Families the cause or solution.

Probably one for debating but here are a few thoughts.

Most criminals are hidden/protected by their families no matter the crime they have commited.

Most families try to bring up their children to be decent human beings - I hope.

A large amount of kidnap, violence and child abuse happens within the family.

Family rifts cause huge amount of upset and bitterness.

Many people are brought up to be racists, criminals, bigots.....

Families can provide a safe haven.

Families can help each other through the difficult times.

So I suppose the question is

Are families good for the individual or not?

or is it?

The answer is evident.

The question I ask of you is, if the answer is not evident to you, what would you suggest to replace the family, state-run farms?

Agreed the only alternative I can think of is State run farms which is an extremely scary thought but surely we can come up with some new ideas or are we all admitting defeat.

What about looking at the animal kingdom for examples where the family is not just the core family unit but the extended family/ community all help each other look after and bring up their offspring to be self sufficient and capable of surviving.

the institutuion of family, but with dysfunctional families....

Lack of testicular fortitude maybe?
Lack of true morals maybe?
"Blood is thicker than water."
Families are fact.....morals and upbringing are not a guarenteed fact....nor are the results.

regards
seekerof

I always find it odd that although you have to answer numerous questions and go through rigorous checks before you can adopt an animal from a rescue centre, and foster or adopt someone else's child; there are no standards governing whether some people are fit to raise their own children.

Now by no means am I advocating that families are only allowed to have children if the state/medical establishment considers they would be fit parents, but I think a few sessions with a trained professional just to iron out any issues would be beneficial to anyone considering parenthood.

For example I was watching a documentary a few nights ago, on a very dysfunctional family where the little girl was so out of control that Ritalin, special needs schooling and even offering her up for adoption had all been tried or considered by the parents. The mother had grown to detest her child utterly and every day was a battle to do the smallest task.

They had one interview (minus the daughter) with a specialist and then nightly phonecalls for about 5 months. At the end of that time period the behaviour problems had practically vanished, the mother had learnt to love her child and enjoy being a parent. One of the major things that touched me was that the mother had not experienced an affectionate loving childhood herself, had self esteem problems and really had no idea how to deal with firstly a premature baby and then all the realities of children. Maybe if she had been given an opportunity to work through some of those issues much earlier on, then the situation wouldn't have degraded to the extreme it did.

I'm not sure if things are different now but there was no such thing as parent-craft type lessons at school 10-15 years ago, and I think they would be valuable to many. Some people are lucky that they have large families and are either used to relatives bringing up children or have plenty of good advice to hand when they come to raise their own. Some people are much more isolated or had appalling childhoods and never learnt the skills needed. Thats not to say they can't be good parents with help - as that documentary showed, a woman with practically no maternal feelings managed to develop into a confident and firm mother given the right assistance. If she hadn't been given the chance to have a child, neither would she have had the chance to come to terms with her own problems.

There isn't a right way to raise kids, but there's hell of a lot of wrong ways

Absolutely agree.

The education system should teach children basic skills such as Parenting, Finance, How to a wire plug/change a fuse, Negotiation, Cooking and other more useful skills rather than a lot of what is taught.

The family is the natural place to learn these skills but obviously fails a lot of people in todays society.

Just had a thought - maybe we are living in more of a hive than small family units- most knowledge and power concentrated in the hands of small ruling elite with he rest of society running about making them richer, more powerful and comfortable. We go out to die for them when asked, with few questions to protect their personal wealth and power.

I'm not admiting failure as I don't see the family unit as a problem whatsoever. As a matter of fact, your list of reasons the family unit is a bad idea is loose and assumptive.
Example: You say kids are brought up in family units to be racists. That is true. The biases of the parent can be transmited to the child, and often times is. However, the good traits of the parent are, too. I a state farm, you can rest assured there'd be social engineering, public education x 1,000.

Arc, everytime I see some complete idiot driving down the road and allowing the passenger to hold an infant in his/her arms I say that. But the problem is, who'd draw up the exam, and what agendas would they be pushing? If you and I sat down together over a couple pens, notepads and a pot of coffee, I'm sure we could come up with a decent procreation exam the would be unbiased and good child safety as well as intellectual evolution! But the government I'd never trust. Oh, but how they'd love for us to demand they do such a thing!

I am not trying to make the point families are necessarily bad just interested in different points of view of the subject.

That is one of the problems with the education system everything has to be examined to justify the money spent on it.

I am not for one minute suggesting that we hand our children over to the state to raise, I would go into hiding, flee country or die fighting to avoid that - one of the few reasons I would use violence.

Does nobody have any positive ideas for helping the family unit enable itself to survive, I am struggling to ensure my sons keep asking questions and challenge all accepted knowledge but it doesn't half make being a parent difficult.

Originally posted by johnb
I am not trying to make the point families are necessarily bad just interested in different points of view of the subject.

That is one of the problems with the education system everything has to be examined to justify the money spent on it.

I am not for one minute suggesting that we hand our children over to the state to raise, I would go into hiding, flee country or die fighting to avoid that - one of the few reasons I would use violence.

Does nobody have any positive ideas for helping the family unit enable itself to survive, I am struggling to ensure my sons keep asking questions and challenge all accepted knowledge but it doesn't half make being a parent difficult.

Johnb....
Being that you have admitted to having a child and thus being a parent, I think your real concerns in respect to the 'family' is that you have a possible fear that you want to raise your child properly. I think that is a natural response and fear for any parent.

