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Totalitarian America: An Open Question

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posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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Ever since man has deemed himself worthy to rule over his fellow man, power has ebbed and flowed between nations and leaders. Often growing from humble beginnings and spreading forth like a rabid beast, infecting those it carresses and destroying the lands that fall beneath it's shadow. Power is the great corrupter, whether it take the form of money, firepower or religious indoctrination, there are few who would not prostrate themselves before it's awesome temptation.

However, those of us fortunate enough to have lived our lives in the United States have enjoyed relative peace and prosperity. The last memories of domestic military struggle died generations ago, the last living memories of the Great Depression will soon follow. Those of us alive today live our lives in the pseudo-secure notion that in the mexican standoff known as Earth, we have the biggest gun. And well we should, all things conisdered, we have very little to worry about. Granted there are the usual pains of feeding and housing our families, the ever present fear of un-employment, and sickness that modern science has yet to cure.

When taken in context with the known history of past empires we feel we have little to be concerned over. There are no domestic insurgencies, the military is still restricted by state and federal law to much of an extent and our civil liberities seem forged forever by the rightous flame of Democracy never to be quenched by the cooling waters of totalitarian oppression. Make no mistake, America, as we now know it, is an empire. Perhaps not in the sense as many on this board would have us believe. In the race for imperialistic domination of "lesser" lands we have fallen quite short of the Roman example.

The United States is now the most powerful country currently in existence, due in part to our size, abundance of resources and our military might. We are the Rome of the 21st century, though I fear we are past the Pax Americana. Here in lies the basis for my questions, which are open to all regardless of nationality, race or creed.

I will attempt to make this as logical a line of questioning as possible. For every dark there must be light with which to compare and any question on the inevitable downfall of a current Empire must include the same. The Pax Americana could arguably be described as America's golden period, the time at which America as a nation was at it's absolute peak. Given that explanation, here is the first question:

1. What era would you believe to be the Pax Americana?

i.e."The 1950s was America's golden period, after which the decline had begun" Please extrapolate as much as possible in your responses

Given our statement about the necessity for comparison and your response to the first question the next question inevitably arises:

2.Do you believe we are currently in the parabolic down swing of America as a culture, nation, and world power? If so, why?

For example "I believe we are currently in the decline of the American Civilization because of our dependance on foreign oil and our trade defecit"

I wish to digress slightly, using your response to the previous questions as a foundation. As Americans we are lulled into a false sense of security, the pervasive notion seems to be that what happened to powerful nations like Russia and Germany could never happen here. We are strangers to hunger and poverty, opression is a dirty word and we are told our freedoms stem from a divine love for us as a nation. However, many of us may not wish to agree, but we are no better than the populus of previously fallen empires. Our rulers are no more righetous than those of the iron curtain, our liberties are no more inherant than a communist serf. It is my opinion that the sole reason for our liberties and freedoms stems from our unwavering ambition and the belief that "God is on our side". We are free because we made ourselves free. We were not given these rights, we took them with force. There is no devine power watching over our right to speak freely, to vote freely, and to live our lives as we see fit, we are the sole guardians of our freedoms. Sadly I feel many Americans have grown lazy and complacent, we think our government seeks to secure all that we hold so dear. We believe that if ever that fateful day should come when the barbarians breech the battlements of Democracy our leaders will be there in glistening armor sounding the final turmpet heralding the new age of freedom and victory over the savage masses. I feel I am not alone in stating, I find that quite hard to believe.

Having said that, I'd like to proceed with the questioning:

3. Ignoring what you have been told by the media, and what you have read on sites such as this, based solely on your personal experience and personal opinions do you believe America could degrade into a cesspool remeniscent of Orwell or the Soviet regime? Could we find ourselves living in fear of a seceret police, prison camps of unkown location, the death of all our freedoms, kidnappings in the middle of the night and politically motivated murders?

