J-10 production in problems?, page 8
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reply posted on 20-6-2005 @ 12:20 AM by Stealth Spy
I agree waynos, i am now doubting if the guy can even read.

chinawhite, do you think the J-10 would have existed if there was no LAVI ?

And i see that the guy has no problem saying every piece of nonsense on the LCA's slow and painful development, without looking at the J-10.

The J-10 infact was plagued by even more sivere problems....heck there were crashes of a prototypes...FBW problems...and what not....and was marred by over 20+ years of painful plague like periods.

And all this despite the fact that it is essentially an alredy designed and built LAVI that is tweaked here and there with Russian help.


in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.

link


And the LAVI was Israel's attempt to build a plane that would match the F-16, but was cancelled because they were convinced that it could never do so (even if it did have some minor modifications). Heck the Israeli's spent 2 billion $ on this and then cancelled it, because it was just not good enough.

Now that raises serious doubts about the J-10 being able to "smoke" F-16's as chinawhite claims.

And chinawhite here are some links if you still believe that Israel had nothing to do with the J-10.


China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

It is reported that the J-10's radar and fire-control system is the Chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system



Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

link


David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

The J-10's radar and fire-control system is the chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock on to the four most threatening targets for destruction.

the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia

In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the J-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program".

link


In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"

link

And i wont be surprised if Israel themselves are responsible for the changes on the J-10 from the Lavi, considering the level of Israel-China defence co-operation in the 1990's and onwards (like sale of Harpy's, C4I technology, THEL, Phtyon 3&4 missile technology, etc)


reply posted on 20-6-2005 @ 01:46 AM by chinawhite
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I agree waynos, i am now doubting if the guy can even read.

chinawhite, do you think the J-10 would have existed if there was no LAVI ?

And i see that the guy has no problem saying every piece of nonsense on the LCA's slow and painful development, without looking at the J-10.

The J-10 infact was plagued by even more sivere problems....heck there were crashes of a prototypes...FBW problems...and what not....and was marred by over 20+ years of painful plague like periods.

And all this despite the fact that it is essentially an alredy designed and built LAVI that is tweaked here and there with Russian help.


in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.

link


And the LAVI was Israel's attempt to build a plane that would match the F-16, but was cancelled because they were convinced that it could never do so (even if it did have some minor modifications). Heck the Israeli's spent 2 billion $ on this and then cancelled it, because it was just not good enough.

Now that raises serious doubts about the J-10 being able to "smoke" F-16's as chinawhite claims.

And chinawhite here are some links if you still believe that Israel had nothing to do with the J-10.


China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

It is reported that the J-10's radar and fire-control system is the Chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system



Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

link



In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"

link

And i wont be surprised if Israel themselves are responsible for the changes on the J-10 from the Lavi, considering the level of Israel-China defence co-operation in the 1990's and onwards (like sale of Harpy's, C4I technology, THEL, Phtyon 3&4 missile technology, etc)



even the links you posted stated that israel gave china some technology on the j-10 and not the aircraft design....

i have never denied that israel didn't give china tech but no creditble edvidence from any source has ever said israel sold china the LAVI designs or china was going to build a LAVI

[edit on 20-6-2005 by chinawhite]


reply posted on 20-6-2005 @ 06:03 AM by chinawhite
according to globalsercurity Initial development of the J-10 began in October 1988

www.globalsecurity.org...

and you haven't posted a link to the source where you say that israel transfer the LAVI planes to america.. that is after the time of your article

if its from sinodefence they dont give Sources and globalsercruity does.


reply posted on 20-6-2005 @ 06:05 AM by chinawhite
Originally posted by chinawhite
There has been much speculation on the development of China's J-10 fighter. Many suggested the aircraft's design was based on the Lavi- the unsuccessful attempt by Israel to develop an indigenous F-16 fighter.


global secruity updated their j-10 page..

www.globalsecurity.org...

Preliminary designs for two new versions of the J-10 featuring single and twin engines and LO geometry were also completed.


new j-10s and j-10 hasn't even started mass production




[edit on 17-6-2005 by chinawhite]


wayos if you are talking about this.

this is about the J-10 not being a LAVI copy not about no israeli involment in the j-10. if this is the article that got you ticked off then please retract you post about me


reply posted on 21-6-2005 @ 01:59 AM by NotheRaGe
I'm actually surprised to see that j-10 have been given the name Lavi in StrategyPage

www.strategypage.com...

Juz admit its design is heavily influenced by F-16 and Lavi, there is no doubt

Oh BTW chinawhite take care of yourself in Australia as i recently heard that the Chinese Communists have 1000 spies there


reply posted on 21-6-2005 @ 02:36 AM by chinawhite
Originally posted by NotheRaGe
I'm actually surprised to see that j-10 have been given the name Lavi in StrategyPage

www.strategypage.com...

Juz admit its design is heavily influenced by F-16 and Lavi, there is no doubt

Oh BTW chinawhite take care of yourself in Australia as i recently heard that the Chinese Communists have 1000 spies there


lol im chinese. my family lives in china.

1000 spies. lol some guy made that up so he can stay in australia

well if you look at how long stragerypage has not been updated you know what i mean


reply posted on 21-6-2005 @ 03:45 AM by Stealth Spy
Originally posted by chinawhite
theres is no proof that israel ever gave china the designs for the LAVI.. I found a article accusing israel of sending the designs but was denied OFFICALLY


Care to explain this :

Look at this official confession

David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

link

Take a look at this official report
the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare restated more strongly that technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia

link


And this too...



In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"


link

so much for deny ignorance ...
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