J-10 production in problems?

More bad news for you chinawhite :

The biggest concern, they said, was a new push by China in recent years to gather intelligence on military-related technology and strategic policy secrets.

"China would be the biggest now by a fair way," said one source, who said Chinese spies now outnumbered Russian agents who were previously Australia's biggest epsionnage concern.

"They have built up their capabilities over the last 10 years and are more aggressive in their activities," the source was quoted as saying.

China has one of the largest diplomatic corps in Australia, with 40 registered diplomats.

The new counter-espionage unit has been set up within the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), the government's main intelligence agency, and is already operational, The Australian said

read full article..........


and the US too ..

China has the great advantage of many ethnic Chinese all over the world and it is known they use them for intelligence. According to a new Pentagon report and China wathers, China is improving its far-flung system of human spies, recruits, sleeper agents and electronic eavesdropping in tandem with its build up of conventional military power. Since the mid-1980s China has developed the world's third- largest capability, after the U.S. and Russia, to intercept conversations and messages, according to the "Intelligence Threat Handbook'' distributed to Pentagon personnel.

China has a robust human spy system within the U.S.–– seven diplomatic establishments and 2,750 commercial offices in addition to an estimated 100,000 current and former students from the Peoples Republic, the handbook said. In addition, 27,000 PRC delegates visit the U.S. annually, it said.

Chinese intelligence makes an active effort to recruit Chinese-Americans, although “there is no evidence that the PRC considers Chinese-Americans to be more vulnerable to approach than any other group,” the book said.

“Chinese human intelligence operations rely on collecting a small amount of information from a large number'' of ethnic Chinese, it said. “The PRC attempts to recruit or at least ‘make friends' with as many Chinese-Americans as possible, apparently hoping that at least some will perceive an obligation to help China, perhaps on a confidential basis.''

read full....

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by chinawhite
theres is no proof that israel ever gave china the designs for the LAVI.. I found a article accusing israel of sending the designs but was denied OFFICALLY

Care to explain this :

Look at this official confession

David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

link

Take a look at this official report
the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare restated more strongly that technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia

link


And this too...

In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"

link

so much for deny ignorance ...

You are a fool

i said israel denies giving china the LAVI desgin while all you post are just some quotes stating israel helped out in the design...

your indian educated english fails you again or is it plain ignorance

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
More bad news for you chinawhite :

The biggest concern, they said, was a new push by China in recent years to gather intelligence on military-related technology and strategic policy secrets.

"China would be the biggest now by a fair way," said one source, who said Chinese spies now outnumbered Russian agents who were previously Australia's biggest epsionnage concern.

"They have built up their capabilities over the last 10 years and are more aggressive in their activities," the source was quoted as saying.

China has one of the largest diplomatic corps in Australia, with 40 registered diplomats.

The new counter-espionage unit has been set up within the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation (ASIO), the government's main intelligence agency, and is already operational, The Australian said

read full article..........


and the US too ..

China has the great advantage of many ethnic Chinese all over the world and it is known they use them for intelligence. According to a new Pentagon report and China wathers, China is improving its far-flung system of human spies, recruits, sleeper agents and electronic eavesdropping in tandem with its build up of conventional military power. Since the mid-1980s China has developed the world's third- largest capability, after the U.S. and Russia, to intercept conversations and messages, according to the "Intelligence Threat Handbook'' distributed to Pentagon personnel.

China has a robust human spy system within the U.S.–– seven diplomatic establishments and 2,750 commercial offices in addition to an estimated 100,000 current and former students from the Peoples Republic, the handbook said. In addition, 27,000 PRC delegates visit the U.S. annually, it said.

Chinese intelligence makes an active effort to recruit Chinese-Americans, although “there is no evidence that the PRC considers Chinese-Americans to be more vulnerable to approach than any other group,” the book said.

“Chinese human intelligence operations rely on collecting a small amount of information from a large number'' of ethnic Chinese, it said. “The PRC attempts to recruit or at least ‘make friends' with as many Chinese-Americans as possible, apparently hoping that at least some will perceive an obligation to help China, perhaps on a confidential basis.''

read full....

I have already answer your ignorant posts before about spies

china could hire western spies for the same job and would be more harder to detect

situation

room full of western sciencist a chinese enters prodes through important documents...to me it sounds awfully obviious that his a spie....


now for a westerner.

westerner enters a room full of westerners prodes through computers leaves with documents...my supsicion is not aroused

Originally posted by chinawhite

I have already answer your ignorant posts before about spies

Perhaps another example of your "superior" english grammar

..and you say israel have denied selling tech to china...read my posts... David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense has confessed to israeli involvement.

