PLAN 2005

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
I already know about those, but hitting a sea-skimming missle going at mach 2 isn't easy work, even with technology on the Aegis.

Air launched Sunburn has NO chance. It has only 120-150km range and there is no way the plane can go that close to the carrier. The only way to use Sunburns efectively is to fire them form surface (if carrier is close to shore enough - highly unlikely) or from the sub. I don't know if China has submarines with ability to fire sunburn or similar misile, I think kilo is not able to do it, because sunburn is too big and Chinese nuclear subs are too loud.

Ok. What if the planes flown at mach 1.5 sea skimming kamikaze style, then fired the sunburns? There isn't much time for detection, around a minute or slightly more. Trust me, there are plenty of ways to sink a carrier, just that it will be difficult.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Ok. What if the planes flown at mach 1.5 sea skimming kamikaze style, then fired the sunburns? There isn't much time for detection, around a minute or slightly more. Trust me, there are plenty of ways to sink a carrier, just that it will be difficult.

It coud work against ships alone, but you are forgetting Hawkeye and planes with -look down/shoot down radar- cruising 10 000 meters over the area. There is no way a plane could go that close over sea, especially plane like Su-30 with such big RCS.

I already know about those, but hitting a sea-skimming missle going at mach 2 isn't easy work, even with technology on the Aegis.

No its not easy but we can do it, read this link it tells you how we can shoot down the Sunburn.

If a plane was sea skimming, it's radar would be very limited. Radar has a horizon just like our eyes do. Flying at 50' altitude would give the plane a radar horizon of about 12 miles. It's going to get lost before it finds the carrier. Plus, down low on the water is no where that a pilot wants to be. No where to manuever, slower speeds, and the fact that other aircraft looking down on it will be able to achieve surprise.

If a carrier has blue water under it's hull, no one is going to get close enough to launch a sunburn at it. Like I said before, I highly doubt another US carrier group could get close enough to shoot one.

The carriers have it's support ships strategicly placed to defend it against air, surface, and subsurface threats. You're not going to get passed a wall of Aegis ships in position around the carrier.

The sunburn is a huge threat when the carrier is in restricted manuevering, like passing through a canal or a narrow strait, but in open water you're just not going to get close enough to a carrier to fire a shot at it.

It's not impossible considering the Europeans have had a decent success rate in excercises.

Considering a british frigate sailed in... destroyed the carrier and sailed away again unchallenged speaks volumes.

Then there was the norweigans who managed to wipe out an entire carrier fleet with one submarine and then again managed to catch out the british in a similar excercise.

...and God said, "LET THERE BE WAR".

...and there was. And it was good.

Originally posted by Odium
I've always wondered, would the Chinese pilots be willing to run a kamikazi style attack on the Carriers? And would that work? Because I think it'd be a damn good way to cripple the carriers - payload of bombs, flown right into the ship.
Anyone any ideas on if they'd do such a thing?

Kamikaze tactic is not possible. If you're going to ram a plane into a ship, might as well use a missile that flies twice as fast + no lives lost + cheaper than a plane.

China does however have a UAV suicide plane. They're turning their MASSIVE arsenal of obsolete J-5 (MiG-17s) into remote controlled suicide planes with warheads (think of it as a crude cruise missile). They can also be used as decoy, to make the enemy empty their missile load on a bunch of dummies then attack when they're out of ammo.
www.sinodefence.com...

[edit on 17-4-2005 by Taishyou]

You people need to read more military history! Every weapon designer claims his system is effective and has the test results to back it up. Come war time some unforseen curicumstance creeps in to undermind the so called effectiveness. Usually this has some thing to do with the fact that the enemy you fight is not an abstraction but a living breathing foe who is doing his best to maximise his success and minimize yours. To every measure their is a counter measure.

First you send out hundreds of trawlers parading around and through the carrier group masquerading as fishing fleet and feeding back target coordinates to HQ.

AWACS can be destroyed by ultra long range ARMs that are designed to be launched from 400km range. Any carrier group has weakness its just a matter of finding and exploiting them. There are only 4 AWACS in each carrier which means that only 2 can fly at any one time from a 2 carrier battle group. With the right missiles this would not be that hard to knock these out or neutralise them long enough to get a squadron of interceptors in close enough to shoot it down.

When that time comes men on the trawlers whip out their man portable SAMs and shoot down AWACS that are launching to replace shot down AWACS.

