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J-10 production in problems?

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posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 01:57 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

and chinawhite, the project 33 was undertaken by the Mikoyan and thus is referred to as the Mig-33 by some. But later since the Mig-33, a development of the Mig-29 came out, it was called the Mig-33izdee or R-33 or just project-33.

Anyway, names apart it is common knodwledge that the FC-1 is a development (or as a link says- an improved copy of the project-33).

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]


no the project-33 never reached more than a model. no metal mock up no electics no engine




posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy


Yes emile, it even got mention in today's Times of India. The WS-10A dose'nt seem to have gone too well. Infact the WS-10A has failed several times and caused the crash of a Su-27 and atleast one J-10 (possibly even 2) I'll find the links to this news right away.


The WS-10A didn't fail several times? when did it fail wind test?

they used russian engines in the J-10 that crashed. a Su-27 fitted with the WS-10A never crashed. one side was a russian engine the other with the WS-10A



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

and then it crashes when the WS-10 A fails:



and i hope you dont consider my post offensive




thats the funniest lie i ever seen. that aircarft was lost in a hurricane/bad weather. omg i cant believe you tried to pull this one off



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan


WS-10A is China's own take on the AL-31FN with TVC and improved thrust. Yes sinodefence is correct, its a based on the AL-31FN with modifications that is fit for the requirements of CCP and PLAAF. Your point is?



nope the WS-10A is a indegenious project. there is another engine project that got assitance from the russians.

i forgot the name but its very similar name. WF-10 or something like that. its in china-defense



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:17 AM
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WS-10A is obviously indeginous because its 100% made in China but is it a completely new engine designed from the bottom up? Chinawhite, you'd understand me because you know how China keeps everything underwraps and says nothing on everything, people could only guess until the governments says something which is usually a decade after something enters service.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3


P.S: For those who don't get it (maybe I don't too!!).. Waynoes is just being sarcastic.. to point out the flaws in chinawhite's LCA=M-2000 allegations??
Correct me if I'm wrong waynos..
Thats a French jet btw aye Waynos?? Mirage I or something? Where did the "guess the plan"e thread go anyways?!!


[edit on 12-7-2005 by Daedalus3]


cant you tell that im being sarcastic. its like saying the J-10 is based on the LAVi without any edvidence.

i was gving the mirage and LCA as a example because of the similar designs

also the LCA is 30% imported.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:24 AM
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After doing a little research, the crash picture was of a SU-30MKK crashed into a mountain during an exercise in April 2002. mil.jschina.com.cn... Here is the link, look under the SU-30MKK section.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan
WS-10A is obviously indeginous because its 100% made in China but is it a completely new engine designed from the bottom up? Chinawhite, you'd understand me because you know how China keeps everything underwraps and says nothing on everything, people could only guess until the governments says something which is usually a decade after something enters service.


the WS-10A project started in 1985. The WS-10a is supposed to have higer thrust than the AL-31F. 13,200kg compared to 12,500

www.china-defense.com...



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan
After doing a little research, the crash picture was of a SU-30MKK crashed into a mountain during an exercise in April 2002. mil.jschina.com.cn... Here is the link, look under the SU-30MKK section.


im not to sure but it was rumoured to be a SU-mmk2 in the taiwan media



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:34 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by chinawhite
paid the designers of the mirage to deisgn the LCA for you


Care to substantiate this flame-bait with links ?? (if any)




35 per cent was allocated towards payment for foreign avionics equipment and consultancy fees


www.indiadefence.com...



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:36 AM
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MK2s weren't delivered in until 2003-2004, how could a MK2 crash in April 2002?



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by waynos


Really? Stealth spy quoted my thoughts on this but just to put the cat among the pigeons I will throw in this photo without comment, just to see who runs with it



[edit on 12-7-2005 by waynos]


you can also say that the J-10 and LAVI both have similar layout. since both sides deny it.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan
MK2s weren't delivered in until 2003-2004, how could a MK2 crash in April 2002?


im not to sure but the taiwanese government claimed it was



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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Are you saying that the J-10 crashes due to engine failure (confirmed on one and speculated on the other) was due to the failure of the Russian Al-31 FN that it carried and not the WS-10A ??

and cowlan, why do you suppose that China bought the Russian engines for the J-10 instead of the WS-10A ??...was it because the WS-10A project which is said to be a copy of the Al-31FN is a failure or is excessively delayed ??
i mean clearly it implies that something not right has happende to the WS-10A..what are your views ?


and chinawhite, care to give sources to backup this claim of yours ??

