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Why isn't The Raelian Message taken more seriously?

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posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by siriuslyone
'Be careful if $$ is involved in any teaching or account'
Anyone could write a book for $$.........


The books he has published about the ETs/Cloning are available for free now. Have been for some time. Also, their organisation is non-profit. Rael and his team aren't paid. I believe he gets paid through another book or magazine he has written when he was younger.

And even if he did get paid, what is wrong with that? The information in the books are invaluable, IMO!

And I'm pretty sure the money he got from selling these books went directly to the research of Cloning, that would make a lot more sense. I see it as a worthy investment.




posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Why do YOU think the cause isn't being taken seriously enough?
Why do YOU think the cause is worthy of being taken seriously?
Why do YOU think we should think twice ourselves?


Originally posted by eudaimonia
The books he has published about the ETs/Cloning are available for free now. Have been for some time. Also, their organisation is non-profit. Rael and his team aren't paid.

And even if he did get paid, what is wrong with that? The information in the books are invaluable, IMO!

And I'm pretty sure the money he got from selling these books went directly to the research of Cloning, that would make a lot more sense. I see it as a worthy investment.


That does sound an awful lot like you're trying to sell this as a positive and get more people involved. Tread lightly.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 08:51 PM
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Man, haven't heard from Rael in a while, thought that all went down the drain when he made the big attention grab announcement of human clones. Only to be caught with his pants down when asked for proof.

Rael is exactly a religion. No matter what you might say eudaimonia. He asks for faith and control without giving an ounce of proof to back up any of his claims. Its your free right to choose to believe him, but demanding why others do not choose to believe as you do is just silly.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia
In what way do they appear as frauds and liars? If you can convince me, I'd love to hear it.


I don't know if i can convince you necessarily. But they claimed, emphatically, to have created a human clone. They've never supported that with anything, and its terribly obvious that they don't have the technological capabilities to do so. Hence, in my understanding of it, they're frauds and liars.

I can 'buy' all the other stuff, the voluptuous robot aliens that took rael to their space ship, the silly outfits, the whole sheebang, afterall, hows an alien visitiation less 'bizzare' than a visit from the virigin mary? How are the raelian practices any more strange that sliceing off the foreskin of the penis to make god happy or transubstantiating bread into human flesh and consuming it? Its certainly not.

But they calim to have made a clone, and have even, if i recall correctly, said that they'd cooperate and give proof. They haven't, because they're liars.


Are you a member of the group? Your name and avatar (currently anyway) indicate an interest in classical philsophy. Are you familiar with raelian beleifs? How do any of their beleifs jive with classical philosophy (of course, thats such a wide category that the question might be useless)? Not saying they cant or don't, or even need to, just wondering.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 01:50 AM
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>>The books he has published about the ETs/Cloning are available for free now. Have been for some time. Also, their organisation is non-profit. Rael and his team aren't paid. I believe he gets paid through another book or magazine he has written when he was younger.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 02:04 AM
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the money he got from selling these books went directly to the research of Cloning, that would make a lot more sense.


-you've really put a lot of trust in Rael. Also, if you supported open-mindedness as you claim, you would recognize the belief in an all-powerfull god to be just as 'out-there' as Raelian beliefs. However, you said belief in God is outdated.


I believe it's time for humanity to remove the concept of God altogether honestly. It's time to evolve and mature from this primitive way of thinking.


then gods wrath will be a wake-up call. you might call this gullible and primitive to still live in fear of god, but as this thread has illustrated - at some level or another we all must succumb to faith. face it: we dont have all the answers. my human attempts to understand eternity have rooted my faith in a God. i will leave it at that.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 02:15 AM
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Why do YOU think the cause isn't being taken seriously enough?


