can india make decent fighter

read whole thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

this is one of the (mod edit to remove inappropriate word from post )aircraft ever made

the LCA is a joke the aircraft is a upgraded and smaller mirage 2000 fitted with imported avonics.

they think the lca is goin to be stealth because it is smaller.

last time i check the airframe is out of date and doesn't have any right angles or RAM

india is better off buying more russian equipment than making their own aircraft. more bang for the buck if i may say

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by pantha]

I think the LCA is more of a learning experience for Indian aircraft designers and also for supplementing the heavier hitters like the Su-30MKI

According to this website its not only the planes that are plauging the indian air force with problems but the lack of flight trainers.



IAF Accidents: A Report

The most quoted reason for aircraft accidents in the Indian Air Forces is the absence of Advanced Jet Trainers. It is a valid point but to blame the increasing number of accidents on one factor would be grossly misleading.

One of the factors that often go unnoticed is the poor quality of training and training institutions in the Indian Air Force. Although the air force keeps the reports of various accident inquiry committees secret, it is not a secret that that almost all the inquiries have pointed out deficiencies in the training of pilots as one of the primary reasons for accidents.

(mod edit to reduce copy paste post, please check link for the rest of the report)


I managed to get a picture of their current Air Combant Trainer Program....



As you can clearly see they still using the classic Nintendo Game "Top Gun" to train their superior pilots. ....lol

[edit on 02/03/05 by Grey Fox]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by pantha]

Originally posted by chinawhite

the LCA is a joke the aircraft is a upgraded and smaller mirage 2000 fitted with imported avonics.

And there in a nutshell is why anyone with a brain need not respond to this thread

[edit on 11-4-2005 by waynos]

Chinawhite.. I hearby inform you of the backlash that this thread of yours will receive from all indian as well as neutral posters...
Im a bit busy to reply now but ..
MY MY HAVE YOU OPENED A PANDORA's BOX!!!
Prepare yourself..

Originally posted by Grey Fox
According to this website its not only the planes that are plauging the indian air force with problems but the lack of flight trainers.



IAF Accidents: A Report

The most quoted reason for aircraft accidents in the Indian Air Forces is the absence of Advanced Jet Trainers. It is a valid point but to blame the increasing number of accidents on one factor would be grossly misleading.

One of the factors that often go unnoticed is the poor quality of training and training institutions in the Indian Air Force. Although the air force keeps the reports of various accident inquiry committees secret, it is not a secret that that almost all the inquiries have pointed out deficiencies in the training of pilots as one of the primary reasons for accidents.
(mod edit to reduce copy paste post, please check link for the rest of the report)
I managed to get a picture of their current Air Combant Trainer Program....
As you can clearly see they still using the classic Nintendo Game "Top Gun" to train their superior pilots. ....lol

[edit on 02/03/05 by Grey Fox]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by pantha]

Thats the PBAT test you twit and if you half a brain you'd realise that you don't need jazz and razzamatazz in such programs because they're a test of hand-eye coordination nothing else...
All prospective pilots must pass the PBAT (pilot battery aptitude test) to have a chance of becoming a F/P..
If you fail the PBAT then thats it... you can never fly a jet with the InAF or give the test again even..
Anyhow I egaer to know how you got that pic...a source would be nice..

On a separate note , yes there is a training deficiency in the InAF for CONVERSION from sub/transonic trainers to th esupersonic MiG21s which constitute 40% of the squadron strength..i.e, all IAF F/Ps have to fly the MiG 21 at some stage or the other..
also maintenance and aircraft overhaul standards have dropped in the last decade or so..

