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OP/ED: China: A New Cold War ?

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posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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It is an intriguing question, is the U.S about to enter a cold war scenario with China and could it turn hot ?

Perhaps history will show with hindsight that we've already entered a confrontational period in the same way we look back at European history and see what those living in the late 1930's couldn't see or what they chose to ignore.

Many might blame the EU because of their recent confrontational attitude toward the U.S including the proposal that arms sales to China might be a possibility but, as in every relationship, blame can be squarely laid at both doors. Bush and his administration have created an adversarial enviroment. Put aside the obvious disagreements over the inception of the war against Iraq and we still have the very real possibility of a trade war which could arise because of the subsidies paid to both the European Airbus and the U.S Boeing aircraft manufactuers.

Both Europe and the U.S need to take a step back and compromise, there are far more vital issues on the international horizon and a polarisation of the two great democratic centres of the world can only complicate a very dangerous situation.

China recently announced that under certain circumstances it could attack and invade Taiwan and reclaim what it calls a renegade province. This despite the backing and recent historical ties between Taiwan and the U.S.A and the military assurances that are well known.

Why ?

China has also raised the tension between itself and Japan, another strong ally of the U.S.A in the region ostensibly because of the new text books published in Japan which gloss over some of the worst war crimes committed by Japan during the second world war but which has overflowed now into a territorial disagreement concerning oil exploration in a disputed area of the South China Sea and for which China given clear warning to Japan that continued tansgression might well result in "repercussions"(a euphamism lost on no-one).

Why ?

At exactly the same time China has resolved it's territorial disputes with India and has recently agreed a new trade agreement with India.

Why ?

Anyone who has ever played chess would recognised the repositioning of the pieces. Consolidating and safeguarding the western border of China while attacking the eastern border.

Things aren't helped by the atrocious trade deficit which the U.S now has with China and the fact that China now holds enough U.S treasurey bonds to send the U.S.A into recession or even depression at will. Nor is it helped by the United State's reluctance to tackle any country head on that may have nuclear weapons.

China is flexing it's muscles and trying to re-order the geo-political map.

This is not the time for the EU to spite the U.S because of recent disagreements but nor is this the right time for the U.S.A to be bellicose in it's relationship with the EU. Compromise must be found between the EU and the U.S.A and a united front must be presented.

Europe must withdraw the proposal to sell sophisticated arms to China or, I feel it will find itself on the wrong side of history's judgement.

But the U.S.A must seek to close the gap instead of taking an arrogant and confrontational position against the EU. The U.S.A may well be the most powerful nation on Earth but even the most powerful nation needs good friends and allies and our common principles far outway our differences.

Has a cold war already started ?

I fear so.

Can we prevent it becoming hot ?

Only if we put aside our differences and present a united front.

[edit on 14-4-2005 by John bull 1]




posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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Well, that definitely sums up what's been on a lot of our minds lately, but where do we go from here? China hasn't been willing to risk the effects of an invasion of Taiwan, so why now? What has changed that is driving the Chinese political mind to say, "Now is the time?"

We see several growing causes for concern. We see the chess game, but what about the jigsaw puzzle? Will China really make a move for Taiwan?

Zip



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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Everybody's guilty when it come to trading with China. We've sold the technology that can have military value and IBM is closing a huge deal with China as we speak that will give China a twenty five year information tech jump. Isreal has been agressively selling China military armsand nothing said about that. I just can't imagine, with a straight face, asking Europe not to do military business with china.

Our protectionist attitude towards Taiwan will be put to the test before long, as will our alliance with Japan.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Zipdot

A very good responding metaphor. The Jigsaw puzzle; which pieces are missing ?

I was struck by a theme used by Tom Clancy in one of his novels that the Chinese were like Star Trek's Clingons. That is not to insult the Chinese but to emphasise that despite the fact we belong to the same species because of our cultural differences, we can not understand each other. And that is top say we are ill equipped to judge each others boundaries.

From a purely calculated point of view I would say that we're back to the old formula of Mutually Assured Destruction (A buzz phrase during the late 1970's and early 1980's for those too young to remember).

The equation is resolved by the simple human instinct to survive but if China feels that M.A.D plays in it's favour then it cdan continually raise the stakes assured that the other side's humanity will make it back off.