There can be so many reasons why, but each skeptic on this issue will usually have either one or two reasons for not taking it seriously. Sometimes three from what I've been observing on this thread. The first one is the bad rap these ufo groups have (historically speaking), claiming they have seen the light and whatnot and dress up in extravagant clothing asking others to join because they believe their way is the only way to find god and truth. Heaven's Gate is a good example, one that ended tragically. I could understand why anyone looking at a group like that then look at a group like the Raelians would shake their head and walk away. But the Raelians are different. Yes, yes, so what right? Well, all topics covered throughout Rael's book are down to earth everyday issues that affect us in our daily lives. The basic information presented are questions such as who are we, where do we come from, and where are we going. Then it deals more in depth about religion, bible, politics, law, morality, ethics, science, relationships, love, violence, technology, etc. etc. Now, when you take a step back and look at the big picture at what Rael is trying to say in his writings, it's actually not a bad thing at all. Sure, some things may seem a bit out there, but is there any reason for me NOT to believe it when I already believe the fantastic such as life on other planets and ufo technology? So why should I limit myself (but not blindly) to what Rael is saying and consider it true?

The next popular reason is that most people will say, "Well, why will an ET come to this french race driver of all people and give him this superior knowledge when nobody even knows who he is!", or "Why claim you know the truth and try to make money off of it?"

I answer that with a question as well. Why not? Would you have prefered someone who had the charisma of moses? jesus? buddah? One who was given supernatural powers for the world to see? It doesn't work that way, not in the 21st century. See, for me, I don't see how being a french race driver has any significance in finding if this group is full of it, or telling the truth. You have to look elsewhere, if you plan to debunk him totally.

Third reason I found is that since there hasn't been hard proof of the cloned baby, everyone throws their arms up in the air and gives up the hope. What makes you think that when the time of your asking for information is not given, it is automatically a lie?

I say, give it time. What's the rush? I already know it IS possible to clone a human, hell, I bet it's been done already by someone not in the Raelian movement! If you can prove to me that the probability of successfully cloning a human being is very low, then please be my guest and educate us. But I believe it CAN be done!



Why do YOU think the cause is worthy of being taken seriously?


Worthy of being taken seriously because it's the most logical explaination to biblical passages. Leaving humanity to reevaluate their own life, beliefs, and the world around them. It stimulates conversation and ideas and it's a good step for everyone to understand that there is more to life than a 9-5 job, marriage, and death. A destructive cycle that leaves no room for self-discovery and world awareness.


Why do YOU think we should think twice ourselves?

Think twice because you will never know when or where the truth will hit you if you start turning away from all sides of knowledge. No matter how strange or whimsical it might sound, at least take the time to accept it as a possibility. And possibilities is where man will evolve to a greater good.



That does sound an awful lot like you're trying to sell this as a positive and get more people involved. Tread lightly.



Positive, Yes. Get people involved/convinced? No.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by Kano
Man, haven't heard from Rael in a while, thought that all went down the drain when he made the big attention grab announcement of human clones. Only to be caught with his pants down when asked for proof.

Rael is exactly a religion. No matter what you might say eudaimonia. He asks for faith and control without giving an ounce of proof to back up any of his claims. Its your free right to choose to believe him, but demanding why others do not choose to believe as you do is just silly.


I spoke about the clone baby issue to Amorymeltzer, if you wish to read it, be my guest.

I don't believe I've ever said the opposite when it comes to calling Rael's group a religion. It sure is, but it's a religion that's done right. He doesn't ask for faith, he asks for understanding, big difference. He says it himself very clearly.

I have not demanded, and if I came across that way, I apologize. I just simply want to stimulate conversation, that is all.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by siriuslyone
>>The books he has published about the ETs/Cloning are available for free now. Have been for some time. Also, their organisation is non-profit. Rael and his team aren't paid. I believe he gets paid through another book or magazine he has written when he was younger.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by lost



-you've really put a lot of trust in Rael.


Haven't found a good reason not to.


Also, if you supported open-mindedness as you claim, you would recognize the belief in an all-powerfull god to be just as 'out-there' as Raelian beliefs. However, you said belief in God is outdated.


