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J-10 production in problems?

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posted on Jun, 18 2005 @ 12:11 AM
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Nice link Chinawhite.


Seems like a lot of Russian help... many advanced parts, the RP-35 Zhemchug is one of the more advanced Russian radars... avonics are said to be made up of both Israeli and Chinese origin. The Zhemchug radar has datalinking capabilites and many other advanced features.

And Stealth Spy, what is your point on Russian and Israeli help? Little of the original Lavi remains in the J-10, although the J-10 had a big influence from it.


The production of the J-10 has forced China to quickly adapt to current developmental trends; in addition to utilizing other technologies (Russia, Israel) for the benefit of its final product. The results are promising. Not only does the J-10 pose a risk to the Russian fighter export market, but it considerably boosts the Chinese air force's tactical offensive capabilities, especially vis-a-vis Taiwan.




posted on Jun, 19 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Yes i am glad you can accept the facts warlord (unlike your abusive and ever taunting kangaroo friend :lol
.

I would like to call the J-10 a heavily modified Lavi.




posted on Jun, 19 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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chinawhite, what on earth are you talking about? What the hell have the F-18 and MiG29 got in common


If you can't see the differences between the J-10, Lavi and F-16 maybe you should forget about planes and take up stamp collecting?

There is a superficial resemblance to each and both later types are clearly influenced by the design of the F-16 (GD even worked on the LAVI and IAI then helped with the J-10 so a link definitely exists) however the three aircraft are actually quite different in many key areas. I'm surprised you cannot see this as even the photos you posted show many differences.

Finally, Jack who?



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 12:20 AM
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I agree waynos, i am now doubting if the guy can even read.

chinawhite, do you think the J-10 would have existed if there was no LAVI ?

And i see that the guy has no problem saying every piece of nonsense on the LCA's slow and painful development, without looking at the J-10.

The J-10 infact was plagued by even more sivere problems....heck there were crashes of a prototypes...FBW problems...and what not....and was marred by over 20+ years of painful plague like periods.

And all this despite the fact that it is essentially an alredy designed and built LAVI that is tweaked here and there with Russian help.



in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.

link


And the LAVI was Israel's attempt to build a plane that would match the F-16, but was cancelled because they were convinced that it could never do so (even if it did have some minor modifications). Heck the Israeli's spent 2 billion $ on this and then cancelled it, because it was just not good enough.

Now that raises serious doubts about the J-10 being able to "smoke" F-16's as chinawhite claims.

And chinawhite here are some links if you still believe that Israel had nothing to do with the J-10.



China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

It is reported that the J-10's radar and fire-control system is the Chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system




Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

link



David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

The J-10's radar and fire-control system is the chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock on to the four most threatening targets for destruction.

the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia

In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the J-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program".

link



In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"

link

And i wont be surprised if Israel themselves are responsible for the changes on the J-10 from the Lavi, considering the level of Israel-China defence co-operation in the 1990's and onwards (like sale of Harpy's, C4I technology, THEL, Phtyon 3&4 missile technology, etc)



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 12:24 AM
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like i said earlier, its not wrong to take direct external assistance form others, but IMO, it is very wrong to deny the same.


i hope u guys understand



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I agree waynos, i am now doubting if the guy can even read.

chinawhite, do you think the J-10 would have existed if there was no LAVI ?

And i see that the guy has no problem saying every piece of nonsense on the LCA's slow and painful development, without looking at the J-10.

The J-10 infact was plagued by even more sivere problems....heck there were crashes of a prototypes...FBW problems...and what not....and was marred by over 20+ years of painful plague like periods.

And all this despite the fact that it is essentially an alredy designed and built LAVI that is tweaked here and there with Russian help.



in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.

link


And the LAVI was Israel's attempt to build a plane that would match the F-16, but was cancelled because they were convinced that it could never do so (even if it did have some minor modifications). Heck the Israeli's spent 2 billion $ on this and then cancelled it, because it was just not good enough.

Now that raises serious doubts about the J-10 being able to "smoke" F-16's as chinawhite claims.

And chinawhite here are some links if you still believe that Israel had nothing to do with the J-10.