Once the AWACS are gone the carrier aviation effectiveness is cut in half due to much larger usage of fuel to fly cap missions. The battle group becomes dependant on AOE replenishment ships . These are what you send your long range subs against, to interdict the supply lines. If the carriers can't get the fuel, they can't fly any missions.

Once that occurs combined FAC/jet assaults with waves of antishiping missiles. I understand that decoys are in development for small high velocity ASMs to overwhelm airdefence radars, greatly reducing effectiveness of ship launched missiles, thus deploying decoys can overwhelm the battle group airdefence.No matter how good the defence some Sunburns will get through.

Mean while the Subs are slipping into the inner circle for torpedo runs ,since the escort ships are desperately tring to shoot down waves of antishipping missiles. True SSN can screen some of this but they are limited to slow ops to avoid detection. Thus they may only be able to deal with one in bound sub each. Overwhelm these with multiple subs and some will get through.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by psteel]

[edit on 17-4-2005 by psteel]

psteel your a great story teller you should write a book titled " Stupid but amusing military strategies".

And the UAV’s would be even easier to shoot down as they are bigger and slower than a missile. Plus run our of ammunition? This is a 21st century batte group, they have something called supply ships.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

Some of what you mentioned might work if you're launching a peacetime surprise attack, but not at a time of war.

First you send out hundreds of trawlers parading around and through the carrier group masquerading as fishing fleet and feeding back target coordinates to HQ.

Not gonna happen. The trawlers will be warned off by radio, then by helo, then finally with shots fired over their bow. If they don't leave they'll be boarded or simply sunk.

AWACS can be destroyed by ultra long range ARMs that are designed to be launched from 400km range. Any carrier group has weakness its just a matter of finding and exploiting them. There are only 4 AWACS in each carrier which means that only 2 can fly at any one time from a 2 carrier battle group. With the right missiles this would not be that hard to knock these out or neutralise them long enough to get a squadron of interceptors in close enough to shoot it down.

True to a point. The E-2C's never go out alone. They will spot the incoming bogeys and vector aircraft to intercept. The E-2's will be able to see 400km, as will the Aegis ships, and will detect the ARM's when launched and in flight. The E-3's will probably go to EMCON then and shut down the radar until the ARM runs out of fuel. If the ARMs go close enough to one of the CG's or DDG's they are toast.

When that time comes men on the trawlers whip out their man portable SAMs and shoot down AWACS that are launching to replace shot down AWACS.

Even if a peacetime surprise attack was launched, the trawlers wouldn't be there. But to play the game, if they somehow managed to get there they would be warned off, boarded, or sunk as soon as the carrier's aircraft were attacked.

Once the AWACS are gone the carrier aviation effectiveness is cut in half due to much larger usage of fuel to fly cap missions. The battle group becomes dependant on AOE replenishment ships . These are what you send your long range subs against, to interdict the supply lines. If the carriers can't get the fuel, they can't fly any missions.

This is true, the aircraft needs fuel. However, they have enough fuel on board to fight for a long time. They carry so much fuel the other surface ships pull up alongside them to refuel. Plus, an AOE is a member of the battlegroup and will be near the carrier. They'd be on station for a long time before fuel started to become a concern. Additional AOE's would be sent, in time, but would be escorted and protected.

Once that occurs combined FAC/jet assaults with waves of antishiping missiles. I understand that decoys are in development for small high velocity ASMs to overwhelm airdefence radars, greatly reducing effectiveness of ship launched missiles, thus deploying decoys can overwhelm the battle group airdefence.No matter how good the defence some Sunburns will get through.

You have to fight through the carrier's aircraft, and available land based aircraft, and the Aegis ships to get into firing range. Most decoys used nowadays can be detected as such. Do you know how many ASM's, or how many targets for that matter, it would take to overwhelm an Aegis SPY-1 radar? The number is classified, but is HUGE! I seriously doubt China has enough aircraft capable of launching sunburns to pull that off. To do that would require the largest air raid history has ever seen.

Mean while the Subs are slipping into the inner circle for torpedo runs ,since the escort ships are desperately tring to shoot down waves of antishipping missiles. True SSN can screen some of this but they are limited to slow ops to avoid detection. Thus they may only be able to deal with one in bound sub each. Overwhelm these with multiple subs and some will get through.

First, the ships train by fighting in multiple threat environments all the time. The ship's CIC isn't one or two people doing everything, there is a whole team for AAW, for ASW, and for ASUW. The AAW guys will be busy with the largest air raid in history, but the ASW guys won't even see the air targets on their displays. They'll be watching the data from the hull mounted and towed array sonars, the LAMPS helos, and the sonobouys. There would be two LAMPS from each of the surface ships, I don't know how many from the carrier (a lot) and countless P-3's from the carrier and from shore facilities. LAMPS is so lethal to subs it's hardly fair. They fly around dropping sonobouys and dipping their sonar or MAD until they acquire a target. Then they fly to the target and drop a torpedo on top of it.

