PLAN 2005

Originally posted by rogue1
Don't forget the US practically invented modern logistics. Any major war with China would send the US Military-Industrial complex into overdrive, new factories would be established and the priduction of munitions increased exponentially.

It doesn't matter how much you produce and how well you get it to the theater, it's about how well you get it to your troops. We have had trouble doing that and apparently it hasn't been improving.

Not to mention the U.S. military-industrial complex going into overdrive wouldn't be such a pretty thing. We'd lose a lot in other areas. So let's just hope we never have to invade China and instead just stick with Taiwan should we fight China.

Originally posted by rogue1
You should really step back and try and take a real world perspective not some fantasy land.

Hmm... and I'm the one pissing people off, right?

More Pictures

Could it Be YJ-12... the ramjet powered anti-ship missile?

Originally posted by xmotex
It's worth noting that the US is very blunt about not having a No First Use policy, and if a carrier bit the dust, or was about to, I believe the US would go nuclear first. 5,000 or so sailors dead in a few minutes would not go over well domestically, and some dramatic response would be expected. Possibly a nuclear attack on a PLAN surface group out at sea - I think the US would be careful to avoid any strikes on the Chinese mainland though. That would put a lot of pressure on the Chinese to retaliate against the US proper, something they can do if they want. The US is unlikely to be willing to trade Honolulu or San Diego for Taipei.

The Chinese would most likely retaliate without escalating, IE some kind of very measured nuclear response against a US military target, also in response to internal pressures more than real military necessity.

I don't think any of this is really likely though. Both China and the US have way too much to lose by going to war with each other, we're major trading partners for one thing. For another we're both nuclear powers, and the potential for each side to inflict catastrophic damage on the other is a strong mutual deterrent.

I also think China, with it's burgeoning middle class and increasing impatience with government ineptitude and corruption, is likely to become freer place by itself without outside interference. It's harder to oppress a prosperous people than an impoverished one.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by xmotex]

For China to defeat the U.S. in a war over Taiwan, China cannot try to match the U.S. Right now, it can't. Instead, it has to be able to answer to everything the U.S. does against China. That's what the U.S. has been lucky enough to avoid in this modern age, enemies that have the ability to answer every action by the U.S.

I also think China will become a freer place as time goes by. The thing to remember, though, is that being freer will not improve relations between China and the U.S. That is a misconception. In fact, if anything, being freer and more liberal will probably heat up relations even further, as both nations will try to be the top dog of freedom and prosperity in the world.

img.photobucket.com...

This pic looks photoshopped! What happened to the ground and the shadow? It looks like there was something on the ground but they decided to "censor" it without it looking like a censor...

Probably some ugly guy walking in front of the camera

btw I wonder how practical those facet hulls of the Type 052 are? It will definitely reduce radar signature but by how much? I'm sure the smaller catamaran patrol boat will have much better at stealth because more of its body is made of facets than the Type 052 and becaus it's smaller.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by Taishyou]

Originally posted by xmotex
It's worth noting that the US is very blunt about not having a No First Use policy, and if a carrier bit the dust, or was about to, I believe the US would go nuclear first. 5,000 or so sailors dead in a few minutes would not go over well domestically, and some dramatic response would be expected. Possibly a nuclear attack on a PLAN surface group out at sea - I think the US would be careful to avoid any strikes on the Chinese mainland though. That would put a lot of pressure on the Chinese to retaliate against the US proper, something they can do if they want. The US is unlikely to be willing to trade Honolulu or San Diego for Taipei.

The Chinese would most likely retaliate without escalating, IE some kind of very measured nuclear response against a US military target, also in response to internal pressures more than real military necessity.

I don't think any of this is really likely though. Both China and the US have way too much to lose by going to war with each other, we're major trading partners for one thing. For another we're both nuclear powers, and the potential for each side to inflict catastrophic damage on the other is a strong mutual deterrent.

If the US and China go to war, we will blunder into it somehow. It won't be by intent, but by miscalculation. I think both sides will be careful to avoid making moves that are likely to lead to hostilities, but noone can be sure what these moves are. The most dangerous error would be in an underestimation by either the ROC or US about how essential the Chinese consider the Taiwan issue to be to their soveriegnty - a particularly touchy issue given the last couple centuries of their history.

The most likely scenario is more of what we see now, ceremonial displays of naval and air power in the seas around Taiwan, dire growling from the Chinese, and continuing brisk trade by all concerned. Taiwan will eventually enter China's orbit more or less willingly. Not because they're bullied into it, but because that's where the money is going to be, and they aren't stupid.