What we found during the cold war was that Russians humane too.

But are the Chinese ?



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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I've been thinking that China may want to use Taiwan as a pawn in the North Korea situation. In exchange for their cutting all support to North Korea and allowing Kim to fall, I think they want control of Taiwan back. Just my 2 cents...

[edit on 4/14/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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China is very obviously gearing up some sort of aggresive action toward someone. Probably Taiwan. Their recent arms purchases and Training exercises with Russia. Might explain the sale of fighters to India and Pakistan.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 05:42 PM
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Historically China has placed little to no value on individual human life. Whereas Russians are very family centered and generally generous people. But whilst im loathed to generalise in such broad terms it does help to understand any differences between a Cold War between China and the one between Russia.

M.A.D would stand up against China for different reasons to what it would for Russia. China has built its economy and growth on massive cheap labour. At the very least, the wiping out of their population would result in the loss of their single biggest asset. Cold hearted, maybe, but it still would prevent an escalation on China's side which would go above conventional weapons.

With relation to the United States and M.A.D, the pursuing of a missle shield will tip the balance in favour of the U.S and I fear it will give Americans a false sense of superiority and power. If M.A.D doesnt apply to you then what? Do you treat your adversaries with a healthy respect? Or do you ramp up pressure on them and blackmail them into doing exactly as you say?

I fear that any Cold War between the Chinese and the United States would become hot the very day a working missile shield comes online. It would result in a direct confrontation between the Chinese Army and the United States army. The Chinese might use nuclear weapons in a tactical manner with no qualms about hurting their own front line troops if it takes out American forces.

The Americans, I fear, would contemplate using nuclear weapons in a strategic manner. Free in the knowledge that their missile shield will keep their homeland safe.

But to actually give China more credit, I can see them attacking the United States before they attain a missile shield. Thus hitting America before its in any position to dismiss M.A.D and taking advantage of current American military engagement elsewhere...which would be about now



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 05:57 PM
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geee... why are we so much in a hurry to blow ourselves up...

greed



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 04:23 AM
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Originally posted by ulshadow
geee... why are we so much in a hurry to blow ourselves up...

greed


Cause we are all from different cultures..



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 04:36 AM
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Chinese claims to Taiwan look stretched at best. China colonized Taiwan and not until 1885 did it lay any formalized claim to the island. Even then, the claim was tenuous.

China views the world differently than the West does. China is an older civilization and feels justified in all its actions. Whether Taiwan is used as a bargaining chip for some kind of concession from the West because of troubles in N. Korea or perhaps a diversion for other ends we will not know until China makes an unambiguous move or demand.

Japan controlled Taiwan much longer than China did.(1) Japan controlled Korea (2) and also conquered large parts of China during the 1930's.(3) Japan was a ruthless and cruel conqueror of many places, China included. The Chinese are very resentful toward the Japanese and harbor scars and hatred from the WW II era.(4)

China and Japan have economically joined hands, yet politically are at extreme odds with each other. They have many 'bones of contention' running the gambit of history, class books,(5) claims to oil potential islands(6) and arms sales.(7)


Christian Science Monitor

To ascribe some type of 'we all need to get along' message to the current state of affairs in the Chinese area of the world is to be blind to China's history. China tried to invade Japan (8) only to be beaten back. Neither party (China nor Japan) has forgotten this.

Nuclear destruction is the only fear the Japanese have. America didn't invade Japan in WW II, again because of 'divine intervention.'

China on the other hand has been invaded and roughly treated. China will not allow this to happen again. The Chinese will not start a war, nuclear or otherwise, with any power that could invade their homeland.

Conclusion
I look for economic pressures from China for advanced weapons and raw materials concessions. China is pursuing economics with a vengeance.(9) China (historically) is an economic giant. What is going on now with Taiwan is nothing more than another move in a world-wide campaign.


1 History of Taiwan

Not until World War II, when military necessities forced the Japanese to develop aluminum, chemical, oil-refining, metal, shipbuilding, and other strategic industries, did Taiwan's industrial sector reach a high level of output. Many large-scale state-run factories still operating today in Taiwan were constructed by the Japanese.


