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Lessons from Masonry w/o Supreme Being?

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posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Athiests CAN join Grand Orient Lodges and they DO associate with so called "regular" Lodges just in the same way as blacks who are members of Prince Hall Lodges do, they just can't participate in Scottish Rite or York Rite assemblies in areas where the members are intolerant of their beliefs (or the colour of their skin etc...)


Nothing you have said above has any merit, Necros, and you know it. Stop spreading lies.


All of this really counts for nothing in my experience though, if they think you are susceptible then they will have you no matter who you are or what you believe.


I am so absolutely sick to death of your lies. You are abolustely LAUGHABLE. If you don't want to be a mason, WE DON'T WANT YOU. So get the delusions out of your head. Nobody tried forcing you to become a mason, and your relatives are not masons either. Stop accusing them of being something theyre not, just because you are delirious and paranoid.


Hey I'm not the one that's spreading these "Lies" - it's these two "Anti-Masons" called Abert Pike & Charles T McClenechan.
Anyone that would like to discuss the 32nd degree is welcome in the discussion thread of that name, at the moment the only people posting there are Freemasons venting their vitriol at me for making their precious secrets public.




posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
at the moment the only people posting there are Freemasons venting their vitriol at me for making their precious secrets public.


ARE YOU THAT DENSE!?!?!? NOBODY CARES THAT YOU POSTED THE STUPID RITUAL!!! IT WAS ALREADY PUBLIC!!! Get that through your thick skull you troll. Senrak even THANKED you for it! Why would he be mad? I have your site bookmarked! It will make good reference when you add more to it! Why would we care!?!? You are REALLY delusional.

That's been proven to you MANY times already, by several masons. But if you think we REALLY care, go ahead and post more ritual. Why don't you add the most popular rituals to your site, the three degrees? Post the obligations, and the charges. And don't forget the middle chamber lecture, that one's REALLY beautiful. Why not add some of the lessons as well? You know where to get them. PLEASE, do it!!! We don't care, millions of people have already seen them. We could give a rat's ass.

But please, stop trying to toot your own horn. You are paranoid and delusional, and YOU NEED HELP. Get it. Nobody here cares about you or any ritual you posted. You are meaningless to us. The only thing we care about are the stupid things you say, like above. We never post ANYTHING about you until you start spewing out stupid posts, like above. You are one delusional, self-centered troll.



[edit on 13-4-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 01:26 AM
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The whole reason I asked what I would learn from Freemasonry is because right now, of the books I have read about it (by Masons and non Masons0 I have been told I am mis-interpreting quotes.

I want to know what it is about my beliefs that results in my interpretation being invalid, because if I joined, I would still feel the same way about the symbolism.

That Freemasonry('s founder) basically started Science without the belief of God goes unmentioned, of course.

What is it that one learns about Zoroastrianism in Freemasonry, 32nd degree Masons?



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by akilles
I want to know what it is about my beliefs that results in my interpretation being invalid, because if I joined, I would still feel the same way about the symbolism.


Well, if you joined, the meaning of many of the symbols used would be specifically explained to you. As freemasonry is a system of morality, many of the tools are applied to our morals. If you deliberately chose to interpret symbols in a different manner to that which they were intended that would be entirely up to you, but freemasonry would make less sense to you as a result.


That Freemasonry('s founder) basically started Science without the belief of God goes unmentioned, of course.


Freemasonry evolved rather than was founded. Science did not start in freemasonry, and originally it was a Christian organisation. So wrong on all three counts.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
An atheist, not believing in any God, would regard the morality of the Bible as man-inspired. ."


So would a Hindu, and as regards to the new testament, so would a muslim and a jew, all of which can become masons!



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 09:34 PM
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Now what if you think the Bible was written by men that were possessed by demons (bear with me)?

They thought they were doing Gods will, they thought God was talking to them.

Maybe he was, but he made a mistake in saying he was the only God (the one who 'inspired' the writers of the Bible, their Muse), and thats why I don't believe all of the Bible, only parts.