All we can do, as a family, as a parent, is hope that we teach our kids properly. Giving them the proper know-how as to "wrongness" and "rightness", as to morals, etc. As a parent, your influence is significant. Ultimately, the environment of society, for which a parent has no control of, will be the test bed or determining factor in that child's upbringing. All one can do is hope that one has taught their child/children properely. I think communication and spending quality time with said child or children is the ultimate function and goal for guidance. A parent can only do the best to teach but ultimately, the outside influences, exclusive of the family, will be the determining 'influence' factor. That is the nature of being a parent and the worries will surely always be there.

regards
seekerof

Quality time with your family is essential but so is earning enough money to survive.

It's finding the balance that's difficult- for me it's a case of earning the minimum required to keep the house we live in and feed and clothe ourselves, one day I'll be brave enough to suggest to my wife that we live in a caravan/log cabin in the middle of nowhere- but I guess that will be once the children are self sufficient which is a few years yet..

Originally posted by johnb
Quality time with your family is essential but so is earning enough money to survive.

It's finding the balance that's difficult- for me it's a case of earning the minimum required to keep the house we live in and feed and clothe ourselves, one day I'll be brave enough to suggest to my wife that we live in a caravan/log cabin in the middle of nowhere- but I guess that will be once the children are self sufficient which is a few years yet..

And I can agree and concur with what you have just said. It is always and will always be a concern of a parent(s) to provide the necessities, if not more. Being a parent brings great responsibility and fear. But with all that comes the greatest joys also. Follow your heart; give the best Love you can, communicate, have hope, and pray.
I would surmise that you are indeed providing and giving a good family envirinment. ALl we can do is the best that we can, nothing more, nothing less and pray that it is sufficient enough. There are no guarentees to life and hope is all we can do.

regards
seekerof

Families are by far the solution.

In Japan, crime is so low because no one there would dare dishonor their family, which they would do if caught for a crime.

Just because families can look out for eachother doesn't mean they perpetuate crime, the perpetuation of crime is caused by the current Public School systems...

Johnb....
Being that you have admitted to having a child and thus being a parent ...

1. My God!
What an outrageous confession to make!

2. One can easily point to thousands of murders, felonies, high crimes, racketeering offenses and misdemeanors perpetrated by "The Family".

It is no accident that Mafia choose this label for themselves rather than "the mob".




[Edited on 26-7-2003 by MaskedAvatar]

Originally posted by arc
I always find it odd that although you have to answer numerous questions and go through rigorous checks before you can adopt an animal from a rescue centre, and foster or adopt someone else's child; there are no standards governing whether some people are fit to raise their own children.

Now by no means am I advocating that families are only allowed to have children if the state/medical establishment considers they would be fit parents, but I think a few sessions with a trained professional just to iron out any issues would be beneficial to anyone considering parenthood.

For example I was watching a documentary a few nights ago, on a very dysfunctional family where the little girl was so out of control that Ritalin, special needs schooling and even offering her up for adoption had all been tried or considered by the parents. The mother had grown to detest her child utterly and every day was a battle to do the smallest task.

They had one interview (minus the daughter) with a specialist and then nightly phonecalls for about 5 months. At the end of that time period the behaviour problems had practically vanished, the mother had learnt to love her child and enjoy being a parent. One of the major things that touched me was that the mother had not experienced an affectionate loving childhood herself, had self esteem problems and really had no idea how to deal with firstly a premature baby and then all the realities of children. Maybe if she had been given an opportunity to work through some of those issues much earlier on, then the situation wouldn't have degraded to the extreme it did.

I'm not sure if things are different now but there was no such thing as parent-craft type lessons at school 10-15 years ago, and I think they would be valuable to many. Some people are lucky that they have large families and are either used to relatives bringing up children or have plenty of good advice to hand when they come to raise their own. Some people are much more isolated or had appalling childhoods and never learnt the skills needed. Thats not to say they can't be good parents with help - as that documentary showed, a woman with practically no maternal feelings managed to develop into a confident and firm mother given the right assistance. If she hadn't been given the chance to have a child, neither would she have had the chance to come to terms with her own problems.

There isn't a right way to raise kids, but there's hell of a lot of wrong ways

I agree arc 99%...I think there is a way to raise kids that instills the knowledge of a right way to behave and follow the mores and norms of society in general. I think one can give the proper foundational support to a child that will carry them into a fairly adjusted adulthood and the responsibilities that ensue.
We can't account for every idiosyncratic factor in families- alchohol, drugs, abuse of parents as kids and just plain wierd people. Yet, I am like you that I am loathe to hand the State anything remotely more than they already have in ways over the Family privacy.

This has been proposed by certain academia a few years ago-Parenting Classes as manditory training(state) before a couple can be married.....wow!

"You did not score well on your tests, please come back in six months!!" um, ok?

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Johnb....
Being that you have admitted to having a child and thus being a parent ...

1. My God!
What an outrageous confession to make!

2. One can easily point to thousands of murders, felonies, high crimes, racketeering offenses and misdemeanors perpetrated by "The Family".

It is no accident that Mafia choose this label for themselves rather than "the mob".




[Edited on 26-7-2003 by MaskedAvatar]

LOL
As I mentioned before...."Blood is thicker than water." Family is central to society today and will continue to be.....

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 26-7-2003 by Seekerof]