I know the political affiliations of many on this board and would like to put forth the caveat that your answer be un-biased and based solely on your personal observations. (granted personal opinions are biased but I'd like to hear an original statement, not the parroting back of politcal doctrine, whatever name it may take)

4. What would be the root cause of the downfall of the American nation as a world power?

It is arguable that the major catalyst to the downfall of the Soviet Union was it's on going cold war with the United States which drove it in to bankruptcy, poverty, and eventual destruction. This question queries as to your opinion in regards to the end of the Pax Americana and the eventual degredation into totalitarian opression.

5. In your opinion, how long do you believe it would take America to grow from what it is now into the dystopian future proposed previously?

6.Do you believe it would be a gradual change, taking place over generations in order to be conducive to re-education and indoctrination of the youth as to the workings of the new totaliterian state? Or do you believe it will happen in leaps and bounds, a politically darwinian de-evolution at unforeseen historical nodal points in which our leaders see fit to take the next step towards total control?

7. What liberties and freedoms would be the first to go. In what aspects of our life as American citizens would we see the first changes?

In the interest of time I shall end my line of questioning with this:

8. Do you believe that the negating of our rights and the drastic downturn of our quality of life woulld be enough to stir the restless masses to revolution? Do you believe that the American populous would rise up against it's opressors as it has in the past or would it be too little too late and the revolution would be put to rest?

9. If yes, what would be the outcome of a second American Revolution? Would the map be redrawn? Would the name be changed etc?

10.What form of government would the New America adopt? What countries would it ally with?

These questions are more hypothetical than anything. the ultiamte reason for this post was that I wished to have a logical, intelligent discussion on the posibility of America as a Totalitarian state without political motivations behind the responses. Please set your feelings on America aside regardless of which way they might swing when you respond. I'm interested to find out what people think of the idea of Totalitarian America within a historical context, given what we know of the evolution of totalitarian regimes and applying it to the present day United States. Thank you for taking the time to read this post.




posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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It's happening right now.

What do you think all this manufactured furor about "activist judges" and "black robed tyrants" is all about?

The judiciary is the one branch of government the Dominionists and their allies do not yet control. Taking down the judiciary, the only roadblock remaining in their quest to seek permanent control of the US, is the natural next step. With a defanged judiciary, the Christian Right will be able to pass any legislation they want, regardless of pesky technicalities like the Constitution.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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1. Before WW1- just ask Lazarus Long

2. Yes, World Opinion is strongly against us. Just recently back from India-Europe-VietNam- and Cambodia. Don't take my word for it, just book a flight and tell me what YOU think. They absolutely hate us. ABSOLUTELY!
3. You can be arrested right now, your property taken, your right to legal counsel, at the whim of the police state . Probably cause my behind.
4. The election of GWB and the rise of power of the neocons
5. 3 more years
6. Patriot act 1 and 2 took amendment 1 and 4. Red level alert will be able to take away all of your rights, and more executive orders without Congress to stop them will soon come to pass
7. even the iraqi's can assemble, the us has already lost it's ability to protest effectively- the press doesn't print depressing news about our lost rights and liberties(it's bad for business for the advertisers) Look forward to losing your property- they can take it at the drop of a hat now anyways.
8. no- masses are too complacent-
9. Jesusland
10. anarchy



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
1. What era would you believe to be the Pax Americana?


I believe the US has had 2 golden ages. These would be from just after WWII up into the late 60's and from the 1980's-present. The reason I say this is simple. At the end of WWII, the US was the sole nuclear power, and had it's home land untouched by the carnage of WWII. Every other major power (Russia, China, the UK, France, Germany etc) had been raveged, and had most of their industrial base destroyed. The US had all of it's infrastructure, was the sole nuclear power, and had the most powerfull conventional military in the world. This power was rivaled through the 60's by Russia, but never equaled. The US had a vast technological lead, which culminated with our trip to the moon - which has still yet to be repeated by any other country. It ended with the political and moral defeat of the US in Vietnam and with the failed attempt to keep Cuba free.

At this point Russia was top dog. America had become "depressed" in a sense. People believed we were losing, and in fact - we were.

