J-10 production in problems?

I don't know what to say stealth spy , FAS hasn't been updated for 5 years on the Chinese part. Your quote says FC-11. And your quote says FC-1 is a MIG-21. So your post is basically self defeating.

Congrats, you have achieved embarrassment

[edit on 12-7-2005 by COWlan]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
chinawhite, i dont mean any offence, but the FC-1 is a chinese development of the soviet Mig-33 izdee; this is different from the Mig-33 that was a development of the Mig-29; the izdee is sometimes referred to as the Mig-35 by some but it is widely called the Mig-33 and the pic (black & white that you have posted is of this Russian Mig-33izdee that the FC-1 improves on. China took this Russian R&D design in 1992, when Russia were so poor that they would sell anything.

no they didn't i have posted edvidence stating that.

the mig-33 is a upgrade of the mig-29 while project 33 was the picture i posted also known as mig-35d. i did my research on this

when look look at the sources of FAS it states 1995 from one source and it hasn't been updated since 1999. while the other article you posted is dated 2002.

here is globalsercruitys views. recently updated in 2005

It is widely reported that the FC-1 is a continuation of the "MiG-33 [R33]" program developed in the 1980s. The Russian company Mikoyan OKB Design Bureau, which designs all MIG series of aircraft, sold the design of MIG-33 to the China and Pakistan. This report is the source of considerable confusion, and indeed some rather fanciful speculation. The so-called MiG-33 design used in conjunction with the FC-1 program was apparently a the poorly attested "Product 33" lightweight single-engine project of the mid-1980s. A decade later, the MiG-33 nomenclature was briefly associated with the much larger twin-engine Mig-29M. This confused history has led to observations that the "FC-1 features air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33. ... the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment..." These supposed modifications to the mid-90s MiG-33 design actually reflect the fact that the FC-1 is an entirely difference airplane with no design relationship to the MiG-33 [MiG-29M].

and your first link also says what i said.

note: the original FC-1 concept was actually based on the Super-7, the Project 33 from MiG, not to be confused with MiG-33, an ungrade of the baseline MiG-29, has some influences on the FC-1, but by no means is the FC-1 actually based on Project 33.

I've got a news that reported China has concluded a contract to order AF-31 turbo engine which will be used in J-10 value 300million dollars
I think that means J-10 will enter large quantities of produce.
Only Su-27 （J-11）do not worth so many engine.
maybe there is another reason?

Indeed possible.

I am in need of new articles because I'm in China right now and Wforum is in the block list including WAFF.

Originally posted by COWlan
I don't know what to say stealth spy , FAS hasn't been updated for 5 years on the Chinese part. Your quote says FC-11. And your quote says FC-1 is a MIG-21. So your post is basically self defeating.

Congrats, you have achieved embarrassment

Cowlan, i dont intend any offence but the sinodefence site, before it was updated a few months also said that the the FC-1 is based on the Mig-33 concept which inturn is derrived from a heavily modified Mig-21 airframe.

and so what if FAS has'nt been upgraded for 5 years, the FC-1's roots from the Soviet Mig-33 is common knodwledge. Maybe FAS wont give you the latest info, but it sure tells you about the roots of the FC-1 as the FC-1 project was started in the early 90's.

and chinawhite, the project 33 was undertaken by the Mikoyan and thus is referred to as the Mig-33 by some. But later since the Mig-33, a development of the Mig-29 came out, it was called the Mig-33izdee or R-33 or just project-33.

Anyway, names apart it is common knodwledge that the FC-1 is a development (or as a link says- an improved copy of the project-33).

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by emile
I've got a news that reported China has concluded a contract to order AF-31 turbo engine which will be used in J-10 value 300million dollars
I think that means J-10 will enter large quantities of produce.
Only Su-27 （J-11）do not worth so many engine.
maybe there is another reason?

Yes emile, it even got mention in today's Times of India. The WS-10A dose'nt seem to have gone too well. Infact the WS-10A has failed several times and caused the crash of a Su-27 and atleast one J-10 (possibly even 2) I'll find the links to this news right away.