You have to think about more than the raid itself. Think about China's logistics for such an attack. Can they coordinate such a massive attack? I don't think so. You're talking about launching the biggest air raid in history concurrently with the largest sub raid, and with people in trawlers trying to get near the carrier. All timed just right. When the E-2C is fired on, it will be noticed right away as an overt act of war, and if it wasn't a surprise attack in peacetime the Chinese command and control, radars, etc., would have inbound TLAMS to deal with. Once they hit, China wouldn't be able to organize this massive raid and I think it would turn into the world's largest turkey shoot.

Edited to put in a missing quote tag.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by PeanutButterJellyTime]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
psteel your a great story teller you should write a book titled " Stupid but amusing military strategies".

And the UAV’s would be even easier to shoot down as they are bigger and slower than a missile. Plus run our of ammunition?

This is a 21st century batte group, they have something called supply ships.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

Go back again and re read my post since you clearly didn't...where did I mention UAVs?

Obviously the space between my sentences represents a change in topic, therefore when I was talking about UAV’s I was referring to the member that posted before you did.

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTime


Not gonna happen. The trawlers will be warned off by radio, then by helo, then finally with shots fired over their bow. If they don't leave they'll be boarded or simply sunk.

Good and while they are bussly engaging that futile task's, the subs are Drifting past them into position ...infact so slow they are not detectable even by the SSNs until at point blank range.

True to a point. The E-2C's never go out alone. They will spot the incoming bogeys and vector aircraft to intercept. The E-2's will be able to see 400km, as will the Aegis ships, and will detect the ARM's when launched and in flight. The E-3's will probably go to EMCON then and shut down the radar until the ARM runs out of fuel. If the ARMs go close enough to one of the CG's or DDG's they are toast.

Meanwhile the interceptor squadrons are moving in at low altitude , while the AWACS shuts down. This is below the Ageis horizon leaving only the few availabe CAP to try to intercept the squadrons of strike & interceptors. If the Cap go after the low altitude strike , the interceptors can go after the AWACS and shoot it down and probably the CAP along the way since they will be badly out numbered [how many AAMs do F-18 carry on cap?].

Even if a peacetime surprise attack was launched, the trawlers wouldn't be there. But to play the game, if they somehow managed to get there they would be warned off, boarded, or sunk as soon as the carrier's aircraft were attacked.

Again good, since it ensures they can not either participate in the fleet air defence or ASW missions, further garrenteeing that some of the Strike jets and FACs get into position to launch their missiles, while the subs drift into torpedo range.

This is true, the aircraft needs fuel. However, they have enough fuel on board to fight for a long time. They carry so much fuel the other surface ships pull up alongside them to refuel. Plus, an AOE is a member of the battlegroup and will be near the carrier. They'd be on station for a long time before fuel started to become a concern. Additional AOE's would be sent, in time, but would be escorted and protected.

They have 3 weeks supplies based on previous consumption. Flying continuous CAP missions will suck this dry in 1/2 that time. Either way they are fighting for their lives rather than being able to intervene in TW invasion etc etc.

As I already mentioned in the original post , the AOEs are already interdicted by the long range SSNs, so they are unable to resupply the battle groups.

Result massive political victory for PLAN.

You have to fight through the carrier's aircraft, and available land based aircraft, and the Aegis ships to get into firing range. Most decoys used nowadays can be detected as such. Do you know how many ASM's, or how many targets for that matter, it would take to overwhelm an Aegis SPY-1 radar? The number is classified, but is HUGE! I seriously doubt China has enough aircraft capable of launching sunburns to pull that off. To do that would require the largest air raid history has ever seen.

Its dangerous to assume decoys can be detected...since they have historically been very effective [Kosovo & ODS]. No matter since the USN battle group only have a limited number of SAMS on board since the vast majority of the cells are full of TLAMs. You may be thinking in terms of a few antishipping missiles attacking in a wave, but it could very well be many scores , since they are launched from many FACs and strike aircraft squadrons.