Then Reagan came to office. He restored this nations moral, and contributed to the downfall of the USSR by building up our military to the juggernaught that it is to day. He was responsable for our current vast technological lead - especially in the military sector - over the rest of the world.

Today I believe the US is peaking.





2.Do you believe we are currently in the parabolic down swing of America as a culture, nation, and world power? If so, why?


No. Like I said I believe we are currently still peaking. I believe that we will continue to peak for about 20 years. After this point, I DO NOT think the US will hit a down swing. Rather, I believe the rest of the world will catch up. China will become a true rival in both it's economy and military - though they will continue to be a step behind just because of the HUGE investment the US has already made in military technology. Basically, it will not so much be the US falling, but rather nations like China, India, Russia, Brazil, and the economic allies in the EU combining to rival the US.




3. Ignoring what you have been told by the media, and what you have read on sites such as this, based solely on your personal experience and personal opinions do you believe America could degrade into a cesspool remeniscent of Orwell or the Soviet regime? Could we find ourselves living in fear of a seceret police, prison camps of unkown location, the death of all our freedoms, kidnappings in the middle of the night and politically motivated murders?


COULD we? Of course we could. THe question is, is it likely? I say no. It is a possability, but not a probability in the near and midteerm future. We have things built into our system of government that help prevent this, such as the 2nd amendment. I also believe our current culture prevents it. Can you honestly say that a large enough part of the US population could be rallied to follow this? I don't. Just look around at this board - every little political thing is scrutinized to the fullest. How would they convince even 10% of the population to go along with such a thing.



4. What would be the root cause of the downfall of the American nation as a world power?


Clearly the economy. The US economy is what allows the US to have the best military, and to have so much power. Give us a "normal" economy and we are a "normal" country. Granted we would have a technological lead, but that would most likely be cut down in short manner.



5. In your opinion, how long do you believe it would take America to grow from what it is now into the dystopian future proposed previously?


How long? Who knows? It may never do that in 1000 years, or conversly an hour from now a nuke goes off in every major US city in which case marshall law would probably be needed.




6.Do you believe it would be a gradual change, taking place over generations in order to be conducive to re-education and indoctrination of the youth as to the workings of the new totaliterian state? Or do you believe it will happen in leaps and bounds, a politically darwinian de-evolution at unforeseen historical nodal points in which our leaders see fit to take the next step towards total control?


I think it would have to happen over night with drastic events. There are lines in the US that just can't be crossed. Death camps and such would never be allowed because our childrens largest teacher is still their parents. As long as that stays the same, and the parents have the current basic values (which they would because of their own parents having been their main influence) I don't think there is any way that restrictions such as a nationwide curfew, much less death camps, could be implimented.



7. What liberties and freedoms would be the first to go. In what aspects of our life as American citizens would we see the first changes?


I think CLEARLY if you are trying to control the masses, the very first thing that you need to get rid of is their own ability to defend themselves and fight back. Thus, the 2nd amendment would be the first to go in a "gradual" takeover. Just look at history - thats what every evil dictators first main objective has been.




8. Do you believe that the negating of our rights and the drastic downturn of our quality of life woulld be enough to stir the restless masses to revolution? Do you believe that the American populous would rise up against it's opressors as it has in the past or would it be too little too late and the revolution would be put to rest?

9. If yes, what would be the outcome of a second American Revolution? Would the map be redrawn? Would the name be changed etc?


Yes, there would definatly be a revolution. And it would work because the US military would not go to war against it's own people. I just can't see a single one of the people I know in the military fighting for death camps. If those in power loose the military, they are done.

The map might change to reflect some differences. For instance, I could see Texas and maybe Arizona becoming a seperate state, with the southeast joining together, the north east with it's more liberal mentality would probably join together. California would probably go off on it's own, etc.



10.What form of government would the New America adopt? What countries would it ally with?