Originally posted by chinawhite
paid the designers of the mirage to deisgn the LCA for you


and chinawhite are you trying to say that the Russian project-33 was no more than a model, and the designs that were sold to china for millions of $$ is nothing more than a crappy model ??



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Are you saying that the J-10 crashes due to engine failure (confirmed on one and speculated on the other) was due to the failure of the Russian Al-31 FN that it carried and not the WS-10A ??


they never comfired it was engine failure. it could have been engine or FBW system



and cowlan, why do you suppose that China bought the Russian engines for the J-10 instead of the WS-10A ??...was it because the WS-10A project which is said to be a copy of the Al-31FN is a failure or is excessively delayed ??
i mean clearly it implies that something not right has happende to the WS-10A..what are your views ?


the WS-10A has never been said to be used for the J-10. anyway when your building a engine in the WS-10A class you need a lot of testing and extra work to make sure the bugs have ben fully taken out. no other country in the region has built something close to the WS-10A



and chinawhite, care to give sources to backup this claim of yours ??

Originally posted by chinawhite
paid the designers of the mirage to deisgn the LCA for you


my explation is already written above



and chinawhite are you trying to say that the Russian project-33 was no more than a model, and the designs that were sold to china for millions of $$ is nothing more than a crappy model ??


yes that what i am saying. who said they designs were sold for millions



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 04:39 AM
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and since you guys wanna make a big deal about the slow development pace of the LCA & it has not entered service yet,etc, etc...... let me tell you that the J-10 project started in 1984 and now its 2005 and is still not in service yet despite the fact that it is mostly based on the proven Israeli LAVI !!!!!!

and i have'nt seen one chinese media source say that the J-10 was slow or anything about its torture like development or its crashes and the crash killing its chief test pilot and FBW/engine failures, or its non-use of the indegenous engine, etc (while you have no hesitaion in posting the innumerable articles in the Indian media about the LCA's engine's poor performance on its first test in a test bed or the LCA's slow development and what not)...... what do you suppose is the reason for this ??



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
they never comfired it was engine failure. it could have been engine or FBW system


well i accomodated that in my arguement; one was a confirmed engine failure while the other was either engine failure or FBW failure :





the WS-10A has never been said to be used for the J-10.

whooooaaaa...what did you say again ??

you yourself have said the WS-10A is for the J-10 (in addition the Su-27 ?)several times as like other chinese members...and is there any shortage of links saying that the WS-10A was meant for the J-10 (in addition the Su-27 ? ).


no other country in the region has built something close to the WS-10A


How about Russia-china's immediate neighbour...whose very engine is said to be copied to make the WS-10A by chinese sources ??

And is licence producing Su-30MKI enignes that is faaar more advanced than the WS-10A and has much more thrust than it.

And about the WS-10A, read this :

Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine WS-10A came up.
mil.jschina.com.cn...

The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN.

www.sinodefence.com...

and what is this thrust vectoring WS-10 that cowlan speaks of; the thrust vectored one is a Russian engine and is just speculation that it will power the J-10;


An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10

www.sinodefence.com...



and chinawhite are you trying to say that the Russian project-33 was no more than a model, and the designs that were sold to china for millions of $$ is nothing more than a crappy model ??


yes that what i am saying.


well i am not sure about the money but surely aircraft designs dont come cheap do they ???

and could you give me links to say that the project-33 was nothing more than a model.....this is riddiculous to hear(to say the least)...the Soviet project 33 the is is nothing more than a crappy model ????


I cant believe this...you say the R-33(project-33 / Mig-33 / Mig-35d) wich was the design on which the FC-1 is based (or an improved copy of it- according to a source) is nothing more than a model.....*shakes head*

why would china want to buy a model from Russia ?? ... over 90% of aircraft model kits are "made in china" are'nt they ??


It was one of the most worked on designs by Russia, but they did'nt have the money for it, so they sold it to China and you say it was a model


Read this :

The most developed concept was MiG izdeje 33. MiG does not have money to develop both MFI and LFI at stroke, so they dropped LFI and work continued only on MFI. Concept was later sold to China and it become FC-1fighter.

link


The aircraft is based off the design of the MiG-33 which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force.

link


As a substitute for the Super-7, China is developing the FC-1 (Fighter China 1) lightweight multipurpose fighter based on the design for the MiG-33, which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Company [CAIC], based in Sichuan Province, is China's second-largest fighter production base, and the enterprise is cooperating with Russia's Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group [MASPG] in the development of the FC-1.

