Best Evidence?

I've finally been able to engage a very skeptical friend in a debate over the validity of there being some sort of truth behind the body of accounts of UFOs/ETs or paranormal "visitors." This is probably too "tall an order" but what do members feel is the "best evidence" (or at least argument) that UFOs are "real?" Let me clarify: by "UFOs" I'm referring to something that indicates an "alien" civilization is responsible for many of the sightings -- and by saying "alien" I mean to include ETs, "interdimensionals," even beings from some sort of hidden terrestrial civilization.

In my opinion, it isn't so much one particular item as the amount of evidence. Granted, a lot of it can be classified as hoaxes or misinterpretations, but with so many documented cases throughout history I think it's a safe bet that there's something going on. People from many different cultures, with no connection what so ever, have reported extremely similar scenarios of various activities from landings to abductions. It's possible that these people are just building off of someone else's story, but I find it unlikely that so many people would be doing that. That's just my opinion though.

well, i can't be sure of one particular piece of evidence over another, but i do know that i wish there was actually better video and/or photographic proof! for the record i do believe there is something here, it's just frustrating that everytime there's a new pic or video it always seems to be sub-par in quality, and tough to make out for sure(generally speaking, i haven't seen everything i'm sure) but i would like to see what people will bring forth as the best evidence in this thread. good post

I think it's hard really to find the one true best evidence that will convince everyone. I think the best evidence for any one person to believe in aliens or UFOs, however, is to have an encounter with one for themselves. I know I've seen quite a few greys, and that's the best evidence I have to convince myself, but few others will accept that as "evidence."

The best evidence to convince everyone? Nothing short of the government fessing up, or the aliens coming right out into the open for all to see saying, "Here we are!"

[edit on 14-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

Originally posted by CloudlessKnight
I think it's hard really to find the one true best evidence that will convince everyone. I think the best evidence for any one person to believe in aliens or UFOs, however, is to have an encounter with one for themselves. I know I've seen quite a few greys, and that's the best evidence I have to convince myself, but few others will accept that as "evidence."

The best evidence to convince everyone? Nothing short of the government fessing up, or the aliens coming right out into the open for all to see saying, "Here we are!"

[edit on 14-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

interesting! were have you seen all of these greys? and this is what i'm talking about how can this be kept secret for so long without any HARD evidence being leaked at least once? even the best we have so far is questionable or at least up for debate. where is the irrefutable evidence? i would love for all of this to be true and given the vastness of the univers IMO there has to other life right?

I think Roswell, especially after reading gazrok's posts on the subject. With the memo, the fact that the military goes out of their way to try and find a way to explain the bodies found. Also the star map in the betty and barney hill case is still impressive to me.

Originally posted by silentlonewolf
I think Roswell, especially after reading gazrok's posts on the subject. With the memo, the fact that the military goes out of their way to try and find a way to explain the bodies found. Also the star map in the betty and barney hill case is still impressive to me.

do you have any links to this "star map"?

I've encountered greys in Houston, Texas definitely. I discussed this briefly in another thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've also had dreams which I speculate might be memories of actual encounters, but these aren't things I'm positive about. Two of these dreams are on thise thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If these dreams happen to be real, then I would say that I've seen greys in Gautier, Mississippi, and Jacksonville, Florida as well.

I'm not afraid to tell anyone about these experiences and will defend to the end that they are truths.

Anyways... like I was saying. Even though this is evidence enough for me, it wouldn't be fair for me to expect that everyone must believe me just because I say so.

EDIT: Forgot to include locations. If anyone would like to hear more details of my encounters, then I can post them on a new thread.

[edit on 14-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

[edit on 14-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

The following are all cases which involved the military, confirming an unidentified object, and with characteristics that defied those of known craft. These cases were also documented in the press, as well as numerous released official documents (as well as unofficial documents), numerous witnesses (from military pilots, radar operators, sergeants to generals), etc.

If your friend isn’t convinced after these, then it’s obvious they aren’t denying ignorance…

Battle of LA
www.abovetopsecret.com...