I think that the new America would become MUCH more of aRepublic, with states rights clearly defined as greater then federal ones. I think that the countries that came out of the revolution (Cali, Texas, the NE etc) would be the biggest allies, but be clearly seperate of each other. I would imagine that Europe would still contain most of our best overseas allies.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by accountability
1. Before WW1- just ask Lazarus Long

2. Yes, World Opinion is strongly against us. Just recently back from India-Europe-VietNam- and Cambodia. Don't take my word for it, just book a flight and tell me what YOU think. They absolutely hate us. ABSOLUTELY!
3. You can be arrested right now, your property taken, your right to legal counsel, at the whim of the police state . Probably cause my behind.
4. The election of GWB and the rise of power of the neocons
5. 3 more years
6. Patriot act 1 and 2 took amendment 1 and 4. Red level alert will be able to take away all of your rights, and more executive orders without Congress to stop them will soon come to pass
7. even the iraqi's can assemble, the us has already lost it's ability to protest effectively- the press doesn't print depressing news about our lost rights and liberties(it's bad for business for the advertisers) Look forward to losing your property- they can take it at the drop of a hat now anyways.
8. no- masses are too complacent-
9. Jesusland
10. anarchy


Way to keep your politics out of this


Hey micheal Moore, is that you?



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 12:29 AM
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Not to ignore your other very good questions, but I find number 4 very interesting:

4. What would be the root cause of the downfall of the American nation as a world power?

I think the biggest mistake that America has made is that it has given corporations too much power. Like you said, America is the modern day Rome, but it is not the U.S. military or politicians who are the legions and governors of their foreign holdings - it is the corporations.

Driven only by capital, they serve no altruistic purpose and are only out to profit. Taking advantage of desperate people in poor countries much like the Romans did. Eventually though, the people rose up and stopped paying the Romans tribute and their economy crashed. Then there were barbarian attacks and internal division. I see the corporations in the U.S. doing the same thing in America (and the west in general) today.

The corporations have already undermined democracy big time. When politicians want to pass legislation, who do they confer with? The corporations and big business. When corporations are allowed to vote with their dollars, then totalitarianism is definitely a danger. We did not vote them, and they have so much power - it's not democracy. If it's not democracy, then is it America?

The sad thing is that none of us chose them to represent us, and yet it is because of their ways that there is growing anger towards the west today.
I feel that eventually it will be this that compromises America's power. They will give too much of it up to corporations who only care about the bottom line.


[edit on 14-4-2005 by Hajduk]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:07 AM
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nm

[edit on 14-4-2005 by Hajduk]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 04:06 AM
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Just to answer your first question, PAX means peace, so for there to be Pax Americana, then there can be no war, in essence. Therefore I would suggest that there has never been a Pax Americana as and era should probably last more than 10 years. I am unsure if I could think of a time perios over 10 years that the U.S. was not involved in a war.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by jawapunk
Just to answer your first question, PAX means peace, so for there to be Pax Americana, then there can be no war, in essence. Therefore I would suggest that there has never been a Pax Americana as and era should probably last more than 10 years. I am unsure if I could think of a time perios over 10 years that the U.S. was not involved in a war.



How about the civil war through WWI?



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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No, there was the Spanish American War then, and numerous US "interventions" in Central and South America.

The most peaceful time the US has had is probably the gap between the War of 1812 and the Civil War.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by xmotex
No, there was the Spanish American War then, and numerous US "interventions" in Central and South America.



True, though I would not count "interventions" as non peace. After all, if we are to do that, there hasn't been a day in history that was peacefull.



The most peaceful time the US has had is probably the gap between the War of 1812 and the Civil War.


There was the Mexican-American war in 1846-1848. So that would be 31 years of peace between the War of 1812 and the M/A war.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 10:45 AM
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Yeah you are right.
So the longest we've been at peace during the whole of our history.
31 years.
How depressing.


cjf

posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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I would take the term in question-- 'Pax Americana' to resemble the estalished ideals such as found Pax Romana and Pax Britannia aluring to mean a period or sub-periods of implied peace not periods of absolte peace void of any and all conflict internal or external.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
Yeah you are right.
So the longest we've been at peace during the whole of our history.
31 years.
How depressing.


Actually, compare that to most European countries and we come away as saints.