But with the participation of MASPG, the Russians are using the FC-1 as a continuation of the MiG-33 [R33] program developed in the 1980s. With Russian technical assitance the redesigned FC-11 has improved climbout performance and steering capabilities along with a stronger fuselage. However, the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment to the added tail edgings, providing better aerial.


link



The development of this fighter, the improved copy of Soviet MIG-33 (which R&D was terminated due to absence of money at the beginning of 1990s), started at Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corp., in 1994-95.

More exactly, MIG-33 designers resumed this terminated project in Moscow under supervision of experts from Chengdu city and with financing from PLA. In 1995, Chengdu Corp. purchased 100 units advanced RD-93 jet engines, for the future FC-1, at Klimov Aircraft Corp. in St. Petersburg.

Despite all the efforts, the project dealt with a lot of problems, and only at the beginning of 2001 did it enter the last stage.




link

And let me also add that the FC-1 is powered by the RUSSIAN RD-93 ENGINE and not a chinese one.

So about the FC-1 : Its design is mostly from the Russian project-33 that China bought, its engine is Russian and about its other parts, look at seekerof's earlier post in the same thread :

Originally posted by Seekerof
Pakistan Air Force officials expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of Chinese avionics and radar systems
scroll down three-quarters of the page to The China Angle


[edit on 13-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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J-10 prototypes didn't have WS-10 or WS-10A engines, and CAC reported the crash to be of the need of more modifications to accomodate the heavier and bigger AL-31FN engines. If they didn't even have WS-10/A, how could it be WS-10/A's fault?

And to correct you, 1 or ONE J-10 prototype crashed not two.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan
And to correct you, 1 or ONE J-10 prototype crashed not two.



However, the first actual flight of the J-10 might have taken place two years earlier - in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences.

In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.


link

alright one is for sure and the other one in most probability too crashed.

I mean 99% of engine malfunctions on fighter jets, especially single engined jets cause a crash dont they ?

[edit on 13-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

well i accomodated that in my arguement; one was a confirmed engine failure while the other was either engine failure or FBW failure :


no-one can comfire this and you are posting this as edvidence.







whooooaaaa...what did you say again ??

you yourself have said the WS-10A is for the J-10 (in addition the Su-27 ?)several times as like other chinese members...and is there any shortage of links saying that the WS-10A was meant for the J-10 (in addition the Su-27 ? ).


the WS-10A is meant for a future fighter. read about it. it was rumoured for the J-10 but from the reports now it is not anymore.




How about Russia-china's immediate neighbour...whose very engine is said to be copied to make the WS-10A by chinese sources ??

And is licence producing Su-30MKI enignes that is faaar more advanced than the WS-10A and has much more thrust than it.


lol the indian MKI uses the AL-31F with TV. it has 12,500kg thrust whilst the WS-10A has 13,200kg thrust. please do your research before you come out with BS like this




and what is this thrust vectoring WS-10 that cowlan speaks of; the thrust vectored one is a Russian engine and is just speculation that it will power the J-10;


no thats not the article




well i am not sure about the money but surely aircraft designs dont come cheap do they ???

and could you give me links to say that the project-33 was nothing more than a model.....this is riddiculous to hear(to say the least)...the Soviet project 33 the is is nothing more than a crappy model ????


I cant believe this...you say the R-33(project-33 / Mig-33 / Mig-35d) wich was the design on which the FC-1 is based (or an improved copy of it- according to a source) is nothing more than a model.....*shakes head*

why would china want to buy a model from Russia ?? ... over 90% of aircraft model kits are "made in china" are'nt they ??


It was one of the most worked on designs by Russia, but they did'nt have the money for it, so they sold it to China and you say it was a model


Its offical stealth spy gets information from own source. himself

are you trying to make a fool of yourself



Do you know what the MFI is???????????????????????

its the MIG-1.42/1.44. the mig-33 is a advanced model of the mig-29. the project 35 is also known as the MFI. the project 33 was given a unoffical name of mig-35d but like i said its unoffical

the project 33 is a single seat single engine light fighter that was meant to be the F-16s russian counter-part. never left the modelling stage.


www.globalsecurity.org...


the FC-1 is low cost single engine. with lateral side air intakes



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