Formidable F-15/f-16 counterpart

so the gripen is detected at (best theoretical) of 175km`s , even though it is smaller than the eagle , i would happily surmise that it won`t be detected till 120km`s - the same time the gripen picks up the eagle


that and the PWR on the gripen will pick up the active AESA

Originally posted by Harlequin
so the gripen is detected at (best theoretical) of 175km`s , even though it is smaller than the eagle , i would happily surmise that it won`t be detected till 120km`s - the same time the gripen picks up the eagle


that and the PWR on the gripen will pick up the active AESA

You might be true (although I have read the new AMRAAM will have at least 90km range), but this is only the result of F-22 program. Otherwise the F-15 would be equipped with longer range misilles able to deal with such situations.
F-22 doesn't need such long range misilles, because it's stealth and has limited bay space, so long range misilles were not developed.
That's the reason why I think the remaining Eagles (for example export versions) would be better in combination with Meteor, so theu could fully use their radar cababilites.. Or they should return back to the old Sparrow.

And Gripen will also be using Meteor , unlike the eagle

Radar and RWR are both very important. Dunno about the other jets, but the Su-27's RWR is very basic. All it tells you is the general direction where somebody's tracking you from, whether or not they've achieved a lock, and whether they're above you or below you. That, coupled with a radar that has limited search capability, makes BVR combat very difficult. The Su-27's radar may be powerful but you have to slew it around a lot in order to have a chance of finding your target. In some simulation of F-15 vs. Su-27, the F-15 pilot flew very very high and locked on to the Su-27, but all the RWR told the Su-27 pilot is "the F-15 is above you and somewhere over there" but he was never able to find the F-15 even though its well within range of his radar, and the F-15 shot an AMRAAM and he didn't spoof it so he lost.

The radar not only needs to have good range but it must have very good search capability, and the RWR needs to be able to tell you more percisely where someone is spiking you from.

And then of course your missiles need to be good too, and AFAIK the basic R-77 is slightly better than the basic AIM-120 in range and performance.

(Russian RWR. Tells you direction of threat in 20 deg increments, does not tell you direction of threat if it's beyond 90 degs (it just beeps + triangle lights up), 1,2,3,4,5,6 lets you identify target 1 = fighter, 2/3/4 is short/med/long range SAM, 5 is AWACS, 6... not sure (I could've gotten the numbers wrong), B and H means above or below. A solid red background + solid tone means hostile lock on)

(F 16 RWR. Tells you direction of threat more percisely, maybe estimate range too (I could be wrong), can tell you direction of threat even when behind, can identify threat more percisely based on radar signature (each threat has its own radar spike tone, and they also show up as symbols which identify the threat). Also tells you direction of incoming ARH mssile, if any)


[edit on 17-4-2005 by Taishyou]

I can think of no possible situation where the US's F15's would be operating at anything less than the greatest possible tactical and strategic advantage.

For a start there are probably only 2 plausible opponents (IMO Russia and Europe) that might have sufficently sizeable competent defences - in depth - to make an actual fight of it but as for the rest?
Well, as we've seen even with some of the most expensive systems out there you can't 'just' conjure up a world-class airforce in a matter of a few years or even a couple of decades.

As has been mentioned, try tackling a group of F15's in you Su30's when all the support systems are down, the electromagnetic spectrum is one huge wall of impenatratable ECM and you are being supported by - at best - the remaining 10%, if that, of your airforce that wasn't wiped out or incapacitated in the opening 30 seconds of the conflict.

Kinda renders these comparisons a tad invalid, wouldn't you say?

It's as much about the tactics and environment in which the kit is operated as the actual kit itself.

In that case the Su30's etc debateably (marginally) better attributes really are besides the point and render most of this type of debate to boiling down to the USAF and their fans in the US gov and beyond attempting to put together a convincing (they hope) case for the public with little or no understanding of these things.

Bad (even though it has never actually been beaten in the air) F15 = more F22's please.

The newer F-15's with the latest APG-63(V)1 AESA radar, equipped with the Aim-120 and Aim-9X missile systems will have increased capabilities than the current F-15's.
In the India exercises the F-15's did not have the Aim-120, Aim-9X nor the AESA radar. And stealthspy the link you provided doesn't say what versions of F-15's were used in the simulators.

Here are links on the F-15's AESA radar, Aim-120 missile and he Aim-9X missile.

Aim-120
Aim-9X
APG-63(v)1 AESA

as posted by sminkeypinkey
Bad (even though it has never actually been beaten in the air) F15 = more F22's please.

True.
Cosidering the age of the F-15, even with continued upgrades, it is slowly being beat by newer foreign aircraft. Don't get me wrong here, both the F-15 and F-16 are formidable aircraft, but as aircraft evolution continues, its inherent that these formidable platforms would and will be come under foreign scrutiny and refinement. It is an inevitable situation.

This 2001 article may explain it better than I can?
Foreign Fighters Get Better





seekerof

Some day YES! I'm not sue how soon, but mark my words,It WILL HAPPEN! Technology does not stand still. Military technology especially, is an ever evolving game of measures and counter-measures! As bad as it sounds, even the F-22/F-35 will have a technological counterpart someday. It might be 35 or 40 years away, but it will happen!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

[edit on 18-4-2005 by ghost]

Ghost we know that, hence that is why there are different generation jets and each one is better than the previous one.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Another thing, they were not running against F-15E's, they running against F-15C's.

seekerof

[edit on 16-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Just a minor point the F-15E is not a superior A2A fighter to the F-15C

The F-15C is the dedicated A2A fighter

The F-15E is the Strike Eagle ground attack fighter,

Just because the lettering is higher does not signify superiority in that particular role

a moot point , as both are armed with AMRAAM , so missile ranges are very similar.