2 Answers . com

The Treaty of Shimonoseki (1895) declared Korea independent and provided for the cession of Taiwan, the Pescadores, and the Liaodong peninsula by China to Japan. China also had to pay a large indemnity. Within a week of the treaty signing, however, the diplomatic intervention of Russia, France, and Germany forced Japan to return the Liaodong peninsula to China. Under a subsidiary commercial treaty (1896), China yielded to Japanese nationals the right to open factories and engage in manufacturing in the trade ports. This right was automatically extended to the Western maritime powers under the most-favored-nation clause.


3History Orb . com

Manchuria rich in natural resources and sparsely populated had obvious advantages for a densely populated and resource-poor Japan. Amongst Manchuria's resources coveted by Japan were iron, coking coal, soybeans, salt and above all land, all severely lacking within the Japanese empire in 1930. This contrasted favourably with Japan's mountainous terrain of which only twenty percent was arable. Despite these restrictions Japan's population increased rapidly in the early twentieth century reaching seventy million in 1937. This steady increase ensured the empire was no longer self-sufficient in food, a problem expansion into Manchuria and China proper could solve. Population growth also left Japan with a surplus agricultural population and many willing emigrants. By the 1930s however these emigrants were not welcome in significant numbers anywhere in the world as both the United States and the British dominions actively discriminated against them. This exclusion increased Japan's feelings of isolation and made expansion into Manchuria even more attractive. Manchuria could provide not only natural resources and rice yield enhancing soybean fertiliser it could also provide Japan with its Lebensraum to settle its surplus population.


4cnd . org
link to Amazon . Com

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
In a shocking brief that's as much an intellectual artifact as a work of scholarship, Japanese historian Tanaka challenges the idea of Japan as a victim in WWII. The core of his thesis is that in the aftermath of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905, an "Emperor ideology" based on the "family state" came to dominate Japan. Responsibility was seen as unlimited, while rights existed only in a collective context; this set the stage for various tragedies and atrocities. Tanaka offers several case histories to prove his point. They cover the massacre of more than 2500 Australian prisoners in a Borneo camp, widespread cannibalism by Japanese troops in New Guinea, the shooting of 21 Australian nurses in cold blood and the sexual enslavement of Asian women for the pleasure of Japanese fighting men. Also surveyed are the premeditated murder of 32 civilians, including German missionaries, in 1943; Japanese plans for bacteriological warfare; and the use of prisoners as medical guinea pigs. Tanaka insists that the perpetrators of these brutalities were "ordinary" men enmeshed in a criminal system; he also asserts that people of all nationalities commit atrocities in war. He depicts this era as a definable, relatively brief period during which Japan lost its way and ran amok. This seems no more intellectually acceptable than describing the Third Reich as a historical accident. In fact, Tanaka's study resembles German efforts during the 1950s to come to terms with the immediate past. As such, it is a beginning?no less and no more. Maps and photographs not seen by PW.


5Wellesley Edu

The Japanese Army encountered fierce resistance everywhere. It is said to have killed 200,000 people after occupying Nanking (Nanjing), and it was censured by various foreign governments.1 But the Japanese people were not informed of these facts.
Footnote 1. This is known as the Great Nanking Massacre Incident, and the Chinese authorities assert that more than 300,000 people were slaughtered. In addition, from around 1940 on, a three-pronged campaign to burn, kill, and plunder was set in motion against anti-Japanese strongholds in northern China, and it had a devastating impact on the lives and the livelihoods of the Chinese masses.
-to-
On July 7, 1937 (ShÙwa 12), shortly after the installation of Konoe Fumimaro's first cabinet, Japanese and Chinese forces clashed at the Marco Polo Bridge on the outskirts of Peking (Beijing)--the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. A local cease-fire agreement was reached, but because of factors including pressure from military hard-liners, the Konoe cabinet revised its policy line of no expansion and determined on an increase of troops. Military action escalated; the battle spread from the north to the south and, over time, throughout China.1 In order to offer the maximum resistance, the Nationalist government engaged in its second joint operation with the Communist Party in late September, and an anti-Japanese national front was established. The Sino-Japanese War escalated in this way without any declaration of war. Japan sent in one big army after another. But while it managed at the end of the year to occupy the capital Nanking (Nanjing),2 the Nationalist Army continued to put up resistance even as it retreated to Wuhan and then to Chungking (Chongqing) in the interior. As a result, peace efforts had no effect, and a long war seemed in the offing.
Footnote 1. Initially known as the "North China Incident," it was later renamed the "China Incident." While neither side had declared war, it developed into what was in fact an all-out war.
Footnote 2. On this occasion the Japanese forces killed many Chinese, including noncombatants, and after Japan's defeat this (the Nanking Incident) became a major issue at the Tokyo Trial.