So I guess the other two quotes were not useful in proving your point as one names FC-1 as FC-11 and the other one said FC-1 was a MIG-21 variant?

We have found many other quotes from including the most reliable military site on the internet www.globalsecurity.org What do you say to that? Is globalsecurity false or are your less reliable sites false?

I don't know which Sinodefence you've read but this one www.sinodefence.com... certainly doesn't state any connection of FC-1 to MIG-33.

[edit on 12-7-2005 by COWlan]

Originally posted by chinawhite
paid the designers of the mirage to deisgn the LCA for you

Care to substantiate this flame-bait with links ?? (if any)

Stealthspy, dude, care to give some links? Indian times? Just for you to know, I have no idea how 2 J-10s crashed because of WS-10A engine failures because J-10s currently use AL-31F engines so your memory just proved you false.

I read the news on Chinese military everyday, SU-27s use AL-31F engines so I proved you wrong again. J-11s use AL-31F engines so thats not a possibility, WS-10A completed its lab trials and the J-11 trials successfully without any hiccups. The hiccups were at the designing stage before the trials. One J-11 was modified with one AL-31F and one WS-10 engine for the WS-10 flight test and it has gone smooth and finished some time ago. WS-10A with TVC and improved thrust will go under tests too soon. 30000 pounds of thrust with 3D TVC, everything down to the bottom made in China unlike the Kaveri (the one with the real hiccups just like how it took DRDO 3.5 years to design nada in the late 90s for the MKI, yeah I read pretty much all there is on the net about the MKIs).

[edit on 12-7-2005 by COWlan]

[edit on 12-7-2005 by COWlan]

I dont mean any offence, cowlan but here are some links; true the Kaveri's development was a pain and the Indian media have made a mockery of it; but fortunately its all fixed and has passed all tests. Besides criticism of the Kaveri defeats the very purpose of tests; India's first engine failed a test to find out weather it worked or not and it failed the test and the data was used to fix it and then it passes the test..is that a big deal ??

The WS-10A is said to be a copy of the Russian Al-31 FN and this is acknowledged by Chinese sources too :

The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN.

chinese link



and on the J-10's crashes :

The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous.

The first prototype was set to fly between 1995-96, powered by a newly designed WS-10 turbofan. However the development of this indigenous engine suffered some serious difficulties and thus the rear fuselage and engine intake were forced to be redesigned in order to accommodate an alternative AL-31FN engine imported from Russia. As the result, the first prototype (01) made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998, two years behind the schedule. The project suffered another setback between 1998-99 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, caused by certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine.

and this :

The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous.

The prototype was rumored to have first flown in 1996, but the project suffered a serious setback in late 1997 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, as the result of certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine.

link

At the end of 1995 Russian involvement in the J-10 program was confirmed when it was announced that a first J-10 flight is expected in early 1996 with Russian-made Al-31FN turbofan engine. Runway tests took longer than expected while the designers tweaked the control systems of the first J-10 "1001" prototype. The first "official" flight took place on March 28, 1998, and was largely successful. However, the first actual flight of the J-10 might have taken place two years earlier - in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot

link

and talk of the LCA's slow development...atleast there were no crashes like the J-10 which is mostly based on the alredy tested Lavi..too bad there are not criticising articles in China's state controlled media like in the Indian media about the solw pace of the LCA development.


and the Su-27 crash with the WS-10 A

here flying with the WS-10A :



and then it crashes when the WS-10 A fails:



and i hope you dont consider my post offensive

and cowlan proved me wrong, eh ?..here is the Engine deal :

check out these :
www.mosnews.com...
www.themoscowtimes.com...
canadaeast.com.../20050712/TPMONEY09/207120340/-1/MONEY
www.kommersant.com...

and this is today's latest red hot news;

The articles also clearly mentions that these hundred Russian are for the J-10.

and its russian engines that the J-10 will use & not its copy.



and i noticed that you said that you are in china right now and some site you wanted to acess was blocked (like the millions of sites blocked by the govt. in china), so i doubt you'll be able to view my links.