Not really despite the fact that missiles are very effective they're not 100% and there are things that pilots can do to make things more difficult for the other making them unable to launch their missiles or make their missiles miss. In other words a Cessna with the best radar and missiles in the world still won't beat a half decent fighter because of these difficult to measure factors like manuverability.

the Su-27's RWR is very basic

The Russians have been working very hard to improve their avionics in the Su-27 series and apparently have made considerable strides in that area, may still be bad but not nessearily that bad.

[edit on 18-4-2005 by Amur Tiger]

I was reading an article where the Russians had developed more advanced avionics for the Su-27, but they couldn't mass produce it because of $$$ problems.

Ahhhh..no probs.. India/China always willing to fund...

But India/China themselves have pretty hi-tech avionics..considering the IT/electronics boom they're experiencing..

Yeah but the “boom” they are experiencing the west already experienced it in the 80’s.



West Point, Out.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yeah but the “boom” they are experiencing the west already experienced it in the 80’s.

West Point, Out.

yeah were developing on the tech you made

US tech just keeps getting better as is the rest of the world's, but America always seems to be one step farther. They are moving on the unmanned aircraft and even aircraft that travel at hypersonic speeds. The whole notion of creating fighters that are packed with large payloads of missles and have really high top speeds and big radars is so 1970's.

And I find it funny how people keeping comparing the best the world has to offer (Typhoons, Gripen, Su-30s, etc) to the aircraft that the US are trying to Phase OUT, planes that are 30 years old, (F-15, F-16, etc). Not claiming US superiority in anything, but I do believe my point is valid.

Ah. but the US does NOT have anything else (until now) to compare these fighters with..

And I for one am not comparing those aircraft to the F-16 / F-15..
IHMO the Rafale,Eurofighter,Su 30 and Grippen are definitely a clas above the F-16 and at par with the NEW AESA F-15, if not better..
That is only because of the avionics/radar upgrades on the F-15..
Otherwise these aircraft IMO beat the F-15 hollow as well..
Again a balance that may/will topple when the other aircraft themselves undergo avionics/radar upgrades..
IT just depends on who does what first...
You talk about UCAVs..
I don't know their control ranges, ot whether they're preprogrammed(no human control) before launch itself..

Maybe the russians etc. are working on new jammers or concentrated EMP weapons, or on a new radar concept itself..
Maybe a one that DOESN'T work on the doppler effect..
That completely invalidates current(and future) stealth..
The best part is unless the russians use/display it, the americans won't know what to counter...
The Russians already got some info on american stealth from that F-117 Yugoslav crash..we can be sure of that...
Wonder what they're cooking up now..

Another primer to the way Russia goes now is Putin..
He's different.. More pro-soviet : match-americans-for-whatever-they-got types.. Not the Yelstin: if you can't beat em'-join em' types..

And then you have the chinese.. and the french.. and now Israel's moving away from the US.. And mind you Israel's got very good tech know how..
Put the Chinese with the Russians..The French with the Israelis..
or mix-n- match.. Dabble a little bit of India and Brazil in there..
And lo!.. you may cook yourself an antidote to american hegemony/dominance..
You never know..

Considering F-15 was designed back in the 70's... It says a lot that it takes a newer aircraft to match or sometimes beat it.

That's again because of the avionics/radar/missiles..
The Aircraft has nothing to do with those..
Those are all modern day innovations.. as new or infact newer then these modern aircraft you're talking about..

Fit a MiG 25 with those upgrades(russian upgrades even)..
Give a fictitious non-doppler radar like I was talking about..
Then It'll be a more than a match for the F-22/F-35 even, forget the F-15..

At BVR combat it comes down to the modern day trio avionics/radar/missiles..
The weapons platform is of no consequence anymore..

I state again.. "its the modern day tech onboard the F-15 thats enabling comparisions between itself and the modern fighters/tech, not the F-15 platform of 70's vintage.."

Hence statements like:

And I find it funny how people keeping comparing the best the world has to offer (Typhoons, Gripen, Su-30s, etc) to the aircraft that the US are trying to Phase OUT, planes that are 30 years old, (F-15, F-16, etc). Not claiming US superiority in anything, but I do believe my point is valid.

and

Considering F-15 was designed back in the 70's... It says a lot that it takes a newer aircraft to match or sometimes beat it.

are grossly incorrect..

In the end it boils down to 'modern day tech vs. modern day tech'

Well you cant put the f16 and f17 together two totally different fighters. One made by Lockheed and the other by McDonnel Douglas now Boeing. The F16 is still being produced today and has contracts to be built for another 5 to 10 years. There are over 26 different designs for the F16, over 21 different countries flying them and probably noone can actually name them all. The F15 is not the fighter that was built in the 70s. Of course it has new avionics and missile platforms, but the aircraft itself is different. New composite materials are used in the E and more modern engines. Different systems for flight have been added all over the aircraft to add to its performance. One thing aircraft companies do is change the airframe of the aircraft every time there is a new model. They are typically the same but with enhancements. Because of this many of you say they are older aircraft but actually there not. And still both fighters can still perform or outperform with all of todays modern aircraft.