First, the ships train by fighting in multiple threat environments all the time. The ship's CIC isn't one or two people doing everything, there is a whole team for AAW, for ASW, and for ASUW. The AAW guys will be busy with the largest air raid in history, but the ASW guys won't even see the air targets on their displays. They'll be watching the data from the hull mounted and towed array sonars, the LAMPS helos, and the sonobouys. There would be two LAMPS from each of the surface ships, I don't know how many from the carrier (a lot) and countless P-3's from the carrier and from shore facilities. LAMPS is so lethal to subs it's hardly fair. They fly around dropping sonobouys and dipping their sonar or MAD until they acquire a target. Then they fly to the target and drop a torpedo on top of it.

That is funny! If EH-101 are barly adqate to the task LAMPS are next to useless. Firstly the LAMPS and airborne ASM Patrol plane would likely fall victum to the massive airbattle going on overhead, and you need to study up on ASW. Its next to impossible to detect a SSK when its drifting....but good luck with your defence. Most wargames with foreign SSKs acting as red forces get through to sink the carrier. It was the standing joke in the 1980s about how many times the wargames had to be halted so the umpires could refloat the carriers! I see that tradition continues to this day.

You have to think about more than the raid itself. Think about China's logistics for such an attack. Can they coordinate such a massive attack? I don't think so. You're talking about launching the biggest air raid in history concurrently with the largest sub raid, and with people in trawlers trying to get near the carrier. All timed just right. When the E-2C is fired on, it will be noticed right away as an overt act of war, and if it wasn't a surprise attack in peacetime the Chinese command and control, radars, etc., would have inbound TLAMS to deal with. Once they hit, China wouldn't be able to organize this massive raid and I think it would turn into the world's largest turkey shoot.

If you think a few squadrons of planes are the largest raid in history you need to re read your history books. Besides its the right of any nation to conduct a pre emptive strike in face of a threatening power. The name of the game is dispelling illusions. Its far to easy say that China has not [as far as we know] trained to that level. But then neither has the USN. Most training involves a handful of missiles at one time and maybe the odd sub and surface contact....not scores and scores of strike jets and FACs and Subs attacking all at the same time!


[edit on 17-4-2005 by psteel]

[edit on 17-4-2005 by psteel]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Obviously the space between my sentences represents a change in topic, therefore when I was talking about UAV’s I was referring to the member that posted before you did.

since the responce was addressed at me how else should it have been understood. Next time if you intend to address several people at once it would be wiser to clarify who you are addressing.

Do you not read other posts, or do you just look for my posts?

China cannot sink a carrier with a mass wave attack method...
It'll be a pure waste of the stuff they commit for such an attack...
They'll be better of overwhelming taiwan, and then trenching in for a long drawn out defense of the island..
No need to sink carriers..
Carrier awareness extends to a radius of 1000km..
Nothing enmass can expect to get close enough to do significant damage to the carrier..the only way IMHO is by using kilos which are instructed/trained to fire specialised torpedoes at the propeller/axle..
Sinking a carrier requires too much munition..The Kilo will have to fire more than one spread at critical locations and by that time the kilo will be detected/sunk itself..

Gentlemen you are welcome to you delusions of grandure...but I suggest you start to be more realistic about power projection and risks involved. The most resent example of how easy it is to over come USN carrier defence was high lighted in that Millinium challenge back in 2002.General Ripper lead the red forces and sank the carrier with unconventional tactics. You can read more here but there were numerous articles in the past.

www.rense.com...

Don't forget though that exercise is close to real thing but there are still some difference.

But it is true that US shouldn't just think that carrier battle groups are invincible, and should have contigency plans as well. Carrier battle groups are a powerful force to be reckon with. One battle group's offensive and defensive capability surpess that of the most nations on earth. But every system has flaws and could be disabled. A carrier is like a mobile fortress or city protected by escorts. Since city and stronghold can be invaded, carreir can be "invaded" as well, although much harder because it is mobile can position itself in the right place at the right time.

[edit on 18-4-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by twchang
Don't forget though that exercise is close to real thing but there are still some difference.


[edit on 18-4-2005 by twchang]

The important thing to understand about the exercise is the gap between concepts and reality. Your enemy doesn't just sit their and do what a computer says it should. THe enemy sizes up his opponent. If he can't win conventionally then you use what ever asymetrical techniques you can lay your hands on...so from the MC exercise I would add scores and scores of small prop planes with some ordnance harassing the carrier airdefence at the same time all the combined assaults are being conducted. ...hell add a couple of "Stinger missile equivillents" to some of those prop driven planes to shoot down the ASW helios to prevent them from detected the subs.

Sooner or later your defence reachs point of saturation.

[edit on 18-4-2005 by psteel]