No it cant get any official than that.

You would have known it, had you read my post that you quoted and called me a fool for.

Yet another example of your "superior" education ?? And now everyone knows who the fool is.

God...try telling things to a brick wall.

[edit on 21-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by chinawhite

I have already answer your ignorant posts before about spies

Perhaps another example of your "superior" english grammar

..and you say israel have denied selling tech to china...read my posts... David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense has confessed to israeli involvement.

No it cant get any official than that.

You would have known it, had you read my post that you quoted and called me a fool for.

Yet another example of your "superior" education ?? And now everyone knows who the fool is.

God...try telling things to a brick wall.

[edit on 21-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

i never denied that i said that israel denies selling china the LAVI design....Jesus i said this to you 5 times already...

go to night school pick up some more BASIC grammer then talk again

Let me get this straight.

You say .>>. Israel has denied giving LAVI's stuff to China

I say >> You are wrong, Israel have confessed that they gave LAVI's stuff to China. And to back my claims i have quoted David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense confessing that Israel have given the LAVI's stuff to China.

I hope that make you understand what's going on.

And i wont retaliate with any insults.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Let me get this straight.

You say .>>. Israel has denied giving LAVI's stuff to China

I say >> You are wrong, Israel have confessed that they gave LAVI's stuff to China. And to back my claims i have quoted David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense confessing that Israel have given the LAVI's stuff to China.

I hope that make you understand what's going on.

And i wont retaliate with any insults.

i say >>> israel denies giving china LAVI design

you say>>> israel gave china LAVI tech

A design and tech are different in the english language


You get the difference.

alright israel might have denied it, but the USA has said that israel gave china the lavi design...come on its an open secret

If you actually take a look at the specs and airframe you will see these 2 planes are different. Try looking at this pic THEN say that J-10 is a copy of the Lavi. The wing is different, the canopy is further back, different canards, fatter nose etc etc, so much so that the J-10 looks more like the Japanese F-2 with canards rather than the Lavi.

Oh, please I can't hear that discussion any longer !

At least take a look at this comparison (www.arcforums.com...) at the Aircraft Recource Center-Forum ....

The dimensions for the Lavi are given as:

Span: 8,78 m
Length: 14,57 m
Height: 4,78 m

.... what makes me wonder is that there are still no "official" dimensions for the J-10A. For the most recent 1/72 scale kit Trumpeter "modeled" the length in 1/72 to 225 mm = 16,20 m
and the wingspan in 1/72 again to 130 mm = 9,36 m !!! ... similar to the Typhoon !

See this comparison of the Trumpeter's J-10A and Revell's Eurofighter fuselage !!

on top the J-10A ... below the Typhoon ..... both scanned to same scale and same resolution !!





I had some time left during the last hour and so I played around a little bit with my scanner !

Here a comparison of the J-10A scanned to 1/144 scale for a length of 11,25 cm including the probe ! ... and the same for a 1/144 scale Lavi scanned to a lenght of 10,15 cm (-> 14,57 m) !!!

Both together in 1/144 scale for comparison !





Deino

Finally someone gets what I mean... The J-10 is so much different from the Lavi's airframe that it already resembles a EUROFIGHTER with a single engine more than a LAVI.

All I can say is .... AMEN !!!

Deino

Now wait up i'm not finished yet.

Check out the Israeli LAVI's(Lavi - Israel's failed attempt to develop its own modified F-16 despite spending 2 billion $ on it):




Now here is a pic of an early J-10 prototype, that was perhaps an outright copy of the LAVI :




look at the first J-10 fighter model photo revealed by an internal press of the Chinese Aircraft Industry in the early 90's; clearly this is an outright copy of the Israeli Lavi that Israel sold to China.

look again :

Lavi :
and the early J-10 :

In the mid-90's 2 of these prototypes crashed and upon further study design changes were asked for. Now this is the time that Russia stepped into the J-10 project as Russia had very little money (collapse of USSR) and appears to have helped China in redesigning. The tail fin is new, the intakes are new and the delta wing has minor modifications and the canards are slightly moved, the FBW software codes are corrected and Russia provide the J-10 with their Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan to power the J-10. And the new J-10 is born.