Also, one must take into account some of the circumstances. We got involved in both WW's after ourselves being attacked and threatened.

In WWI, the Lusitania was sunk by Germany. That, along with the Zimmerman telegram forced our involvement.

In WWII, there was Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on us in turn.

Then there was the Korean war, where the North attacked the free south, and the UN mandated that the allies (led by the US) intervene.

If one considers these "reactionary", then we actually grade out as a very unagressive nation, having gone over half a century without starting a war.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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1. Probably the 80's up until recently. After a rather depressing ordeal in Vietnam, the people's faith in America was restored through the Reagan administration and the government was fixed up such that America was able to survive Clinton's presidency. The world was not entirely peaceful but America really stood out as the world's superpower, and within our borders there has been much prosperity.

2. I wouldn't say we are on a downswing. Rather, I will say that we are on the verge of a massive event that will be the great test of this generation. The apparent upswing of international terrorism is tempting our government to play in forbidden territory, and this nation will once again be divided -- there will be those who want the government to take care of their safety and those who are willing to take a few bombings as the price for liberty. Depending on which side wins in the coming struggle (if it happens soon it does not need to be violent), America will face more prosperity or collapse.

3. I think it's entirely possible that some totalitarian element could take over. In fact, it's been slowly taking over for nearly 150 years.
- Central government has enlarged, the law has complexified and moved beyond the comprehension of most laymen and into the elite caste known as "lawyers". You can't just buy an automatic weapon anymore, and a few states have even more strict and unconstitutional restrictions on personal armament (see California and Illinois, and LA and Chicago in particular).
-The police have become more militarized, take a look at the usage of dynamic entry tactics over the past 10 years. Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge?
- Look at the oxymoronic concept of "free speech zones" in places like schools and places where the government expects people to protest.
- Look at the Department of Homeland Security -- just because may have been made for a benign purpose and is being used responsibly so far does not entirely discount the fact that organizations like the Gestapo were also for 'homeland security'. Just because everything is fine now does not mean things will continue to be fine if someone like Janet Reno were to become Homeland Security Secretary.

Whether this infrastructure falls into the hands of socialists or religious types remains to be seen, but there is no way this infrastructure will safely be able to expand indefinitely.

4. The root cause of the downfall would be the tension between liberty and safety, as to which is more important to have. The trigger would be some kind of calamity that tempts the government to do something stupid, like--
- go door to door seizing all of a particular class of firearms in the aftermath of a tragic shooting.
- crank up security procedures in all airports and public buildings after a hijacking or a suicide bombing.
- Imprison suspected terrorists (and anyone who merely hates the current administration enough to say threatening things)
Whatever the exact events are, the government would do something characteristic of a police state and subsequent political backlash would cause the downfall of the nation.

5. Despite what some people think of the Dubya administration, I don't think it will happen in his time, so at least 4-5 years from now. However, Bush may end up strengthening the DHS such that it can be more thoroughly misused by his successor. I say 4 years because it is my perception that a dislike of Bush will lead to putting someone in the opposition party in charge, and end up putting someone less libertarian than Bush in charge, not more.

6. I believe it would start with a gradual process that would take our nation about halfway to totalitarianism, because that part has already happened. At some point the rest would be sudden. Our public school system has contributed greatly to the advancement of totalitarianism.
- The basic concept of public education is a socialist concept.
- Parents are pressured by their children into buying expensive clothes and things so that the kids can fit in with those of higher socioeconomic classes, at the expense of reducing savings that might go towards something more lasting. Thus, probability is higher that the next generation will be just as poor as the previous, and look to the government for help.
- Teachers' unions (as many unions do) tend to lean to the left and so it is probable that the teachers will be either overtly or subversively be impregnating the children with socialist ideas, most likely the idea that everyone has a right to a free education, from which other imaginary rights might be inferred.
Anyway, at some point, enough old people will have died so that the current incarnation of public schooling will have molded the psyches of the majority of the population, and then democracy will let the rest happen quickly.

