges, etc. have to say about this.




PEACE

[edit on 17-4-2005 by Tamahu]

[edit on 17-4-2005 by intrepid]

D'oh, closed the wrong thread.

How can one enter the Major Mysteries if they do not adore their Divine Mother?

Gnostic Kabbalah: the Sixth Commandment

...Genesis 2: 24:

"Therefore (in the Initiation) shall a man (or a woman) leave their (Internal) father and their (Internal) mother from (Daath in Heaven), and shall (imitate them, therefore they shall) cleave unto their spouse (in Yesod- the sexual center): and (by making the cross when connecting the Phallus with the Uterus) they shall be one flesh," because God is the Holy Spirit, the Matchmaker, who unites male and female in the sex.



MATRIMONY = MA-TRIMONY

MA = Matter, Mother, Mary, the Divine Mother Kundalini, who abides in the Chakra Muladhara; she is the Primordial Substance HEVA, EVE, the Female Aspect of the Holy Spirit, “Shekinah” in Sex.

Trimony = trinomial, the union of THREE: MAN, WOMAN and the HOLY SPIRIT - GOD. Therefore, what God joined together let no man set asunder.

So, man and woman are married when they have sexual relations. Man and woman are married when they become one flesh.
How can these things be?

What? Know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in your (Sexual Glands), which ye have of God, and you are not your own? - 1 Corinthians 6: 19

In the Tree of Life we have the Three Supernals, the three witnesses in Heaven - Kether, Binah and Chokmah - which are related in the human body as the three brains:

Head - Father - Breath
Heart - Son - Blood
Sex - Holy Spirit - Waters of sexuality...

Originally posted by intrepid
D'oh, closed the wrong thread.

And apparently forgot the original name of this thread.


Why didn't you just let the New Thread be?

Originally posted by driley
Okay, let's forget the Masonic thing for a time since it appears that having a civil discussion on that topic is difficult for us. (And let's not start a whole thing about whose fault that might be -- we'll all judge based on what we see and further derailing of this (and numerous other threads) will serve noone's cause.)

This is great. You have a valid opinion in the year 2005, and what happens? People call you a homophobe... Hmmm...

So is that the same as how people used to get called a homo, but now we must refer to people as Homophobes?

I'm not scared of an unarmed man, but does this mean I would spend a lot of time (period of days, isolated) with ONLY men, in a spiritual getaway? Hell no!

Its my opinion there used to be a time when sex was understood for what it was, on this planet, and it is from THIS TIME PERIOD that we correctly established our views of non-polar Sexual activity.

You know its true, they filled your childhood with Knights and Magicians, and when you found out they were Gay, well, then everyone else must be a Homophobe, for not holding onto their childhood dream, and ideals.

Anyone who just doesn't think there is anything magickal about sex, I'm not gonna ram it down your throats

Originally posted by driley
Okay, let's forget the Masonic thing for a time since it appears that having a civil discussion on that topic is difficult for us. (And let's not start a whole thing about whose fault that might be -- we'll all judge based on what we see and further derailing of this (and numerous other threads) will serve noone's cause.)

Instead, since OTO managed to work for us, let's try talking about Golden Dawn groups and their line.

Looks like I missed something! Are you now looking for info for the Golden Dawn, or about homosexuality and various occult orders?

The only current Golden Dawn (And I'm referring only to groups that use the name Golden Dawn) that might have a problem is the former HOMSI now called the Esoteric order of the Golden Dawn. And I'm not really sure about that.

The Open Source order of the Golden Dawn are sure to have no problems with homosexuality as they accept the Law of Thelema.

In general there is nothing in the Golden Dawn that really discusses it in any way, but each group is a bit diffrent depending on their leaders views.

As far as the O.T.O. being an offshoot.. not really the G.D. (and the RR+AC) is a magical teaching order, the O.T.O. is a fraternal group who's only real magical teachings are of the sexual nature. The A.'.A.'. is the Thelemic magical teaching order.

And I believe Tamahu has made the point about the teaching of Samael Aun Weor's version of Gnosticism.

No way would I have started a thread with this name.

I kind of regret mentioning my experience with BOTA now. It was a comment in passing... something I knew about them rather than the substance of a discussion.

Originally posted by Tamahu

Ummm; how could one as a homosexual expect to enter the Initiations of Major Mysteries, without a spouse of the opposite sex; let alone even the Initiations of Minor Mysteries?

(the latter of which a single person can complete alone, if they are in chastity)

Two polarities are needed, and must first be united in the Sexual Act, before the two can blossom Internally within the individual.

Though I suppose the 'Black Lodge' may have it's "Initiations of Major Mysteries" as well, which don't recquire said circumstances.....

I may or may not argue this much; just want to see what people of various Fraternities, Orders, Lodges, etc. have to say about this.

It depends on your point of view, from a Thelemic point of view what you wrote would be considered coming from the Black Brothers.

AL 1: 41 The word of Sin is Restriction....

AL 1:51 ... Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! ...

driley,

How about restating your question and we'll start over again.

(FWI I'm a former member of the Golden Dawn)

Thanks, Cug.

I've started a new thread on the Golden Dawn et al.

I'm not going to visit here again on my own, so if you post something here to which you just have to have my response...

Well, that isn't going to happen, is it?

Originally posted by Cug
It depends on your point of view, from a Thelemic point of view what you wrote would be considered coming from the Black Brothers.

Then the "Thelemic" point of view must be based on dreams and not on actual Occult Science.


In The Nation of Gods and Earths, they say that Love between Man and Woman is the Highest Degree of Understanding.

This is a reference to Binah - Understanding.

The Masculine(Abba), the Feminine(Aima) and the Reconciliation - The Holy Spirit(such is how an Atom works: Proton, Electron, Neutron).

This is the Mystery of Daath.

According to my knowledge, for this to happen within us Above(in Daath), it first has to happen Below(in the Ninth Sphere - Yesod - Sex) with the Physical and Vital body; as we are here on Earth in Physical bodies.

AL 1: 41 The word of Sin is Restriction....

The word Sin is related to fornication, which means to spill the sexual fluid(due to lust).

Lust it the root cause of all our defects(The 'Fall' of Adam and Eve).


We get back to Eden, through the same door in which we left Eden - Sex.

The cultivation of Kundalini by not spilling during the sexual act.

AL 1:51 ... Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! ...

No matter what any black-magician or 'New-Ager' might say; Lust and Love are not the same thing.

The capability to express True Love(to anyone of any sex) is increased the more we grow spiritually.


We can only truly grow spiritually by eliminating our ego(s).

The Divine Mother Kundalini helps us to do this, during the sexual act between Man and Woman(again; without spilling).

This is said to be the main secret of Tantra/Alchemy and of Gnosis/Daath.


How can Love express itself from moment to moment, through the filter of the "I", "me", "myself"?

How can indulging in animal passions cultivate selflessness?


This is why the Buddha is shown in Tantric Union with his wife Yasodhara; because this is how the Solar-Bodies of the Bodhisattva are created.







PEACE




[edit on 17-4-2005 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Tamahu

Then the "Thelemic" point of view must be based on dreams and not on actual Occult Science.

I have no desire to get into a pissing match over religious viewpoints here. Not to mention it's off topic.. use the BTS board for that.

I think diffrent viewpoints covers it all.