So this would mean the Bible was written under influence of a Superior being, but not a Supreme being.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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Akilles

There are an awful lot of people out there with an awful lot of different views and opinions. Each one of them has to decide for themselves if they want to become a freemason and are eligible to do so.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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Well, I don't believe in calling something seemingly superior 'Supreme', OK, buddy.

Because of the varied interpretations and confusion over religion, this shows it was created by those wishing to seed chaos and confusion.

Now, you have to literally think in the terms the Bible lays out. They (demons) were looking to usurp his crown, take credit for his glory, and that is exactly what we see with the creation of (false, demon-inspired) Religions.

People need to think why those crazy fundamentalist Christians (from the colonial times and Dark Ages) were always going on about demons, not the devil, for.

It is interesting, to see what happens, when Humans are diverted from what they actually need to be careful of spiritually, they go into a slippery slope of comparing themselves to the next person, "I'm not as bad as THAT, I must be OK." thus allowing further indulgence in greed, lust, all manner of excess.

Alcohol, for example, is not the Devil. But it has a demon in it, that can consume you. I hope people see the fundamental difference in viewpoint, and why Christianity can be blamed for allowing the current state of events.



posted on Apr, 13 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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I've been following the Masonry threads because as already said, my father was a Freemason. Following his death, we were surrounded by love and support and help from his 'Brothers'.

I think the world has become skeptical about Masons because of the secrecy factor. This secrecy has created fantasism amongst the so called ignorant people (non-masons). My belief though, is that it is not ignorance as such....it is just a state of being uninformed (therefore concocting all sorts of theories on satanism blah blah). Humans are curious, and when the questions aren't answered, they create their own answers. Thats a fact provable in history in many arenas.

I know the secrecy of the Masons from years gone by. It used to be that no Masons could discuss any of their rituals etc. My father kept his briefcase stashed away and never spoke about the 'meetings' with us or even with his wife. People don't handle secrecy so well, hence the ill-feeling about Masonry in the general public at times, even still.

It is good to see Masons 'talking' opening about the beliefs and foundations of Masonry. It might help remove the stigma of occult surrounding the society as a whole.

Thanks for your info and honesty guys.

Cheers



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 12:06 PM
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IMO The "secret" knowledge, information, etc that
is attributed to Masonry is not nor has it been "secret" for many, many years.
What was once "secret" where things that had to be hidden from the church.
Science, Philosophy, medicine/healing,etc. One of the churches major "whines"
has always been the "masonic " championing of education not controled by
or influenced by the church or its priests. That school should be taught by
lay-people not priests.

[edit on 14-4-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Zoroastrianism is gradually introduced throughout the degrees, if you look in the index of Pike's Morals and Dogma you can see that it has 26 indexed links on the subject that span throughout the Rite.
However the 28th Degree is the "significant degree" which explicitly addresses the dual aspect of the deity.
The 28th degree is the most important degree of the Rite according to both Pike and McClenechan as well as just about every other author I have read.
It is an unusual degree in that looks completely out of place with any of the other series.
I'm still yet to get a full monitor of the work although I have a fairly verbose one from "that dutch site."



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
The boring truth is that freemasonry has no place on this forum. There's no secret society, no conspiracy and no ties with the so called Illuminati or NWO.

Well, masonry did have a more secretive phase in the past, tho any group that has neckties, rings, crested jackets, car bumper stickers, and big buildings identified as lodges isn't all that secret.

Most concern over secrecy stems from two aspects, one is the rituals, and that they containt secret 'esoteric/gnostic/relevatory' information, even direly important information. The other is that masons are made to take an oath to protect the group, and that whenever a mason says that there is nothing going on, that they are lying.

How did you interpret and understand the intiatory oath to stand, or any sort of 'binding' to stand? I mean, obviously you don't expect to get your throat slit for saying something, and most masons here have said that, over any oath, the ideals and practices of the group require them to be lawful citizens.
Its almost silly, and somewhat insulting, to even ask a mason if they're report a murder/cover-up, or tax-fraud or anything, but I think that most of that stems from this intitial binding ceremony.


akilles
That Freemasonry('s founder) basically started Science without the belief of God goes unmentioned, of course.