And warlord buddy if you know i have alredy posted the pic you have posted above a few pages back. And quit using my images on pakistani forums (as i've seen you post it on PDF)

And form being an outright copy, the J-10 has evolved like this possibly due to Russian+Israeli help. But that dose'nt take away the fact that it is nothing but an evolution of an outright copy.



And also its no secret that China have also copied the Russian engine.
Its laser deignation pod is also a copy of the Israeli Rafael Litening


and let me throw some light on its missiles :

The famed PL-12 or SD-10
The PL-12 was said to be derived from the Italian Aspide technology and integrated with active radar-homing seeker technology obtained from Russia.

The missile was developed indigenously, but also with helps from foreign manufacturers. Several Russian missile and subsystem developers are reportedly supporting the program, with much of the missile utilizing components from the R-77 (AA-12 Adder).

In 1996 China revealed an active radar-homing seeker AMR-1, which is possibly based on Russian technology. Claimed to be developed for the new generation active radar-homing MRAAM, the AMR-1 seeker or its developed variant could be used to guide the SD-10.
www.sinodefence.com...


PL-11
Chinese copy of Italian Alenia's Aspide missile (which inturn was derived from the U.S. AIM-7E Sparrow) that it got in the late 1980s
www.sinodefence.com...

PL-9
Apart from its control surfaces the PL-9 is almost identical to the Israeli Python-3, which was developed from the AIM-9L. The one major difference, according to information in Jane's All the World's Aircraft, is that the PL-9 has only about one-third the range of the Python 3.

China has improved upon the PL-9 by marrying it to an apparent copy of the Arsenel helmet sight from the R-73.
www.sinodefence.com...

PL-8
The PL-8 infrared homing short-range air-to-air missile is a Chinese copy of the Israeli Python-3.
www.sinodefence.com...

The PL-4
The PL-4 is a Chinese copy of the U.S. AIM-7B Sparrow. (from Pak ?)
www.sinodefence.com...

Its other missiles : R-73, R-77, R-27 - These are Russian missiles.

and on the 20 + development and crashes of the J-10 :

The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous.

The prototype was rumored to have first flown in 1996, but the project suffered a serious setback in late 1997 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, as the result of certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine.

link

The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous.

The first prototype was set to fly between 1995-96, powered by a newly designed WS-10 turbofan. However the development of this indigenous engine suffered some serious difficulties and thus the rear fuselage and engine intake were forced to be redesigned in order to accommodate an alternative AL-31FN engine imported from Russia. As the result, the first prototype (01) made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998, two years behind the schedule. The project suffered another setback between 1998-99 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, caused by certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine.

in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.

link

did someone say "amen"..... it dose'nt apply to me as i'm not christian

[edit on 10-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

this is a J-10 doesn't even look like a LAVI






artist impression

look again :

Lavi :

and the early J-10 :

thats a photoshop and i pointed it out already

this is a copy



external image

^^^^^^^^^^
Chinawhite, i dont not intend any offence, but would you care to substantiate your seemingly untrue claims with links. ??

IMO that is as wise or as unwise as calling the Eurofighter a copy of the Rafale !!!!

The only thing that the LCA Tejas shares in common with the Mirage-2000 of the IAF is that both are delta winged single engined multirole aircrafts. Nothing more or nothing less than that.

I dont intend any offence,but are you trying to say that the LCA is a copy of the Mirage just because the J-10 is heavily based on the Lavi ?

Here is a comparitive side by side showing the toatly indepandant designs of the LCA and the Mirage. (the image is not to scale)



Look at the positions of the air intakes man, its clarly a totally different design.

Here is a look at the Mirage -2000 :


and look at the where the LCA's air intakes(& compare it with the mirage) are and its dart like design.




And read what waynos had to say on this :

Originally posted by waynos
I never cease to be amazed how many people supposedly 'into' aircraft completely fail to distinguish between completely different types just because there is a superficial similarity that wouldn't fool a 10 year old with only a modest interest in the subject.

LCA looks like a Mirage? Yeah, and that Concorde is just a stretched Vulcan!!!

www.belowtopsecret.com...

And here are some specifications of both aircrafts

LCA specs :
Dimensions
Span 8.2 m
Length 13.2 m
Height 4.4 m

Weights
Take-off Clean 8500 kg
Empty 5500 kg
External Stores 4000 kg
------------------------------------
Mirage specs :

Dimensions
wing span 9.1 m
Length 14.6 m
Height 5.2 m

Weights
combat weight 9525 kg
empty weight 7257 kg


And the RCS of the LCA is 1/3 rd that of the Mirage and this is from the data released by ADA-the LCA's makers


And if anyone wants the latest details of the LCA, read this pdf file at : www.aero.iitb.ac.in:8081... THIS IS A MUST_READ; PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE LATEST ARTICLE ON THE LCA-TEJAS

And some more latest news : LCA-Tejas has completed total 428 test flights successfully(TD1-143,TD2-176,PV1-109) ...from www.ada.gov.in...