This is where we differ, I for one see no real comparison between an all-powerful unseen god and one that as real as you and me, physical in form creating life as advanced extraterrestrial scientists.



then gods wrath will be a wake-up call. you might call this gullible and primitive to still live in fear of god, but as this thread has illustrated - at some level or another we all must succumb to faith. face it: we dont have all the answers. my human attempts to understand eternity have rooted my faith in a God. i will leave it at that.



Having faith in science makes more sense. Eternity is based on science. Faith alone limits human intelligence and limits human progress.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia

Well, it seems we have the first likely candidate that will take this a little more seriously than the rest here lol

Nothing has been proven wrong, your correct. So my question is, why begin to attack without even looking at all his work first?

Just to be a little off topic, it's interesting how in this video Rael points out the destructive behavior that George W. Bush and his administration have towards the country. He even points out Farhenheit 9/11! (A plus for me, by the way haha)



Yep. You got me hook, line and sinker. I have no belief system or god for that matter which makes it a little easier for me to believe but still I am skeptical. I am worried for the people that might not be able to comprehend this sort of information, hence why so many people are not happy to see this information.

All this guy is saying, build an embassy and inform the public, there is no money involved as I found out by downloading all books for free and have started to read the message.

In fact it is promoting what I have been trying to say to people for a long time!! WE NEED NOT HAVE MONEY!!!

They are not forcing this information on to you, they are simply informing the public of their arrival.

Now don't get me wrong before seeing or reading any of the raelian information I would have said Aliens ha. they do exist but they don't want to visit us, then realise they actually created us!!! How else do you explain no in-between species. And the FACT that the old testament says elohim translated from hebrew to "Those who come from the sky" they do not refer to as gods, we mistook them as gods.

Does this mean that all the holy books were written by these beings??? Then that means we are speaking their language. Now I know to alot of people this seem unreal and cannot be true, I say WHY NOT???

The universe is truly emense!!! Why can't this be true??? We are on a VERY SMALL planet in space surrounded by billions and billions of stars and planets then by billions and billions of clouds of galaxies etc. etc.

Alot of people are going to say, how did they get here, its too far for them to travel from the nearest star, well I too have this problem in mind???

When are we going to start building the embassy???

When will they reveal themselves to us???

1) Earth and everything on and around it was created by an all powerful being???

2) Life started as organisms in the ocean and eventually evolved into us???

3) All life was created artificially by other beings that watched over their creation until the time came for us to understand this and learn from them.

Hmmmmmmmmm.....................At this point in time I gonna go with number 3 for now anyways.

I will listen to anyone that can completly 100% with PROOF that this is not BS. my intuition and 60,000 people tell me otherwise.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 04:38 AM
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Actually the Raelian Movement never anounced it had cloned humans.

This announcement was made by the company clonaid who run by a Raelian.

In the Raelian Movement there are many scientist.
Cloning is a fact , it can be done and with the know how its quite easy.
Chinese scientists have recently cloned 60 embryos from the one cell.

Ive been practicing the Raelian phylosophy for almost 14 years.
Its had a benificial impact on my life.
Its not about the money I can asure , and the door is always open , we can leave at any time the movement. In fact I know of a few people who have left the movement and later come back at their free will.

Rael is just the mail man. He was given a message and asked to spread it around the world. The rest is up to the humanity to decide.



www.raelianmovement.org...