UFOs over DC
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Case for Roswell
Part I can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part II can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section C can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section D can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for all the responses. I should have a little more clear in that I didn't mean the ONE best piece of evidence. I'd prefer to hear about several, if someone has more than one.

I agree with McCory about the amount of documentation. I was very impressed by the sheer volume of documents released by our government and others. I know none of that is conclusive but it sure seems to indicate that there's been ongoing concern even after Blue Book was publicly terminated. And, the fact that the CIA and FBI publicly claimed to have never studied the phenomena only to have FOIA released documents show they did certainly infers some sort of a cover up.

I've had people argue that this stuff may have been disinformation used as smokescreens for experimental planes and other black budget projects; but the sheer volume of documents makes this seem somewhat implausible. I mean the we all know the government is wasteful but aren't they supposed to be lazy, too?

Ever since reading Timothy Good's Above Top-secret I've really wanted to check the verity of his source material, which I seem to recall was largely FOIA releases and whatever the equivalent is in the UK. I've also wanted to know what the major skeptics or debunkers have to say about this.

I understand why anecdotal evidence is so suspect; but at the same time the volume gives pause. I can't think of anyone I personally know that would feel the need or have the capacity to make up an encounter story simply to "get attention" or "feel important."

As to photo/video evidence, I really think even clarity of image is not going to satisfy skeptics. I read a good essay about how photography, and the ability to manipulate it, has really thrown off the modern/post-modern world's perceptions and acceptance of truth. And, I think this will only get worse with the proliferation of CGI.

If one assumes that not everyone is hoaxing, the issue of lack of clarity makes me tend to lean toward the more esoteric "interdimensional" or paranormal hypotheses. If this is a behavioral conditioning experiment conducted by something beyond our fathoming (a la Vallee) I can see how tampering with such evidence would serve to further the "control factor" of the experiment.

Gazrok, I think LA and DC are strong cases; though I'm sure skeptics would dismiss them as "mass panics" (a la the War of the Worlds radio show) attributed to war-time fears (LA) and cold-war fears (DC). Despite obvious flaws in the Air Forces "final" reports, I'm starting to feel Roswell has been too "contaminated by hype" to be used in arguments with skeptics. Despite how interesting the "Ramey Memo" reconstruction is I can easily see skeptics claiming either photo-manipulation or subjective interpretations. hmm, maybe I should test that on my friend?

Cessna, here's a link (with a fairly in-depth text) on Betty Hill's star map: www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk... Again, I can see skeptics claiming coincidence and subjective interpreting.

CloudlessKnight, I by know means intend to discount your experiences. Are you familiar with the argument that sleep paralysis may be the cause for the so-called "bedside encounters?" I'm just curious as to what makes you feel these weren't products a dream-state. Frankly, I find it odd that so many people experiencing sleep paralysis would "see" the same sort of thing. I think I read somewhere that sensory deprivation experiments produced similar experiences. Is there something in our unconscious mind that "makes" us see greys? Even that implies something odd and disturbing.

Thanks again, can't wait to read more...

Originally posted by Dib

CloudlessKnight, I by know means intend to discount your experiences. Are you familiar with the argument that sleep paralysis may be the cause for the so-called "bedside encounters?" I'm just curious as to what makes you feel these weren't products a dream-state. Frankly, I find it odd that so many people experiencing sleep paralysis would "see" the same sort of thing. I think I read somewhere that sensory deprivation experiments produced similar experiences. Is there something in our unconscious mind that "makes" us see greys? Even that implies something odd and disturbing.

Don't worry, I take no offense from people asking me questions. It's a person's nature to do so.

As you can probably imagine, when experiencing a thing like that, I was very frightened and confused about what was going on. I wanted to hear every explaination possible that could explain little grey men running around in the dark. To answer your question: yes, I am very familiar with theories that suggest sleep paralysis is responsible for people seeing aliens.

What makes me believe these experiences were not the result of a dream state is because I had similar experiences within the same time frame where I was never even asleep to begin with. Experiences that my brother and father were also witness to.