6Christian Science Monitor

Japan is the world's second-largest economy, has a huge savings rate, and a large educated middle class. Yet China, with 1.3 billion people, cheap labor, and a policy of market competition, has become the world's seventh-largest economy. In the past year, China has passed Japan, becoming the US's third-largest trading partner.


7 China Economic Net

On the eve of a visit by French President Jacques Chirac, Japanese Government Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda said: "Considering stability in Asia, the United States and Japan share the awareness that resuming arms exports would be a big problem."


8sallyann

In the year 1281 A.D., two magnificent Chinese fleets set sail for the Empire of Japan. Their purpose was to launch a massive invasion on the Japanese home islands and to conquer Japan in the name of the Great Mongol Emperor Kublai Kahn. Sailing from China was the main armada, consisting of 3,500 ships and over 100,000 heavily armed troops. Sailing from ports in Korea was a second impressive fleet of 900 ships, containing 41,000 Mongol warriors.
-and-
The Mongol invasion force was a modern army, and its arsenal of weapons was far superior to that of the Japanese. Its soldiers were equipped with poisoned arrows, maces, iron swords, metal javelins and even gunpowder. The Japanese were forced to defend themselves with bow and arrows, swords, spears made from bamboo and shields made only of wood.
-and-
Miraculously, as if in answer to their prayers, from out of the south a savage typhoon sprang up and headed toward Kyushu. Its powerful winds screamed up the coast where they struck the Mongol's invasion fleet with full fury, wreaking havoc on the ships and on the men onboard. The Mongol fleet was devastated. After the typhoon had passed, over 4,000 invasion craft had been lost and the Mongol casualties exceeded 100,000 men.

9ATS thread

The Vagabond posted

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
That chinese oil deal better get done pretty quick or the U.S. Marines will be in Caracas.

The oligarchy was run out of Venezueala and America will try to put them back.


Dang skippy! Somehow a lot of people miss the fact that China and America are basically in a new cold war, and this time it's America who is running around the world starting fires for the other side to put out (although we did a bit of that last time as well I suppose).

another ATS thread

JoeDoaks posted
The classic example in history is the Mongol invasions of Europe. The Europeans outnumbered the Mongols, had better weapons and armor- demographically were superior. Enter chaos- the always indefinable, that which can not reliably be quantified- fear.

By rumor the Mongols had the Europeans beat. The rumor became reality.

Rumor and speculation. These will act as cover for much of what China is really doing.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by JoeDoaks]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 06:41 AM
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JoeDoaks, it is obvious what you know about the history of taiwan is incorrect.

"China views the world differently than the West does. China is an older civilization and feels justified in all its actions. Whether Taiwan is used as a bargaining chip for some kind of concession from the West because of troubles in N. Korea or perhaps a diversion for other ends we will not know until China makes an unambiguous move or demand.

Japan controlled Taiwan much longer than China did.(1) Japan controlled Korea (2) and also conquered large parts of China during the 1930's.(3) Japan was a ruthless and cruel conqueror of many places, China included. The Chinese are very resentful toward the Japanese and harbor scars and hatred from the WW II era.(4)

China and Japan have economically joined hands, yet politically are at extreme odds with each other. They have many 'bones of contention' running the gambit of history, class books,(5) claims to oil potential islands(6) and arms sales.(7) "

Japan controlled Taiwan much longer than China? What a Joke! China held control over the island of Taiwan for centuries. Just google for history of Taiwan and look for yourself. Native Taiwanese Hans(not mainland chinese brought in after the KMT's defeat in civil war) speak the same dialect as their kinsmen across the strait in Fuijian, NOT japanese! When the Dutch invaded Taiwan in 1700s, A Ming General led his forces to regain the strategic Island.