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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i have herd of the raelian movement before but never had any real information on them, thanks eudaimonia for posting the links to those books, i had a deep read of them, an found them very interesting, i also had a long think about them for quite a few days and also looking at some of the arguement against raelians i must say the questions some ppl ask could easily be answered just by reading even the 1st book properly before attacking them.
but i really did try to believe this because it sounds great but ultimately it doesnt make sense in the end not for the content or supposely 'factual' errors that some other people have said but simply becuase of this: the elhoim are a race that doesnt have any religion except science, therefore it would be safe to assume if they exsist they are a logical race, being based on science and all that hyposises and research etcetcetc... so then why would they expect mankind to simply believe them without any proof whatsoever? sound rather illogical to me, and yet they slam the church for doing the exact same thing.. wtf?
like i said though i did try to make this work for me but that is quite a large contradiction on the simplest scale to me

well that my 2 cents anyway
thanks again eudaimonia for the links though was very interesting



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 05:50 AM
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I pity people who follow the raelian nonsense



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 05:58 AM
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Having faith in science makes more sense. Eternity is based on science. Faith alone limits human intelligence and limits human progress.


right.... well sorry - we're going to have to agree to disagree. sure, science puts everything in a nice little box for you. science will try to catagorize everything not yet catagorized - so yeah i know why people lean on it. it also offers proof. thats a plus.

eternity cannot be based on science. science is logic and even logic cannot explain eternity. really, how can you 'base' it on anything? its a concept - not even a proven one at that. its an idea. and ironically its an idea that no matter how hard you try - your logic cannot unfold it.

try that on for size- even raels elohim lack an explanation. the voice on the video describes universes within atoms racing into eternity. Throwing a little loop on the concept doesnt mean you understand it. and even though rael wears a "swastica/star of david" does not mean he understands it............ pretty necklace though.

Human logic fundamentally CANNOT grasp it - and WILL NOT. better yet - raels elohim CANNOT and WILL NOT grasp it. have they travelled through every atom and universe into infintiy? NO! they have not, and CANNOT. if they cannot view and study 'eternity' completely as a whole, their science is jumping to conclusions. agreed?

say yes. you know it.

pay attention: rael and his elohim purport to understand 'eternity'. we both know this is fundementally impossible. therefore they are confused and/or lying.

my money says lying, because after all - they are oh so advanced.

now thats logic.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 07:05 AM
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I read some of the Raelian stuff. Does seem to make some sense.

But I do have some disagreements. I'll mention one of them, I have to go to work.

No spirit. Bad, bad lie, whether intentional or not. As sure as I am sitting here spirits do exist. Look at those who have had past life memories, the old body is dead and gone, yet a person remembers a life from that dead body. That dead body includes the brain, and it's 6 feet under ground too!

Troy



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by cybertroy
I read some of the Raelian stuff. Does seem to make some sense.

But I do have some disagreements. I'll mention one of them, I have to go to work.

No spirit. Bad, bad lie, whether intentional or not. As sure as I am sitting here spirits do exist. Look at those who have had past life memories, the old body is dead and gone, yet a person remembers a life from that dead body. That dead body includes the brain, and it's 6 feet under ground too!

Troy




You know, the spirit part of this also has me scratching my head. Maybe roybass could educate me and others who have the same question in terms of how the Raelians view the spirit realm. I know I keep hearing stories that when people have NDE (near death experiences), they feel as if they're floating around looking at themselves and others. But...what's the real explaination to this? Is it really called a spirit, or something else?

Roybass, if you read this, I'd like your input. 14 years of study is impressive lol



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia
What makes you think that when the time of your asking for information is not given, it is automatically a lie?

Because they stated that they can demonstrate it. They stated that they hda done it, and they stated that they would demonstrate it. Just when the issue was really hitting the news, and it just happened to get them on things like CNN and the other major media places. It might, for example, be enough to stand up in court under a fraud claim, but its certainly not absolute proof that they are liars and charlatans, but it goes a very long way of demonstrating it.


If you can prove to me that the probability of successfully cloning a human being is very low, then please be my guest and educate us. But I believe it CAN be done!