I also think China, with it's burgeoning middle class and increasing impatience with government ineptitude and corruption, is likely to become freer place by itself without outside interference. It's harder to oppress a prosperous people than an impoverished one.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by xmotex]

I really doubt any country want to involve, specially asian countries

It really doesn't matter how many nukes US has? Simply Because population of US is 294 millions and over 70% amercian are living in Citys. But for china , population is 1.3 billions and over 70% people are living in country side and mountains. Japan, not sure but i doubt they are going to be that crazy,they will be smart if they don't involve, otherwise island of Japan will be dispeared on the world map, tiny small island and 70% japanese and indusries(include so many nuclear power station around) are around Tokyo...Finally Who is going to lose more? My guess: Both lost every thing, China will lose huge manpowers but still much more than US. US will loose most of the manpower and never going to be a superpower again..Who's going to win? Russian and europe is going up ...

[edit on 22-4-2005 by wfliu]

Umm, is that blue and white painted ship part of the PLAN? And I like the way those cruisers look very modern.



West Point, Out.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Umm, is that blue and white painted ship part of the PLAN? And I like the way those cruisers look very modern.



West Point, Out.

Water-Piercing Catamaran FAC

The PLA Navy is currently building a new type of fast attack craft (FAC) based on a unique wave-piercing catamaran hull design with strong evident stealthy features. The first vessel, carrying the pennant number 2208, was launched in April 2004 at Qingxin Shipyard in Shanghai. Since then, at least another three boats (2209, 2210, and 2211) have been identified under construction at Qiuxin as well as and Huangou Shipyard in Guangzhou.

The new FAC seems to be derived from a similar civil wave-piercing catamaran high-speed boat design, which was introduced by Qiuxin Shipyard few years ago. The boat features a wave-piercing catamaran hull, which provides both high-speed performance as well as good stability. When travelling at a high speed, the water-piercing body lifts the hull up above the water surface to reduce the resistance of water. The vessel is therefore virtually ‘flying’ on the water surface. At the same time, the wider catamaran hull provides a more stable platform comparing to the conventional single-hull design. This will be of great value for the operation of weapon systems and sensors onboard.

The new FAC possibly represents some new concepts in the PLA Navy’s future littoral warfare. While continuing to build large surface combatants capable of operating far from shore, the PLA Navy is also trying to modernise its littoral warfare fleet suitable for operation in shallow waters off the coast. By linking the vessel with land-based, shipborne, airborne, and even space-based sensors, it is possible to build a wider networked weapon platform and sensor grid, which can be effectively used against enemy surface targets.

No details on the weapon systems and sensors onboard the new FAC is available. Judging from its appearance, the vessel probably carries four anti-ship missiles and one Russian AK-630 30mm close-in weapon system (CIWS). There is also a datalink mask between the missile launchers which can be used to receive target information from other airborne or shipborne sensors.

info at sinodefence.com

new PLAN aegis ship




A C802 anti-ship missile was launched from a submarine.


digital soilder


Type 092 / "Xia" class SSBN


Type 091 / "Han" class SSN


Type 039 / "Song" class SSG


another han class


T-63A Amphibious Tanks


PLA Navy Submarine Fleet


PLA Navy Surface Warship Fleet


Type 057 Frigates
[mg]http://user1.7host.com/drno/news/_057Frigate_MT.jpg[/img]

Shen Zhen" Destroyer - 167

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by rogue1
Don't forget the US practically invented modern logistics. Any major war with China would send the US Military-Industrial complex into overdrive, new factories would be established and the priduction of munitions increased exponentially.

It doesn't matter how much you produce and how well you get it to the theater, it's about how well you get it to your troops. We have had trouble doing that and apparently it hasn't been improving.

Not to mention the U.S. military-industrial complex going into overdrive wouldn't be such a pretty thing. We'd lose a lot in other areas. So let's just hope we never have to invade China and instead just stick with Taiwan should we fight China.

What trouble?

Plan Aegis ship? Get real! That's a bathtub toy!

Let's look at it a little closer.

It's got a vertical launcher forward. There doesn't appear to be enough room to have one aft. It looks like each one of those six circles has four VLS cells in it, but it could probably fit up to six cells in each. That gives it somewhere from 24-36 missiles. I'd guess they carry a mix of AAW missiles and ASCM's.

There are two phased array radar antennas forward. There are probably two more on the aft part of the superstructure. But look at how cluttered it is back there. That radar might get 360 degrees of coverage several miles out, but all that stuff cluttering the aft decks is going to require some large radar cutouts. They aren't very high above the water. That makes for a shorter radar horizon which means less range, especially surface range.

The ship is narrow and top heavy, which will make it bob like a cork in the water. It will bob tied to the pier in calm weather. That makes for an unstable radar and weapon platform. It also means the crew will be sea sick more and therefore less ready to fight the ship. Believe me, I know about being sea sick! We were running from a hurricane one night in rough seas and we had 12 out of 342 people eat dinner that night.