Japan contolled Korea? Which history book you have been refering to huh? BTW, Korea is actually the people of "Yan" Kingdom in China who fled to the peninsula after they were invaded by "Qin" Kingdom. China do not owned Korea but had good relationship with the Koreans until the Japanese Invasion.

As for the history textbook matter, i do not know how much u guys know about it. But as far as i know, they denied blame for lauching the war and all the hideous crimes they did. They gave reasons that are totally lies like liberating European colonies. They are fully responsible for the Nanking Rape. If the Japanese comes to your country one day, round up all boys and men then kill them, rape all girls and women, putting a bayonet mercilessly into babies, looting all the valuables, how do you feel? Who is responsible? That's why u see Chinese(and Koreans) going on riots everyday in cities recently. Lessons are meant to be learnt, but apparently Japan has learning difficulties.

I treat Japan more as a military threat to China than China to Japan. Com'on, Japan is so advanced in technology and has so much money to spend on what they like. What makes you think they do not have an arsenal of WMD? They even had plans to deliver chemical and biological weapons on American soils just before they surrendered(check up I-404). The A-bombs, delivered just in time, saved so many lifes.

I am not a mainland Chinese nor a Communist supporter. In fact, I am no supporter of the Chinese Communist Government. I am speaking what every people who suffered under Japanese hands are feeling.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 07:25 AM
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Back to topic

Indeed, a cold war between USA and China is inevitable. Look at the East Asia crisis(Taiwan and North Korea) now, we can compare it to the Cuban Missile Crisis to a certain extent. Taiwan allows USA to project its forces in East Asia if needed, and also restrict China access to the Pacific(Like how US missiles in Turkey were threatening USSR). Meanwhile, North Korea, if equipped with ICBM tech combined with their supposed nuclear ability, is a major threat not only to US allies in East Asia but also US mainland(The Korean leader is so unpredictable, he may shoot a missile anywhere,anytime as he liked). The American public will feel the same fear as during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Though China is commited on economic development these days, their ultimate goal is to build up their status in the World(Through economic and most importantly, military). Just look at their military spending in 2004 : news.bbc.co.uk...

What can we do. Nothing at the moment except:

1)Slow down and gradually stop China economic growth by not investing there and boycotting their products(your country also benefits by having lower unemployment rate thus economy development and of course better quality consumer goods),

2)Topple its Communist government by triggering nationwide revolts, then build good friendship with China's new democratic government by offering economic help(Which is quite impossible as most mainland Chinese are quite happy with the kind of life they are enjoying now after years of poverty that they were used to before capitalism sets in) or

3)Build a good relationship with current Communist government by showing them all the respect like supporting their space program and giving in to them on everything (US did it by reconising the Communist side as the Official China in the 70s - a bad decision anyway). It will earn you some peace for the moment but in the end it's not going to be good for you. Anyone who knows about WWll should knows that the policy of appeasement adopted by The Allies was meant to be a failure from the start. Chinese Communist Party is just as "TRUSTWORTHY" as Nazi, ain't it?

:- It's not that i don't like china, but i just hate the idea of communism

[edit on 15-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 08:23 AM
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JoeDoaks
Chinese claims to Taiwan look stretched at best. China colonized Taiwan and not until 1885 did it lay any formalized claim to the island. Even then, the claim was tenuous.


Joe, i don't blame you for saying this because the western media has never reported the history of Taiwan properly. I guess this is useful to convince the world that China is evil and oppresses other people.

True, Taiwan was an outskirt province that China never paid much attention to until it was taken by the dutch in the Ming Dynasty. Latter, the remnant of the Ming forces retook Taiwan as a base of operations against the Manchu Qing. This was in the 1600's.

The Qing retook Taiwan again from the Ming within a hundred year or so. The Qing ruled Taiwan until 1895 when China lost a humiliating defeat to Japan, ceding the Taiwan to Japan.

After the war, the U.S helped the KMT or the Nationalists to set up in Taiwan, effectivetly giving to colony to the Republic of China, the heir to the Qing Dynasty. A state of civil war still exists between the PRC and the ROC.