7. It's difficult to say what will go first, as a number of freedoms have already been partially taken. Most likely, several freedoms would be taken simultaneously, bit by bit, and thus nobody would be upset for a while until the government made a mistake, and I can't say which liberty would be infringed. Most likely either the right to free speech or the right to be armed.

8. A revolution. If the last stages of progressing to totalitarianism are as quick as I think they will be, it is almost certain that the people will be sufficiently agitated that they will rise up and attempt to overthrow the current incarnation of the government. Success is another matter, and I think what will determine that is whether a significant portion of the military would join the rebellion, which I think is possible if the makeup of the armed forces doesn't change too much. In addition, the nature of the two sides means that one side will be willing to fight to the death, and one will not. To fight for the death for freedom is easily imaginable, while fighting to the death for safety is almost self-contradictory.


9. I'm not entirely sure the map would be redrawn or any names would change.

10. Most likely it would go back to being a constitutional republic.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 04:42 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man


How about the civil war through WWI?


You mean the time period where you decimated the rest of the native populations and subjugated them to living substandard lives on reservations? Not to mention a war with Mexico, Remember the Alamo? I am probably forgetting many other examples. There hasn't been a 10-20 year period of peace which i would then classify an ear. Even 10 years isn't really enough. Try being inpower for almost 1000 years like the Romans before you have lengthy eras of peace.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
7. What liberties and freedoms would be the first to go. In what aspects of our life as American citizens would we see the first changes?


They point to the system whereby all visitors to the US are to be digitally photographed and fingerprinted. The EU has agreed that member states must fingerprint all passport holders by the end of 2007. The information will be held on databases.
National ID cards, they warn, will become a "globally interoperable biometric passport". The setting up of airlines' passenger name records (PNRs) could include more than 60 different kinds of information, including meal choices which could reveal personal, religious or ethnic affiliations.
The US and EU governments are expanding legal powers to eavesdrop and to store the product of intercepted personal communications, the groups warn.
They also point to an agreement between Europol - the EU's incipient police headquarters - and the US giving what they say will be an unlimited number of American agencies access to sensitive information on the race, political opinions, religious beliefs, health and sexual life of individuals.
The groups point to increasingly close cooperation between national police, security, intelligence, and military establishments.
To achieve their ends, they say, governments have suspended judicial oversight over law enforcement agents and public officials, concentrated unprecedented power in the hands of the executive arm of government, and rolled back criminal law and due process protections that balance the rights of individuals against the power of the state.
These initiatives, say the civil liberty groups, are not effective in identifying terrorists.

Madman- I thought this was about 'opinions' like answers to questions- and if mine are too provocative - be like the Bush Administration and global warming- pretend they don't exist. Reagan- a hero????
My memory fails me, as does Rummys' and Scrubbys' -frequently.

So Iraqi protesters don't have to endure being on Pier 57 and exposed to toxic chemicals, like the protesters to the 'keep quiet party' extravaganza. Seems Americans are torturing their own people, just like Saddam Hussein.
www.indymedia.org...



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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First off I'd like to say thank you to everyone who replied, and an extra thanks goes out to those who answered each question.

While this may seem a conspiratorial line of questions it actually has a basis in fact. It was a common belief among many of our founding fathers that a democracy is only a transitory state for any given government, referencing democracies and republics thorughout history. In fact the very formation of how our government works was built around the objective of keeping the democracy going as long as possible while at the same time keeping the "dirty masses' from revolting. During the first Convention this topic was brought up many times. John Adams wrote in a letter to John Taylor of Caroline:

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. it soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

This may cause a slight tinge of disheartening fear in many of us but the prevelant fear among those present at the congress was that of their own fate. Being mainly wealthy landowners and those of the professional class many feared a recurrence of the treatment of Brittish aristocrats unfortunate enough to fail to secure passage from the colonies. The founding fathers feared that as a virtually powerless landless populus arose a revolution would yet again be inevitable and their fate would be sealed in accordance to their treatment of the proleteriate. James Madison put this into words:

"in the future a great many people will not only be without land but any other sort of property" and in turn "...they will become the tools of opulence and ambition, in which case there will be danger on another side."