BTW just out of curiosity: Is google allowed in china ?? and is ATS allowed and which are the Indian sites that are blocked ??

and since you said you've read all about the MKI, here's another comprehensive & great read : link

and hopefully this site is not blocked

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by chinawhite
this is a copy



external image

Really? Stealth spy quoted my thoughts on this but just to put the cat among the pigeons I will throw in this photo without comment, just to see who runs with it


[edit on 12-7-2005 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
Really? Stealth spy quoted my thoughts on this but just to put the cat among the pigeons I will throw in this photo without comment, just to see who runs with it

Which plane is that ? and surely it was'nt a part of the Indian Air Force or was it ? to the best of my knodwledge it was'nt

And when do you suppose the India ever got its hands on that thing ??

and could i have a more frontal view of the very airplane

no offence...but this post of yours rivals centurion's claim that the LCA is a copy of the 1950s vintage F-102 Delta Dart
www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1230695

F-102




what will i hear next -- LCA is a copy the Rafale ?

external image


[edit on 12-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

ohhh. . thats nasty!!



Any info by the chinese news agencies on how it happened?
Anyways.. reporting the crash of a chinese jet by ANY news gancy in china is a major surprise.. I don't think its ever happened before!!
Any date on the above incident?


P.S: For those who don't get it (maybe I don't too!!).. Waynoes is just being sarcastic.. to point out the flaws in chinawhite's LCA=M-2000 allegations??
Correct me if I'm wrong waynos..
Thats a French jet btw aye Waynos?? Mirage I or something? Where did the "guess the plan"e thread go anyways?!!

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Daedalus3]

No, its not Indian. Here it is from a more frontal aspect.

I present only as evidence of the stupidity of alleging 'copy' as this is more like Tejas in layout than anything else flying, and yet it is nothing at all to do with it. I present the 1954 Fairey FD.2, the first aircraft to hold the world air speed record at more than 1,000mph, in case anyone was wondering



And yes, Daedalus was spot on

[edit on 12-7-2005 by waynos]

looks cool;
was is French or English ;
you can hardly tell from the markings when pics in black and white
my best is it was English from its name

It was British, also Marcel Dassault, who invented the Mirage, once commented that he was inspired by seeing the FD 2 on test in France and said "You English could have made the Mirage if only you did things differently" which was quite true, the fact that the FD2 never became a fighter was hugely frustrating to Fairey who had envisaged exactly the type of fighter that the Mirage later became.

Alas I have taken the thread off topic, ignore me.

can anyone acquianted with chinese give me an accurate and unbiased translation of the contents of this image ??

image

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]

I thought you were talking about WS-10 test on the SU-27 that made it crash, nope, it didn't crash and it completed tests fully without hiccups. J-10 had hiccups, everyone knew that so your point is?

WS-10A is China's own take on the AL-31FN with TVC and improved thrust. Yes sinodefence is correct, its a based on the AL-31FN with modifications that is fit for the requirements of CCP and PLAAF. Your point is?

The crash on the 02 J-10 prototype 7 years ago wasn't because of the engines but because of the need of modifications in order to accomodate the larger AL-31FN engines than the original intended American engines.

The series of pictures and the crash pictures are of no relation at all. The series of 5 pictures is for the test which I spoke of on the J-11 with one AL-31F engine and one WS-10 engine. The crash picture was of the change in doctrine a year ago that made significant addition in flight hours to PLAAF pilots and made them do difficult manoveurs which produced a SU-30MKK crash. No relation.

I proved you wrong when you said WS-10A caused 2 J-10s to crash and a J-11 to crash which is indeed false. J-11s use AL-31F engines and same does the J-10 engines. J-10 prototypes used AL-31FN engines. No WS-10/A on this at all.

Yes, China is acquiring 100 AL-31F or FN engines, I'm not sure of which. Your point is? What I hear is that early SU-27SK fighter engines are near the end of their life expectancy and are in need of replace ment so 100 AL-31F/FNs are ordered to replace the initial few batches in this year and next year.

The picture in the link StealthSpy provided was a description of the Israeli Lavi fighter, not a very good description or a very clear one. you can't see the words on the page and you can see the descriptions aren't very long.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by COWlan]