A majority of Taiwanese are descedants from the Mainland province of Fujian who emigrated there in the last 600-700 years. About 20-30% are the 49'ner Taiwanese that ran from the Mainland after defeat by the Communists.

-----

Alot is always made about China's military spending but the fact is it has increased the same amounts as health and education, again the western media never reports this.

In fact, if you look at the link NotheRaGe gave you, you will see that Agricultural expenditure rose 20% as opposed to the military budget rise of 12-14%.

-----

As for not investing in China, that idea is simply unworkable. Corporations don't invest in China out of charity you know. For example, Chinese tax rate for foreign company is 15% compared to 33% for domestic companies. I think Sony invested 1 billion dollars in China, but it recieved so far in revenue from China 9 billion.

Thats 8 billion in the black from China.

Not to mention it is a mistake, It will only push China to the edge.

China's ultimate goal has always being clear, peaceful development for the forseable future, The only place China has a thing on is Taiwan, even that has a low % to become an actual war.

Personally, i see this whole thing about containing China as total paranoia.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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China, the fastest growing market of oil consumption in the world, sees America, the number one consumer of oil in the world, moving into the second and third largest oil fields in the world, Iraq and Iran.

They are making moves to battle for oil. The world has reached peak oil production, gasoline in America will cost 9 dollars per gallon in 2007, and we are all screwed.

Pack up.

Zip



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by Zipdot
China, the fastest growing market of oil consumption in the world, sees America, the number one consumer of oil in the world, moving into the second and third largest oil fields in the world, Iraq and Iran.

They are making moves to battle for oil. The world has reached peak oil production, gasoline in America will cost 9 dollars per gallon in 2007, and we are all screwed.

Pack up.

Zip


oil
money
drugs
sex
volience
greed
thats all i have to said, maybe take out that
sex part



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 08:03 PM
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Referring to the original topic, this is the same question that filled the headlines on slow news days in the long period after the USSR fell and before 9/11, and also the first signs that the EU was an economic force to be reckoned with, at the turn of the century. Pundits will always talk about a possible cold war with China, and with good reason, since China is a very powerful nation that has shown expansionist tendancies and has the potential to outproduce and outperform america and/or the EU in the mid to long term, should they prove able to deal with various other issues first.

Personally, I feel "Cold War" is a poor term to use to describe current Sino-US relations, because it is a term designed to invoke memory of our previous cold war with the USSR, which was a very different situation. China is not the closed society that the USSR was (although it's not an open one either). We have very important, indeed crucial, trade links with China which we never had with the USSR. We are mutually codependent. Not only does this manifest itself on the business pages, but the political ones as well. While we fought to roll back the USSR's and expand our own sphere of influence, China's own sphere is of a decidedly different character. Countries which would have been closed to us had they fallen (as some did) within the USSR's umbrella, are in fact very open to US influences despite the fact that they either court, or are de facto client states of, China as well. Vietnam would examplify the latter, and Singapore and the former. Neither are states, like, say, Egypt, which are subject to coups and internal strife which ebbs and flows depending on whether they threw in their lot with the US or the USSR. They are free, and happy, to do both, and profit from it.

Now that we've becomed accustomed to the post-9/11 "weltenschaung," we'll probably be hearing a lot more (again) about cold wars with China. I say, resist the inclination to use cookie cutter molds to define a new and uncharted situation.

-koji K.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by koji_K]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by NotheRaGe
JoeDoaks, it is obvious what you know about the history of taiwan is incorrect.

Perhaps-

I can tell you didn't read my links.

What I posted I took from others as I am not 3,000 years old.

China (nation of) controlled (not claimed) Taiwan for how long?
About 1622 the Dutch took over from the Portuguese, in 1624 the Chinese, by 1630 the Dutch were in control again along with the Spaniards, - - -

The Chinese immigrated to Taiwan. They came as merchants, farmers and labor for the European plantations and mines. Most of the Chinese were at the bottom of any existing social strata just as most immigrants world wide were in those days.

By the 1650s the Dutch were driven out- by Taiwanese (not China).

China was conquered by the Manchus- many Chinese fled to Taiwan.

Around 1683 China (under the Manchus) conquered Taiwan annexing it as a province.