Basicly what Madison is stating is exactly what has happened. He predicted a sort of serfdom, wherein landless, propertyless, and historicly powerless people become the tools of the rich. The people will become fuel for the machinations of opulence. The vast majority of the US population, in fact, owns very little. Most land is owned by a small number of very wealthy families with the rest being absently owned by the government. I would wager to bet that at least 90% of any given US urban population owns aboslutely nothing of worth in the eyes of the founding fathers.

Madison's fear was that this new proleteriate would refuse to stand for the serfdom any longer. This fear was echoed by many at the Continental Congress who fore saw it's manifestation in one of two ways. A violent and unstopable uprising of the people, or through a democratic process voting the property out of the hands of the aristocracy and into the hands of the people.

Both of these fears were considered in the writting of the constitution and the very structure of our democratic process. Shaye's rebellion had been recently quelled and caused those present at the congress to view state governments as governments of the people, governments which could poissibly have little concern for the well being of a far off aristocracy. The solution came in a form of federated states, in which local governments would concern themselves with loccal issues and a larger federal government could step in and secure the safety of the country, i.e. the aristocracy in charge. They also believed that by filtering the "uneducated" views and requests of the masses through "chosen representatives" would appease the people while giving the illusion that their voices are being heard.

Currently we find ourselves in just the situation Madison predicted. In addition the federal government seems to supercede state government with impunity, our voice is heard less and less, we are without property and since the aboliton of the gold standard we are vitually without money. Yet another fear has been realised in our times. The founding fathers believed the danger of a democracy lies in the fact that the people can form parties that grow ever larger until they recieve the majority vote. We find many special interest parties banding together to garner more votes and with each election this "under dog" voice gets louder and louder.

It seems as though the destruction of America as we know it was not only expected in the creation of our country but also planned for. Our government was set up to keep the ultimate power from the people for as long as possible. The fathers had viewed us with a Hobbesian opinion that man is essentially a carnal warlike creature in need of leadership in the form of more "enlightened" people. In many ways I would tend to agree, i don't believe that the majority of the american populous would be a good candidate for political office and many lack the first idea of how government works. However, much of what our founding fathers had seen as evidence of our Hobbesian state was the fact that we hold no land or properties, for if we did we would logically have to be "enlightened" as well.

Given this historical context it would seem as though the sun is setting on the days of democracy and that whatever may be the next form of government is the expected and natural evolution of our country. Moreover, I would risk it to say that there MUST be another evolution of our state, the danger therein laying in what the next stage will be. Aristocratic fears have painted a picture of their true concerns, themselves and their money, they're worst fear being the wresting of their lands and properties and redistribution among the proletariate. I suppose the answer to our future lays in your opinion of mankind as a whole, are we carnal, evil creatures intent on a Facist or Communist degredation of our American society, or do you believe that people are inherently good and that Americans are more concerned with the well being of the nation over themselves and would lead us into a glorious new Republic. Granted much of the debate that went on before the writting of the constitution was on an intellectual and philosophical level with arguably little basis in reality but the outcome of the debate has become self evident reality for the past 200 years.

While my previous line of questioning may seem familiar I believe it to be all too relevant to our time and am still interested to see your opinions. If you have a question you believe should be added to the list them please feel free to do so. thank you agin to those who responded.

(qoutes referenced fromt he book "The American Poilitcal Tradition" by Richard Hofstadter, Vintage Press, orginally published in 1948)



posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
1. What era would you believe to be the Pax Americana?


I would agree with others who have already posted that there never has been a Pax Americana. This nation was founded on the theft and attempted genocide of an entire population, that continued for over a century. Now that I think about it it still continues as the government is now trying to get indian casinos to pay taxes!!! After years of systematic attempts at Genocide, our native population is finally thriving (financially) and all of a sudden they owe us taxes.



2.Do you believe we are currently in the parabolic down swing of America as a culture, nation, and world power? If so, why?