On the other side, I have no reason to believe that my dreams about aliens were anything but dreams. I'm very confident that I can tell the difference between being asleep and awake.

I do think there is something in the human subconscious that makes us dream of things like aliens. But I don't believe that thing is any more trecherous than what makes us dream about our things and people like our family and friends (In other words, dreaming about aliens is not an indicator of mental illness).

As for being wide awake and seeing these guys, I'm fairly certain that I was not hallucinating, haha. Then again, I'm not a doctor?

EDIT: Grammar.

[edit on 14-4-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

Originally posted by CloudlessKnight
then I would say that I've seen greys in Gautier, Mississippi

I've seen a lot of strange sights in Gautier, but they all turned out to be the locals!

I was stationed in Pascagoula for about a year.

thanks dib for the link pretty cool stuff.

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTime

I've seen a lot of strange sights in Gautier, but they all turned out to be the locals!

I was stationed in Pascagoula for about a year.

Hahaha. I hear you on that one.
I was a military dependant at the time; my stepdad worked on the U.S.S. Steven W. Groves as a radar tech. That's my story and I'm sticken to it.

I know youre asking for more than one, but one that immediately comes to mind is Bentwaters-Woodbridge. I was always absolutely fascinated with that one.

As far as craft go, I dont personally believe you can definitely say any unknown UFO is without question of alien origin. Maybe, MAYBE possibly the Trent photos. But I couldnt stake anything on that, after all no one got out and said "hi". I wouldnt say tho that it could have belonged to anyone's air force in 1950...but what do I knwo about what they had in 1950...but you wouldnt think anyway. There are questions no one has answered on those yet. Dr. Macabbee (while I dont agree with him on some things these days) did an fantastic paper on them using original negatives. Theyre worth looking at, and so is Bruce's paper on them.

Originally posted by CloudlessKnight
What makes me believe these experiences were not the result of a dream state is because I had similar experiences within the same time frame where I was never even asleep to begin with. Experiences that my brother and father were also witness to.

Cool! I tend to prefer multiple witness encounters -- and least when dealing with skeptics. What were the "similar" experiences, if you don't mind telling them?

Originally posted by CloudlessKnight
I do think there is something in the human subconscious that makes us dream of things like aliens. But I don't believe that thing is any more trecherous than what makes us dream about our things and people like our family and friends (In other words, dreaming about aliens is not an indicator of mental illness).

No. I wasn't trying to suggest mental illness as a cause. And, I probably came off more ominous thatn intended. I just think the commonality of numerous sleep paralysis and sensory deprivation accounts almost suggests something along the lines of "genetic memory." I'm certain how much I beleive in that -- but there sure a lot of animals that seem to come "preloaded" with some fairly amazing "software." Every time I look at a wasp nest I think aout that.

Originally posted by CloudlessKnight
As for being wide awake and seeing these guys, I'm fairly certain that I was not hallucinating, haha. Then again, I'm not a doctor?

Actually, come to think of it, most of the people I know who've had visual hallucinations (drug-induced and otherwise) have never reported seeing anything as complicated as little grey men running about.

Originally posted by jritzmann
I know youre asking for more than one, but one that immediately comes to mind is Bentwaters-Woodbridge. I was always absolutely fascinated with that one.

What, in particular, about Bentwaters-Woodbridge do you find compelling? I really wish someone, other than Larry Warren, would write an up-to-date book on that case.

As far as craft go, I dont personally believe you can definitely say any unknown UFO is without question of alien origin. Maybe, MAYBE possibly the Trent photos... There are questions no one has answered on those yet. Dr. Macabbee (while I dont agree with him on some things these days) did an fantastic paper on them using original negatives. Theyre worth looking at, and so is Bruce's paper on them.

I'm not sure if I've read about the Trent photos before? I'll look 'em up. Is Macabee's paper available online? Thanks...

Originally posted by Dib

Originally posted by jritzmann
I know youre asking for more than one, but one that immediately comes to mind is Bentwaters-Woodbridge. I was always absolutely fascinated with that one.

What, in particular, about Bentwaters-Woodbridge do you find compelling? I really wish someone, other than Larry Warren, would write an up-to-date book on that case.