Despite the decisive Manchu victory in Taiwan, the resistance of the Chinese people against the "foreign" rulers continued underground. Secret societies were organized both on the island and in the mainland. The Hong Men Society established by Chen Yung-hua was most famous and active, attracting hundreds of thousands of Ming loyalists under its flag. It instigated innumerable uprisings, first in Taiwan and then in the southeast coast of the mainland, during the following 200 years of the Qing dynasty rule in China. No wonder Manchu officials claimed that Taiwan was an unstable place, subject to "a putsch every three years, and a general uprising every five years".


In 1885 China finally made Taiwan a province- after years of internal discord and foreign attacks.

Taiwan was ceded (get this?) to Japan in 1895. This is a key point. The date matters as well.

Here, after a little over 200 years China gave up.

So here I agree- I made a mistake. Not a typo but a mistake on my part. China claimed Taiwan for 200 years. I won't concede that China controlled Taiwan for that period, but that is a small point anyway.

Japan only claimed Taiwan for about 50 years.


Taiwan may be related to the Han Chinese- so? This is like saying most white Americans living in the south east are related to the Scotch and Irish. Maybe, but it doesn't matter.

    this would be like Arizona, New Mexico, California, etc. being claimed by Mexico in 1916 (WW I). Mexico/Spain had controlled the area for centuries. Most of the people were Hispanic.

China is modern China, not some conglomeration of dynasties ranging from Han to Ming to Manchu. Modern China has no claim to Taiwan as far as I am concerned. Any claim she did have, which was no more than the claim of a conqueror anyway, was given up to Japan.

Korea ruled/controlled by Japan-
Same deal- the Treaty of Shimonoseki (1895)

Now tell me this didn't happen? And, as above, the linguistic relationship link is not the point. That's like saying North and South Korea are one and the same- they aren't.

Starting the Japanese-Chinese, war I agree 100%. Japan started it, carried it out with barbarism and sought to turn vast areas of China into nothing more than a human slaughterhouse.

The A-bombs I agree with as well. However, the 'divine wind' that saved Japan from China came and destroyed the American invasion forces on Okinawa as well. This is not in American classroom history books.

I disagree as to which nation is the most militaristic. Both have historically shown a penchant for militarism and conquest. Both also have found no fault with themselves in conquering others for resources.

Back on topic-
The U.S. can not deal with China as any other nation. China has a different agenda and isn't letting the world know what it is or how they intend to accomplish it. America can only out flank China by changing, and this is not going to happen. America has become a brute to the world. South America is forming ties to China while trying to gain some distance from the U.S. America caused this state of events and will pay dearly for it.

rapier hits the high points with China.

The Chinese can collapse the American economy within 30 days by one simple (although unlikely) move- demand payment on the debt instruments they own.

While China owns enormous sums of American government debt it is still not enough. China must have even larger sums of money to grow. Growth seems to be more important than damaging the American economy, let's hope it stays that way. China is like a mortgage holder that needs the mortgagee. Call the note due and end up with no market, an antagonistic competitor that still controls the Panama Canal and probably a U.S. Navy base on Taiwan- then let's see who claims Taiwan.

Japan is not going to be idle. All too many people focus on China alone, Japan (Inc.) is a power house. While many peoples dislike the Japanese for various reasons they Japanese have shown themselves to be very adept at mending bridges.

koji brings up (reminds us) that this is now, not the past. Clear the cob webs and see what is happening today with China.

Special note:
IF oil is a focus for China (Venezuela proves this to a degree) then Vietnam and China still have unfinished business. China has many potential enemies.
.

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posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 05:05 AM
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Joe, where is your link from, you should just read Wikipedia, thats pretty clear.

Your claims on Taiwan are a bit wrong.

Taiwan has being a province way, way ago, hundreds of years before European colonists took it from China.

1650, the Dutch were not driven by out Taiwanese.

It was retaken by the remnant of the Ming forces, Most of the population of "so called Taiwanese" are Hakka, descendents from Fujian, there are pretty much considered Han nowdays.

From your own quote.



the resistance of the Chinese people against the "foreign" rulers continued underground.


resistance of the Chinese people against the "foreign" Manchus that comprised the Qing dynasty (heir to the Ming dynasty).