That might be a 5" gun on the front, but it looks smaller. Maybe around 3"?

I don't know what that thing with the brown cover on the forward superstructure is. It looks like a 50cal or 20mm machine gun mount. It's where the Phallanx or RAM is on an Aegis hull.

Those four white pill-shaped things scattered topside are life boats. They will be released from the ship, sink, and then automatically inflate and rise to the surface when the pressure on them is high enough. However, the ones forward under the superstructure look hard to release over the side. I wouldn't want to be assigned to one of them. Also the hull of the ship wraps up at that point, forming a definite corner. There are no scuppers there to drain water. That means sea water will pond in those corners and corrode the superstructure fast. And yes, sea water will corrode aluminum, just not as fast as it will corrode steel. That also increases the sail area, which gives the wind more surface area to blow on and increases the bobbing of the ship. It also increases the radar cross section. It looks cool though.

I can't make out what most of the clutter back aft is, other than big radar returns. I don't see any canister launched ASCM's back there. I don't see any torpedo tubes either.

Now that I look closer at that brown thing up forward, there are two 'things' on either side of it that are covered, and two more on the back. Those look like the old, small, illuminators the US used to use for AAW missiles before the Standard Missile.

It's hard to judge the size of it, but I'm guessing it's about the size of a US frigate. It doesn't have many life boats so it's either got a small crew or maybe they are only provided for officers. I can't speak for how survivable it is because you can't determine the thickness of the hull, the placement of important systems inside the skin of the ship, the level of compartmentalization, etc.

While it has a phased array radar and VLS, it's no Aegis.

im not to sure about the aegis ship bit got it off this website

user1.7host.com...

little info about it

Lanzhou Class (Type 052C) Guided Missile Destroyer (DDG)

The Type 052C (Lanzhou class) is the latest guided missile destroyer (DDG) built by Jiangnan Shipyard at Shanghai for the PLA Navy. It is the most modern and sophisticated surface combatant ever deployed by the PLA Navy. So far two hulls (170, 171) have been built, with the first ship joining service in July 2004. The acquisition of the Type 052C DDG represents yet another big step forward in China’s effort to build a ‘blue water’ naval force.

PROGRAMME

Following the launch of two Type 052B (Guangzhou class) guided missile destroyers in 2002, Jiangnan Shipyard continued to build two more advanced Type 052C (Lanzhou class) destroyers. The first ship Lanzhou (pennant number 170), which was laid down in late 2002 and launched on 29 April 2003, entered service with the PLA Navy in July 2004. The second ship (pennant number 171) was launched on 30 October 2003 and is expected to join the service in 2005. It is not known whether more ships are to follow.

The Type 052C shares the same hull design with the Type 052B constructed by the same shipyard shortly before, but its weapon systems and sensors are much more advanced. The Type 052C features a range of newly developed systems not previously seen onboard other Chinese warships. The most notables include the HQ-9/S-300F air defence missiles launched from the vertical launching system (VLS), the four-array multifunction phased array radar (PAR) similar to the U.S. AN/SPY-1 Aegis, and the YJ-85 (C-805) anti-ship missile. Technological advances in the Type 052C has brought the Chinese navy the true fleet air defence capability for the first time in its history.

The destroyer’s overall air defence, surface strike, and antisubmarine warfare (ASW) capabilities will largely depend on how well different weapon systems and sensors are integrated together by the combat system. Most Chinese warships use the command and control system derived from the French Thomson-CSF TAVITAC, but the Type 052C might have a newly developed system with improved processing power. The command. control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR) capabilities of the Type 052C are very likely to be beneficiaries of China’s fast growing information technology (IT) and telecommunications industry since the late 1990s.

Some reports indicated that the Type 052C might be used to provide fleet air defence cover for the future Chinese aircraft carrier battle group. With its advanced air defence system, the ship could also be used as the command ship for a surface combatant fleet. Nevertheless, the Type 052C gives the PLA Navy the capability which was not previously possessed by the force. The building of two Type 052C DDGs represents the latest progress in the Chinese navy’s effort to transform itself from a costal defence force to a ‘blue water’ oceanic navy.


DESIGN

The ship’s construction is carried out through a modular approach to save construction time and costs. The two Type 052C destroyers are based on the same hull design as the two Type 052B destroyers which were launched earlier in the same shipyard, but are fitted with different weapon systems and sensors for different missions.

Compared to the Type 052B, the forward superstructure of the Type 052C is much taller, embedded with four fixed phased array radar antennas on the four sides. There is a helicopter flight deck and a hanger to accommodate two Russian Ka-28 Halix-A ASW/SAR helicopters.