As far as craft go, I dont personally believe you can definitely say any unknown UFO is without question of alien origin. Maybe, MAYBE possibly the Trent photos... There are questions no one has answered on those yet. Dr. Macabbee (while I dont agree with him on some things these days) did an fantastic paper on them using original negatives. Theyre worth looking at, and so is Bruce's paper on them.

I'm not sure if I've read about the Trent photos before? I'll look 'em up. Is Macabee's paper available online? Thanks...

Yeah Bruce's is online. It's a good read. If you've not read about them, you have defintiely seen them. Theyre among the most famous UFO shots ever. Despite being used in literally tons of books and videos, the people who shot and witnessed it never saw money...it essentially became public domain, when it should have.

What about Bentwaters-Woodbridge? Everything. But, like everything it's got it's B.S artists trying to cash in. I find Col. Halt's tapes very compelling. I also find the official dismissal of the events very telling. There's all sorts of assorted, alledged senarios of aliens meeting with base commanders, which is in my opinion hogwash. The solid original official reports are good stuff. Thats enougn for me to be interested. Halt's tape recordings from that night were on Jeff Rense's site for a long while...maybe still are.

I dont agree with a psychotronic weapons test on our servicemen that night, there were physical effects on the ground and measured interaction with the environment by unknown objects. All, accounted by solid servicemen and multiple witnesses.

[edit on 14-4-2005 by jritzmann]

Gazrok, I think LA and DC are strong cases; though I'm sure skeptics would dismiss them as "mass panics" (a la the War of the Worlds radio show) attributed to war-time fears (LA) and cold-war fears (DC). Despite obvious flaws in the Air Forces "final" reports, I'm starting to feel Roswell has been too "contaminated by hype" to be used in arguments with skeptics. Despite how interesting the "Ramey Memo" reconstruction is I can easily see skeptics claiming either photo-manipulation or subjective interpretations. hmm, maybe I should test that on my friend?

True, but the skeptics case for "mass panic" is of course rendered rather ineffective when one considers that for both LA and DC, it wasn't a sighting that triggered the military response, but RADAR RETURNS AND CONFIRMATIONS. No matter how much science the skeptics throw at it, such "mass panic" or hallucinations CANNOT manifest radar returns!
By the way, it wasn't a hallucination in that photo of the LA Times, nor was it a hallucination that they fired over 1400 rounds at for over an HOUR while it was over the city...

As for Roswell, anyone can do the photo analysis themselves from the original photos and see the same Ramey memo reconstruction. I believe David Rudiak has even spelled out EXACTLY the process, equipment, and software used to do this. Also, though false witnesses have contaminated it somewhat, we STILL have the testimony of not just your average Joe on the street, but extremely high-ranking military officers, as well as the government's own documents, whitch simply can't be tainted by even the most unbelievable witnesses.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by Gazrok]

I have to agree that The Battle of LA, DC in 52, and the memo reconstruction for Roswell are the most simple and direct example of 'something else'.

I have a fondness for LA because the picture is so stunning that I did not give it a second glance, for well, many years. Front page, more witnesses than you can count. We now have the official end result of what happened that night, and it plain cannot be as written. But what the official doc does tell us is that it was not just a big mistake. Reading the original articles you understand what it means to be confronted with something for which an entire people have no frame of reference to understand. The result, the totality of the witness reports shows humans doing what they always do in such situations, finding a way to make it fit something they know.

The start point to this whole UFO subject is Space, how big it really is, how many Stars, how many Planets. Life on earth being the only intelligence is not logical, what that very thought expresses is human ego, fear of the unknown, and a few other defense mechanisms.

Then Time, how long has it all been in existance, millions of years, billions, or just this side of Forever. Here we are in 2005, somewhere else it is 2,000,005 and somewhere else it is 1, or -1,000,000.

Put the two together and you have the basic understanding of Life in this Universe, at least the beginning of what we as humans can comprehend of it.


A.T
(-)


[edit on 17-4-2005 by Alexander Tau]