This was because, like i said, the Ming Han were the controlling force of Taiwan after the Dutch.



Taiwan was ceded (get this?) to Japan in 1895. This is a key point. The date matters as well.


Correct, Japan defeated China and the Qing dynasty ceded Taiwan. That pretty much proves that the Qing controlled it don't you think?

But Taiwan is technically still a province of the China. The U.S gave it back to the ROC, Chiang's government after the end of WW2. The ROC at the time represented China. After it lost the war, it fled to Taiwan, Taiwan already had ROC bases at that time.



China is modern China, not some conglomeration of dynasties ranging from Han to Ming to Manchu. Modern China has no claim to Taiwan as far as I am concerned. Any claim she did have, which was no more than the claim of a conqueror anyway, was given up to Japan.


Ar, you see, thats where you would be disagreeing with every single Chinese person. China is the conglomeration of every dynasty since the Qin and Han times. The name China derives from China's first unified dynasty of Qin.

And China Taiwan was not conquered, the current population of Taiwan is 98% Hakka and Hokkien (which are nowdays considered Han) from Mainland China, and 2% aborigines.

The claim about Japan is the typical argument nowdays that spur the Taiwanese independence movement. But it isn't logical, after the war, the Republic of China was given Taiwan, but then they lost a civil war.

That is important, it means that Taiwan was already part of China, and then the ROC lost the civil war. China still has every legal reason to own Taiwan, but that probably matters little.

I know this is perhaps hard to understand but for Chinese people, China is bigger then each dynasty, every dynasty change is simply a continuation of China.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by rapier28

JoeDoaks posted
China is modern China, not some conglomeration of dynasties ranging from Han to Ming to Manchu. Modern China has no claim to Taiwan as far as I am concerned. Any claim she did have, which was no more than the claim of a conqueror anyway, was given up to Japan.


Ar, you see, thats where you would be disagreeing with every single Chinese person. China is the conglomeration of every dynasty since the Qin and Han times. The name China derives from China's first unified dynasty of Qin.
- -
I know this is perhaps hard to understand but for Chinese people, China is bigger then each dynasty, every dynasty change is simply a continuation of China.

Sure- I get it, I just don't buy it.

I comprehend the 'China forever' routine. It fits their psyche. This is one of the reasons for trying to understand Chinese ambitions. I have always held that China will pursue a goal long after others have quit, because the Chinese believe they are the center of the universe (or earth as it may be) and time is relative. 100 years to the Chinese is acceptable for a goal, most other nations strain at 20.

China likes to 'own' certain areas but more importantly wants to hold sway over a larger sphere- this is their history and I don't see it changed.

Korea, northern Indo-China, parts of Kashmir and some of the 'tans' lands as well. China looks to its farthest expansion in history and claims that area for all time. Modern China does this because it is in their interest to do so.

I don't agree with the Taiwan claims regardless of the historicity. Which brand of Chinaman landed there and which brand was in control is a non-issue for me. Taiwan has been on its own since 1949 and doesn't want to be tied to China.

This matters today.

In five years, who nows? Maybe things will change and the U.S. will back off. When that happens then Taiwan will rejoin China. Differently from the Hong-Kong assimilation but no war. China will not invade Taiwan, it will take it economically when the time is ripe.

On its (China's) road to greatness, Venezuelan oil, South American resources and markets for its goods will be pursued with vigor. The Chinese are on a roll at the moment. They are bent on re-establishing China's position as the most powerful country on the planet. While doing so the Chinese are going to be ever mindful of their neighbors and opponents.
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posted on Apr, 22 2005 @ 05:10 AM
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Wow you sound like you're saying the Chinese are going to conquer the world(though i believe any intelligent beings will not).

China's goal : To take over the World?
Pls, u sure know the reason for the construction of the Great Wall? To lock ourselves in and keep foreigners like you out. We even gave up our superior navy. BTW, if China wants to take over the world, it will have done so long ago.

I believe you are refering to the evil communist government and its ideas of expending its sphere of influence, not the Chinese race. On a friendly note, pls don't mix Chinese with communist.



[edit on 22-4-2005 by NotheRaGe]




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