HUh?


Well, I don't believe in calling something seemingly superior 'Supreme', OK, buddy.

I think that what they mean is do you beleive in a supreme being, not 'is your religion true'. I mean, with your demonic example above, the beleiver isn't beleiving in anything other than what the bible states, even if its demon inspired lies. They're not beleiving in a demon, they are beleiving in the 'fictional' god reprsented in it, which is a supreme god.


mrnecros
It is an unusual degree in that looks completely out of place with any of the other series.

How so?



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Most concern over secrecy stems from two aspects, one is the rituals, and that they containt secret 'esoteric/gnostic/relevatory' information, even direly important information. The other is that masons are made to take an oath to protect the group, and that whenever a mason says that there is nothing going on, that they are lying.

How did you interpret and understand the intiatory oath to stand, or any sort of 'binding' to stand? I mean, obviously you don't expect to get your throat slit for saying something, and most masons here have said that, over any oath, the ideals and practices of the group require them to be lawful citizens.
Its almost silly, and somewhat insulting, to even ask a mason if they're report a murder/cover-up, or tax-fraud or anything, but I think that most of that stems from this intitial binding ceremony.


You are absolutely right, but what people don't understand is that we are SPECIFICALLY TOLD that the oath we are about to take is symbolic, and that it will not interfere with our duty to God, ourselves, our neighbors and our country. ANYONE can read this in the ritual exposes!

I think that anyone who has that misunderstanding even AFTER reading this in the ritual, simply WANTS it to be true. They WANT masons to be perceived as having to lie and having to misinform. But the facts are unmistakeable if you take the time to research them.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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I'd say Freemasonry is more secretive now than it has ever been.
I know several hundred Freemasons and NONE of them publically admit it, including family members.

How is the 28th degree "out of place"?

Have a look at it:
28th Degree: Knight of the Sun



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
I'd say Freemasonry is more secretive now than it has ever been.
I know several hundred Freemasons and NONE of them publically admit it, including family members.


BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT REALLY MASONS!!!!!!!!!!! You only THINK they are. Stop being so damn paranoid!!!

Contrary to your beliefs, Necros, masons are not ashamed of their affiliation. They are proud of masonry and, given the chance, most will talk about it with anyone. You're absolutely delirious and are suffering from feelings of persecution. Why are you letting these beliefs you have of Freemasonry ruin your life??? Nothing that you believe is true. Why are you so obsessed with Freemasons? I've told you before: Get Help.

Masonry is more open than it's ever been. Masons are speaking out everywhere, talking to people about their misconceptions and all the lies that have been told. Masons are sick and tired of the accusations and the lies, and they're ready to set the record straight.


[edit on 14-4-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Well, masonry did have a more secretive phase in the past, tho any group that has neckties, rings, crested jackets, car bumper stickers, and big buildings identified as lodges isn't all that secret.


Yes indeed it did, in the quite recent past in fact. In Europe Hitler interned hundreds of thousands of freemasons in concentration camps and many were killed. I guess he didn't like what we stood for. Unsurprising in that environment freemasonry went underground. After the war, certainly in the UK, we stayed there. Far too long in my opinion. But that's what happened.


Most concern over secrecy stems from two aspects, one is the rituals, and that they containt secret 'esoteric/gnostic/relevatory' information, even direly important information.


Yes, I can understand how people might think this. There is quite wonderful information and knowledge in the ritual, but an individual almost has to 'extract' it rather than be 'told' it. The lessons of freemasonry are not always obvious and are sometimes different to different people depending on their viewpoint. Also, this information is available elsewhere to those who are prepared to go looking.


The other is that masons are made to take an oath to protect the group, and that whenever a mason says that there is nothing going on, that they are lying.

A freemason takes an obligation not to reveal the secrets of the degree. The secrets referred to are the methods of recognition by which one freemason may know another. This is the only promise made, and I don't think it can be repeated enough times due to the misapprehensions out there. No promise is made to protect the group. We are encouraged to assist other masons as long as it doesn't interfere with our work, our family, our religion, break the law, break the 'moral' law, or compromise us in any way whatsoever. But then we are equally encouraged to assist non-masons as well.