Yes! Why? I have studied latin and the Roman Empire to some lengths, and it would seem as if the very factors that have brought down EVERY empire (roman, greek, egyptian, assyrian, british, Napoleonic, german (?) Russian) are evident today. Over expansion, reliance on foreign goods to support our own economy, fighting wars on multiple fronts. You mentioned oil....The romans relied on outside sources for grains. They let their population starve to ensure the strength of their military which eventually bit them in the A*s. These amongst many others, are all major factors which most contribute to the decline of an empire, and they are all present in modern day America.




3. Ignoring what you have been told by the media, and what you have read on sites such as this, based solely on your personal experience and personal opinions do you believe America could degrade into a cesspool remeniscent of Orwell or the Soviet regime? Could we find ourselves living in fear of a seceret police, prison camps of unkown location, the death of all our freedoms, kidnappings in the middle of the night and politically motivated murders?


Degrade? AM I the only one who sees the Orwellian double speak that has become commonplace in the bush administration? We already incarcerate more people than ANY western nation, comparable only to Stalin. AS for kidnappings in the middle of the night, ha, I witnessed one in broad daylight by the justice department during the demonstrations at the 2000 democratic convention. SO I would have to say we can not deteriorate to a state which we are currently in.



4. What would be the root cause of the downfall of the American nation as a world power?


I already mentioned the root causes above. What will the catalyst be? I feel internal conflict. After the prices of resources continue to rise, and "average"anericans find it harder and harder to survive, then they will take to the streets. Let us not forget that we are all (ok not all but the anglo pop)descended from Rebellious Europeans, who didn't want to pay taxes or be subserviant to any monarch. At the heart of the American people still lies rebellious spirit. I feel it is the last fourty years of consumerism that has done it's all to destroy this spirit.


5. In your opinion, how long do you believe it would take America to grow from what it is now into the dystopian future proposed previously?

5-20 years. Complete with soldiers on every corner. Like what we saw during the Republican convention in NY.

[quote6.Do you believe it would be a gradual change, taking place over generations in order to be conducive to re-education and indoctrination of the youth as to the workings of the new totaliterian state? Or do you believe it will happen in leaps and bounds, a politically darwinian de-evolution at unforeseen historical nodal points in which our leaders see fit to take the next step towards total control?

It has been gradual. Ever since the BS of the sixties we have seen more and more of our personal liberties stripped from us.


7. What liberties and freedoms would be the first to go. In what aspects of our life as American citizens would we see the first changes?


AS someone else mentioned the patriot act, I would have to agree. The right to free speach, right to privacy, and the right to peacefully assemble in public, have already been tampered with.


8. Do you believe that the negating of our rights and the drastic downturn of our quality of life woulld be enough to stir the restless masses to revolution? Do you believe that the American populous would rise up against it's opressors as it has in the past or would it be too little too late and the revolution would be put to rest?

I think it might start a few fires, but as our government has shown time and time again. They have no problem firing on their own citizens. They will take out any threat Foreign or Domestic. It is already too little too late.


9. If yes, what would be the outcome of a second American Revolution? Would the map be redrawn? Would the name be changed etc?


If people still do have the Balls, then it would be complete Anarchy. Much of the southwest would belong back to mexico, Middle America will be the safest, with major sities like Ny, LA, D.C, and others under permanent martial law. Until problem solved or our society is ruined


10.What form of government would the New America adopt? What countries would it ally with?


Could not even imagine........Think Kevin Costners the Postman
Of course all of this is IMHO




posted on Apr, 30 2005 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by jawapunk
You mean the time period where you decimated the rest of the native populations and subjugated them to living substandard lives on reservations? Not to mention a war with Mexico, Remember the Alamo? I am probably forgetting many other examples. There hasn't been a 10-20 year period of peace which i would then classify an ear. Even 10 years isn't really enough. Try being inpower for almost 1000 years like the Romans before you have lengthy eras of peace.


How about we carry this off topic and discuss all those "peaceful" years in Western Europe, huh?
Keep talking.....



seekerof




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