AIR DEFENCE

Details of the air defence missile system onboard the Type 052C is unclear, although unconfirmed reports indicated that it might be the shipborne variant of the Chinese indigenous Hong Qi-9 (HQ-9) long-range SAM system. The semi-active radar guided HQ-9 SAM is believed to have been under development since the mid-1990s, and is said to be comparable in general performance to the Russian S-300 and U.S. Patriot. Another report indicated that this might be the S-300F (NATO codename: SA-N-6 Grumble) purchased from Russia.

A total of 48 air defence missiles are launched from eight 6-cell VLS. Each missile launch cell has its own lid, a design which apparently differs from the Russian-style revolver VLS. The missile system adopts the so-called ‘cold launch’, in which the missile was first ejected from the launch tube, and then ignites its rocket engine at low altitude. This launch style avoids the complex flame and gas exhausting pipes on the Western-style ‘hot launch’ VLS.

Short-range air defence is provided by two Type 730 close-in weapon systems (CIWS). Coupled with the air defence missile system, they provide a multi-layer, omni-direction air defence against enemy aircraft and sea-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs).

WEAPONS

The Type 052C is equipped with two four-cell anti-ship missile (YJ-85 or YJ-12?) launchers installed between rear mast and the helicopter hanger. The tube-ship launcher indicates that the missile is a new design different from the previous YJ-8 (C-801) series anti-ship missile. Detailed information on the missile’s performance is not available.

There is also one compact single 100mm gun installed on the front deck of the ship.

SENSORS

There are four fixed phased array antennas in the forward superstructure of the Type 052C, with two covering the forward hemisphere and the other pair covering the rear hemisphere. The similar arrangement can be seen on the US Navy's Arleigh Burkes and the Japanese Kongos. Reports indicate this radar system may be a co-development program with the Kvant-Radiolokatsiya company of the Ukraine. The band and performance of this radar have not yet been publicly reported. The radar may be a developed version of that first seen on the 970 weapons test ship, and could either be S-Band or Russian-style X-Band.

The anti-ship missiles are guided by the Band Stand radar located on top of the bridge and a Light Bulb datalink on the hanger. The same guidance package was also found onboard the Type 052B DDG.

The Type 052C has a metric-wave radar with Tagi antenna for long-range air/surface search and electronic countermeasures (ECM). The radar is possibly a modified variant of the Type 517H-1 Knife Rest operating at A-Band.

The ship is also expected to have a new generation of Aegis-like C3I system.

COUNTERMEASURES

A new EW suite featuring phased array antennas similar to AN/SLQ-32 EW system is on the side of the forward mast.

The ship also has four multi-purpose 16-barrel chaff/decoy multiple rocket launchers installed in the middle of the ship.

PROPULSION

The propulsion system might be in the form of CODOG consisting of two Ukraine-made DA80/DN80 gas turbines rated at 72,600hp (55 MW) and two indigenous diesels (Chinese copy of the MTU 20V956TB92) rated at 8,840 hp (6.5 MW).

Peanutbutter let me show u some clearer photos... Hope they help u out





****SOME MORE****
img.photobucket.com...
img.photobucket.com...

Nice pics.. nice ships...
AS I said the PLAN is capable of entrenching themselvs in taiwan and playing out a long drawn war against the USN..
Those FACs, cruisers and SSGs look good for that..
Sombody gave me an article on ATS stating that the Xiz 'may' have lost in a 1985 accident..
And how are those Han subs as compared to akulas/LA class nuke attack subs?

And apologies for digressing to US-China stuff again..

Wow, I must say that is a lot of pics. Looks like China is pumping out ships fast.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by twchang]

WestPoint...... The one you were talking about is the new Chinese Fast Attack Craft 22xx (At least 3-4 have been built). I still think they should of left the boat the original color, but maybe the paint scheme will be used for an advantage.

*Off Topic But Good Picture*

Nice pics.. nice ships...
AS I said the PLAN is capable of entrenching themselvs in taiwan and playing out a long drawn war against the USN..
Those FACs, cruisers and SSGs look good for that..

How can you use pictures to determine what the ship is capable off?
The PLAN cannot yet fight with the USN over Taiwan.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Nice pics.. nice ships...
AS I said the PLAN is capable of entrenching themselvs in taiwan and playing out a long drawn war against the USN..
Those FACs, cruisers and SSGs look good for that..

How can you use pictures to determine what the ship is capable off?
The PLAN cannot yet fight with the USN over Taiwan.

There we go again, back into the ol' flame war of PLAN vs USN. This is just about the PLAN in 2005, why does it always have to turn into a PLAN vs USN discussion. You're not paranoid are you? "Oh there's nothing to fear, we're the best they can't touch us!"

Hey I did not star it, I'm responding to a member who seem to known the tech and capabilities of a ship by its outer appearance.
And where was that picture of the U.S. soldier and Chine guy taken?