Can? Yes. By the raelians, almost absolutely not. They do not have the technical expertise. Yes, they have a geneticist amoung their numbers. No, not any geneticist can clone humans. Its surprisingly difficult. I agree, its definitly possible, heck, some groups might've done it. But the raelians? No, almost certianly not, the idea is infact laughable. THey're a small group, with little technical expertise on the matter, and its somethign of a joke to say that they cloned a human w/o cloning anything else first. If they had cloned a livestock animal, even one that'd already been cloned, then it'd be beleivable. But they've never done anything in the field that was noteworthy, and now they claim to have done something so cutting edge, and it 'just happened' to give them media attentio? bah.

Worthy of being taken seriously because it's the most logical explaination to biblical passages.

How is it logical if its a faith based religion?

Think twice because you will never know when or where the truth will hit you if you start turning away from all sides of knowledge

I suspect that there are a lot of people who are aware of them who have given them consideration and rejected them completely.

Haven't found a good reason not to.

His lies and manipulation of the media don't even give you pause?

Are you a raelian? Forgive me if this has been covered.


Having faith in science makes more sense.

Faith and science are antithetical. Faith in science is nonsense, in all honesty. If Rael is really advocating a 'Science as religion' type movement then there is even less reason to take them seriously, and in fact more reason to directly and openly oppose them as part of the psedu-scientific anti-rational movement that is something of a social and intellectual cancer.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by roybassActually the Raelian Movement never anounced it had cloned humans.

This announcement was made by the company clonaid who run by a Raelian.

So, as a member, is it your estimation that Clonaid are the frauds?

Doesn't it tell you something that Rael was right alongside the executive? And that the cloning was said to be part of the groups philosophy of immortality?

I mean, lets not pretend that the Raelians have nothing to do with the cloning episode now, the company is run by a raelian and is part of the raelian organization, because its funded by the raelian organization and directed by the organization.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by lost

Having faith in science makes more sense. Eternity is based on science. Faith alone limits human intelligence and limits human progress.


right.... well sorry - we're going to have to agree to disagree. sure, science puts everything in a nice little box for you. science will try to catagorize everything not yet catagorized - so yeah i know why people lean on it. it also offers proof. thats a plus.


Well, not in a little box, it's more of making use of this tool for all things in life, for present and future possibilities. Science should be the first step, a guide so to speak, for finding answers in situations that seem inexplicable.



eternity cannot be based on science. science is logic and even logic cannot explain eternity. really, how can you 'base' it on anything? its a concept - not even a proven one at that. its an idea. and ironically its an idea that no matter how hard you try - your logic cannot unfold it.


We may have different defintions or perception of what Eternity is, or as Rael calls it Infinity, but basically the same. Anyway, as I see Infinity it is the human connection with the big picture, the universe, the planet, the stars, and how we are just this tiny speck...yet still in harmony with everything in it. We are part of it, part of everything. The cells in your body, to the very atom is all in relation to the Infinity...and with the universe. It is becoming one with everything, this Infinity, that makes it logical.



try that on for size- even raels elohim lack an explanation. the voice on the video describes universes within atoms racing into eternity. Throwing a little loop on the concept doesnt mean you understand it. and even though rael wears a "swastica/star of david" does not mean he understands it............ pretty necklace though.


I think you've not understood the message then. I agree, it is nice.


Human logic fundamentally CANNOT grasp it - and WILL NOT. better yet - raels elohim CANNOT and WILL NOT grasp it. have they travelled through every atom and universe into infintiy? NO! they have not, and CANNOT. if they cannot view and study 'eternity' completely as a whole, their science is jumping to conclusions. agreed?


These are pretty harsh accusations, claiming that the Elohim nor humans cannot grasp the idea of Eternity/Infinity and that because they haven't traveled through ever atom in the universe (which seems almost an impossible feat), that their view is illogical and therefore a fraud!

No I do not agree.


say yes. you know it.


No lol


pay attention: rael and his elohim purport to understand 'eternity'. we both know this is fundementally impossible. therefore they are confused and/or lying.

my money says lying, because after all - they are oh so advanced.

now thats logic.


I'm not convinced of your concept of logic.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by eudaimonia]




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