China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

It is reported that the J-10's radar and fire-control system is the Chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system




Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

link




In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"

link

And i wont be surprised if Israel themselves are responsible for the changes on the J-10 from the Lavi, considering the level of Israel-China defence co-operation in the 1990's and onwards (like sale of Harpy's, C4I technology, THEL, Phtyon 3&4 missile technology, etc)



even the links you posted stated that israel gave china some technology on the j-10 and not the aircraft design....

i have never denied that israel didn't give china tech but no creditble edvidence from any source has ever said israel sold china the LAVI designs or china was going to build a LAVI

[edit on 20-6-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by waynos
chinawhite, what on earth are you talking about? What the hell have the F-18 and MiG29 got in common


If you can't see the differences between the J-10, Lavi and F-16 maybe you should forget about planes and take up stamp collecting?

There is a superficial resemblance to each and both later types are clearly influenced by the design of the F-16 (GD even worked on the LAVI and IAI then helped with the J-10 so a link definitely exists) however the three aircraft are actually quite different in many key areas. I'm surprised you cannot see this as even the photos you posted show many differences.

Finally, Jack who?


the mig-29 and fa-18 have in common because their both twin engine twin fin stabliser one seat mid-weight . i ment same outside apperence in the features they have not from the look of them.



well omg i never said F-16 and LAVI didn't influnce the j-10 design I mentioned it many times. . it was a major influnce because china wanted a multi-role aircraft and they choose to build a chinese style F-16


as you mentioned the J-10 shares many features from the F-16 and LAVI but are very different aircraft in outter apperence.


but stealth spy is saying that j-10 is a copy of the LAVI.....


dont enter a converstaion with me and stealth if you dont know what we're arguing about......

[edit on 20-6-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 20-6-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 05:28 AM
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And the LAVI was Israel's attempt to build a plane that would match the F-16, but was cancelled because they were convinced that it could never do so (even if it did have some minor modifications). Heck the Israeli's spent 2 billion $ on this and then cancelled it, because it was just not good enough.

Now that raises serious doubts about the J-10 being able to "smoke" F-16's as chinawhite claims.

And chinawhite here are some links if you still believe that Israel had nothing to do with the J-10.


israel started building the LAVI because america wouldn't export the F-16 to israel. america funded 75-80% of the LAVI project. there was nothing wrong with the LAVI it was when the USA offered the F-16 at a much lower price that israel finially gave up....


I dont think you can read. you seem to think that i say that the J-10 had no israeli help..... i have never said that i said the J-10 is not a copy of the LAVI.

Theres is a language gap between us i think that you dont know the difference when i say its not a copy but with a israeli help. you and your language program think im saying israel didn't help..

Is it me or is my AUSTRALIAN educated english better than your indian educated english GET A NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION PROGRAM

jesus



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 06:03 AM
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according to globalsercurity Initial development of the J-10 began in October 1988

www.globalsecurity.org...

and you haven't posted a link to the source where you say that israel transfer the LAVI planes to america.. that is after the time of your article

if its from sinodefence they dont give Sources and globalsercruity does.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 06:05 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

There has been much speculation on the development of China's J-10 fighter. Many suggested the aircraft's design was based on the Lavi- the unsuccessful attempt by Israel to develop an indigenous F-16 fighter.


global secruity updated their j-10 page..

www.globalsecurity.org...


Preliminary designs for two new versions of the J-10 featuring single and twin engines and LO geometry were also completed.


new j-10s and j-10 hasn't even started mass production




[edit on 17-6-2005 by chinawhite]


wayos if you are talking about this.

this is about the J-10 not being a LAVI copy not about no israeli involment in the j-10. if this is the article that got you ticked off then please retract you post about me



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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chinawhite said dont enter a converstaion with me and stealth if you dont know what we're arguing about......


Well pardon me your Royal Highness but I have nothing to retract as my first post was just a general point and not aimed at you at all, I then replied to this, which YOU addressed to ME;



lol do you know jack..hahah it you lok at the mig-29 and f-18 horrent they also have the same outside apperence.


which was rude and, seeing as I was AGREEING that the J-10 is not a copy, unwarranted.

Do you have any manners at all?

And its an F-18 Hornet.

Don't you just hate annoying kids.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 12:06 PM
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Mmm....If the J10 is a modified Lavi.....And the Lavi is a modified F16......


So....If A = B and B = C, then A = C!!!! Just as I have been saying all this time.