How did you interpret and understand the intiatory oath to stand, or any sort of 'binding' to stand? I mean, obviously you don't expect to get your throat slit for saying something, and most masons here have said that, over any oath, the ideals and practices of the group require them to be lawful citizens.

Luckily I didn't need to interpret that part of the ritual as it was spelled out to me in no uncertain terms. After running through the 'traditional penalties', I was told (and I quote) "The inclusion of such a penalty is unnecessary, for the Obligation you have taken this evening is binding on you for so long as you shall live". In other words, the penalty isn't included and therefore I had nothing to worry about.

As I've mentioned before, the traditional penalties, like a lot of the ritual, were symbolic. The real penalty is to be branded a "willfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth".


Its almost silly, and somewhat insulting, to even ask a mason if they're report a murder/cover-up, or tax-fraud or anything, but I think that most of that stems from this intitial binding ceremony.

It stems from the mis-quoting of the ceremony. Or deliberate lies, take your pick.

Try this further quote from the 'Charge to the Initiate' in the first degree. "As a citizen of the world, I am to enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties, by never proposing or at all countenancing any act that may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of society, by paying due obedience to the laws of any State which may for a time become the place of your residence or afford you its protection...". In other words, DON'T BREAK THE LAW. SUPPORT THE LAW.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by MrExplodingToilet
I'd say Freemasonry is more secretive now than it has ever been.

What - you think there are now fewer freemasons posting on the web disproving your lies? You're just annoyed because the easy target that never bit back has started to defend itself, and it's becoming increasingly clear to everyone that you and your fantasies are just that - fantasies.


I know several hundred Freemasons and NONE of them publically admit it, including family members.

So how do you know they're freemasons then? And at several hundred you may know more than me



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by MrExplodingToilet
I'd say Freemasonry is more secretive now than it has ever been.

What - you think there are now fewer freemasons posting on the web disproving your lies? You're just annoyed because the easy target that never bit back has started to defend itself, and it's becoming increasingly clear to everyone that you and your fantasies are just that - fantasies.


I know several hundred Freemasons and NONE of them publically admit it, including family members.

So how do you know they're freemasons then? And at several hundred you may know more than me


Sorry as much as I'd like to take credit for these "lies" I'm afraid Albert Pike & Charles T McClenechan would have to take the full credit seeing it is their work that I'm posting.

"biting back" ? In your dreams pal - your moth eaten mob can't even get a simple doping/kidnapping right over here, like as if I was ever actually going to get into a stranger's car up in Ranong last month?



Congrats go out to Lodge Patong (ummm anyone care to tell me if these guys are "irregular" or not?) for cutting through my speedo cable week before last and causing me the greatest inconvenience ever of errrr...90 baht ( 2 quid) for a new cable.
Seriously - is this the best can come up with?

Hey, I might even just take a quick holiday back in the UK so you can have a fighting chance.

Three years on and it's still;
MrNECROS: 0
The Legions of Cowardly Mind Controlled Zealots: 0



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
28th Degree: Knight of the Sun

Thanks for the resource, I'll look it over.

However, I had to say that my knowledge of freemasonry, especially in terms of the rituals, is practically non-existant. So i can't compare this to any other rituals.



posted on Apr, 14 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
"biting back" ? In your dreams pal - your moth eaten mob can't even get a simple doping/kidnapping right over here, like as if I was ever actually going to get into a stranger's car up in Ranong last month?

Congrats go out to Lodge Patong (ummm anyone care to tell me if these guys are "irregular" or not?) for cutting through my speedo cable week before last and causing me the greatest inconvenience ever of errrr...90 baht ( 2 quid) for a new cable.
Seriously - is this the best can come up with?

Hey, I might even just take a quick holiday back in the UK so you can have a fighting chance.

Three years on and it's still;
MrNECROS: 0
The Legions of Cowardly Mind Controlled Zealots: 0


YOUR ARE ABSOLUTELY OUT OF YOUR MIND. You need help, and I truly hope you get it.


[edit on 14-4-2005 by sebatwerk]




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