[edit on 11-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
^^^^^^^^^^
Chinawhite, i dont not intend any offence, but would you care to substantiate your seemingly untrue claims with links. ??


The only thing that the LCA Tejas shares in common with the Mirage-2000 of the IAF is that both are delta winged single engined multirole aircrafts. Nothing more or nothing less than that.

the LCA is 30% imported straight from foriegn compaines wheres the J-10 only uses a russian engine.

35 per cent was allocated towards payment for foreign avionics equipment and consultancy fees

ok indian developed. paid the designers of the mirage to deisgn the LCA for you

IMO that is as wise or as unwise as calling the Eurofighter a copy of the Rafale !!!!

those two dont even look nearly the same. how did you come out with those comparsions



here is a comparison of the J-10 and the Lavi



[edit on 12-7-2005 by chinawhite]

Here are some of the differences which you can see visually.

1. J-10 is obviously larger.

2. The nose is bigger, rounder.

3. Intake is square, variable.

4. Canards do not rake as much. Larger on the J-10 and does not overlap the main wings like the Lavi. Canard aspect of the J-10 is more similar to Viggen.

5. Cannon is on the bottom of the plane. Lavi/F-16 is in the wing root.

6. J-10's wings do not rake as sharply as the Lavi's. Aspect ratio of J-10 is higher, along with a slight double bent in the middle to create a slight inverted gullwing appearance.

7. J-10's rudder is taller and does not rake as much as the Lavi's.

8. J-10 has larger air brakes.

9. J-10 does not have missiles on the wing tips like Lavi.

10. J-10's body is larger, wider, to accomodate increased fuel and the larger engine.

11. J-10 has rounded wingtips, while Lavi's is clipped.

12. Lavi's cockpit is taller, and the pilot sits higher than the J-10's.

here is some thing about the the FC-1

external image

note: the original FC-1 concept was actually based on the Super-7, the Project 33 from MiG, (not to be confused with MiG-33, an ungrade of the baseline MiG-29), has some influences on the FC-1, but by no means is the FC-1 actually based on Project 33.

chinawhite, i dont mean any offence, but the FC-1 is a chinese development of the soviet Mig-33 izdee; this is different from the Mig-33 that was a development of the Mig-29; the izdee is sometimes referred to as the Mig-35 by some but it is widely called the Mig-33 and the pic (black & white that you have posted is of this Russian Mig-33izdee that the FC-1 improves on. China took this Russian R&D design in 1992, when Russia were so poor that they would sell anything.

Read these quotes with links :

The aircraft is based off the design of the MiG-33 which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force.

link

The FC-1 (also known as Super-7) is the single-seat, single-engine multi-role fighter aircraft developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for export market. Derived from the airframe of the MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed with some radical changes, the aircraft provides an affordable choice for many developing countries who are eager to replace their obsolete MiG-21/J-7 fleets.

link

As a substitute for the Super-7, China is developing the FC-1 (Fighter China 1) lightweight multipurpose fighter based on the design for the MiG-33, which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Company [CAIC], based in Sichuan Province, is China's second-largest fighter production base, and the enterprise is cooperating with Russia's Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group [MASPG] in the development of the FC-1.

But with the participation of MASPG, the Russians are using the FC-1 as a continuation of the MiG-33 [R33] program developed in the 1980s. With Russian technical assitance the redesigned FC-11 has improved climbout performance and steering capabilities along with a stronger fuselage. However, the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment to the added tail edgings, providing better aerial.

link

The development of this fighter, the improved copy of Soviet MIG-33 (which R&D was terminated due to absence of money at the beginning of 1990s), started at Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corp., in 1994-95.

More exactly, MIG-33 designers resumed this terminated project in Moscow under supervision of experts from Chengdu city and with financing from PLA. In 1995, Chengdu Corp. purchased 100 units advanced RD-93 jet engines, for the future FC-1, at Klimov Aircraft Corp. in St. Petersburg.

Despite all the efforts, the project dealt with a lot of problems, and only at the beginning of 2001 did it enter the last stage.

link