China, Israel, Europe, others...You are all welcome!!! We are happy to share the F16 design with you. ENJOY!



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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Hey skytpic....what's with the Europe and others....


And chinawhite i am not sure if your "superior" education has worked as well.

for if you can still read i claimed long ago that j-10 is not an outright copy like some other chinese weaponry but is a modified lavi.

But again i wont fail to say that it is a modiifed LAVI and not an independant development.

and off topic : Chinawhite are you a chinese living in australia or an aussie citizen paranoid about china ?

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Hey skytpic....what's with the Europe and others....


And chinawhite i am not sure if your "superior" education has worked as well.

for if you can still read i claimed long ago that j-10 is not an outright copy like some other chinese weaponry but is a modified lavi.

But again i wont fail to say that it is a modiifed LAVI and not an independant development.

and off topic : Chinawhite are you a chinese living in australia or an aussie citizen paranoid about china ?

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]


let me refer to something you posted before.


Originally posted by Stealth Spy
quote: Originally posted by chinawhite

Here's what i found on the WS-10 :

quote:
The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the Russian AL-31FN.

www.sinodefence.com...

there is a difference between said and is
jesus its like you got a in-built dumb machine in your head.


GROW A BRAIN chinawhite. Get over your ignorance.

Why TF would sinodefence say that the WS-10 is a chinese copy. ??


you see your reading skills missed the bit where they said which is said not is

i lived 5 years in china and 10 in australia. born in china. i have a australian passport and in one year my chinese passport expires.



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by waynos

chinawhite said dont enter a converstaion with me and stealth if you dont know what we're arguing about......


Well pardon me your Royal Highness but I have nothing to retract as my first post was just a general point and not aimed at you at all, I then replied to this, which YOU addressed to ME;



lol do you know jack..hahah it you lok at the mig-29 and f-18 horrent they also have the same outside apperence.


which was rude and, seeing as I was AGREEING that the J-10 is not a copy, unwarranted.

Do you have any manners at all?

And its an F-18 Hornet.

Don't you just hate annoying kids.


ok



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Hey skytpic....what's with the Europe and others....


And chinawhite i am not sure if your "superior" education has worked as well.

for if you can still read i claimed long ago that j-10 is not an outright copy like some other chinese weaponry but is a modified lavi.

But again i wont fail to say that it is a modiifed LAVI and not an independant development.

and off topic : Chinawhite are you a chinese living in australia or an aussie citizen paranoid about china ?

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]


theres is no proof that israel ever gave china the designs for the LAVI.. I found a article accusing israel of sending the designs but was denied OFFICALLY



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 01:59 AM
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I'm actually surprised to see that j-10 have been given the name Lavi in StrategyPage

www.strategypage.com...

Juz admit its design is heavily influenced by F-16 and Lavi, there is no doubt

Oh BTW chinawhite take care of yourself in Australia as i recently heard that the Chinese Communists have 1000 spies there



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 02:36 AM
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Originally posted by NotheRaGe
I'm actually surprised to see that j-10 have been given the name Lavi in StrategyPage

www.strategypage.com...

Juz admit its design is heavily influenced by F-16 and Lavi, there is no doubt

Oh BTW chinawhite take care of yourself in Australia as i recently heard that the Chinese Communists have 1000 spies there


lol im chinese. my family lives in china.

1000 spies. lol some guy made that up so he can stay in australia

well if you look at how long stragerypage has not been updated you know what i mean



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 02:38 AM
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stragerypage also says this.


MiG-33 - Looks like the MiG-29, but built of different materials, uses a different engine and has a much improved set of avionics. Can carry 4.5 tons of bombs. Much more effective in ground attack than MiG-29. This project was an attempt to get something into the air to counter the US F-22. Unfortunately, no customers can be found yet. Much of the MiG-33 technology was sold to China, which is developing the J-9 (or FC-1) for itself and Pakistan.


its says that the mig-33 was made to challenge the f-22 while its tech ended up i a 3rd gen fighter which pakistan and israel is going to buy



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
theres is no proof that israel ever gave china the designs for the LAVI.. I found a article accusing israel of sending the designs but was denied OFFICALLY


Care to explain this :

Look at this official confession


David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

link

Take a look at this official report
the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare restated more strongly that technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia

link


And this too...




In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"


link

so much for deny ignorance ...




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