And since im posting on this thred why not take another potshot at chinawhite

Have YOU read the LCA thread completely ??..Because it seems that you've overlooked the fact that it had more pro-LCA comments than otherwise..

most of the pro lca comments were posted by stealth spy

nope...
they were from and i quote

"optimus fett, hyperen,craigandrew, DEADSTEVE, howlrunnerIV, waynos,groingrinder,Alanjones,netscape"

And negative comments were from:

W4rlrd,COWlan,Chintea,supertran,engineer

why someone says it looks nice it doesn't mean they like it. nearly all the people said the plane looked "sleek" because it looks lik it just came out of 1960 lost in sapce movie

the only guys that said it was 4gen aircraft was stealthy spy. low imported tech plane . when i started the thread it mean capablities not if it was a toy and a five year old would buy it

[edit on 11-4-2005 by chinawhite]

well its great if you can perceive what people mean from what they say..
Sleek "means" --> 1960s lost in space
And for taht matter only a cpl of guys said that..
REad what Alan Jones said..
He knows his stuff..He's working on USAF UCAVs..
c'mon man who you trying to kid??
And the LCA ain't a toy... Its got all the snazz one can pack into a nest little fighter like that..
Capabilities you'd be well versed with if you actually READ any of stealth spy 's informative posts..(read beyond kaveri failures..try at least!! )
India's trying to develop its own engine and the failures are well catalogued because we have something called "FREE MEDIA".. something China is lacking..
Hell even if the J-10 is having MAJOR problems and even if say 15 aircraft have been lost in testing, no one would get a whiff of it, because of the govt. would clamp down on it..
Besides develop your own indigenous engine under the scrutiny of a free media and then see how far you get..
Infact the only incident that the PLAAF has to its international image credit is the one where that pilot was unable to buzz the EP3 properly, and ending up banging into the damn aircraft instead..How did the chinese press/media/govt. handle that one??
They made that guy int oa "matyr".. puhhleassee!!
I've said this before and am fed up of saying it everytime some weirdo chinese guy ( mostly non resident chinese) comes and bashes the InAF/LCA for its shortcomings..
The LCA DOES have a smaller radar signature because of its size and composite materials ( note: not RAM) fuselage..although it was not intended to be stealthy..

Infact the LCA may pack more of a punch than your beloved J-10, but I won't venture and say that since the LCA hasn't been inducted and the J-10 will NOT take part in any AF exercises in the near future...

Thats a real pity because besides printing/publicsing loads of jazz on the aircraft one must be able to judge its practical capabilities via mock combat..
At least a showing in an international airshow would do much to further that cause..
Esp. if the chinese want to market it at the international level...

That will not be tha case with the LCA I can assure you..

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by chinawhite
read whole thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

this is one of the (mod edit to remove inappropriate word from post )aircraft ever made

the LCA is a joke the aircraft is a upgraded and smaller mirage 2000 fitted with imported avonics.

they think the lca is goin to be stealth because it is smaller.

last time i check the airframe is out of date and doesn't have any right angles or RAM

india is better off buying more russian equipment than making their own aircraft. more bang for the buck if i may say

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by pantha]

look like pakis defence site poster come to abovetopsecret

better go to your site baby you better there and dont make mockery

make point why and how

Originally posted by Daedalus3
well its great if you can perceive what people mean from what they say..
Sleek "means" --> 1960s lost in space
And for taht matter only a cpl of guys said that..
REad what Alan Jones said..
He knows his stuff..He's working on USAF UCAVs..
c'mon man who you trying to kid??
And the LCA ain't a toy... Its got all the snazz one can pack into a nest little fighter like that..
Capabilities you'd be well versed with if you actually READ any of stealth spy 's informative posts..(read beyond kaveri failures..try at least!!

)
India's trying to develop its own engine and the failures are well catalogued because we have something called "FREE MEDIA".. something China is lacking..
Hell even if the J-10 is having MAJOR problems and even if say 15 aircraft have been lost in testing, no one would get a whiff of it, because of the govt. would clamp down on it..
Besides develop your own indigenous engine under the scrutiny of a free media and then see how far you get..
Infact the only incident that the PLAAF has to its international image credit is the one where that pilot was unable to buzz the EP3 properly, and ending up banging into the damn aircraft instead..How did the chinese press/media/govt. handle that one??
They made that guy int oa "matyr"..

puhhleassee!!
I've said this before and am fed up of saying it everytime some weirdo chinese guy ( mostly non resident chinese) comes and bashes the InAF/LCA for its shortcomings..
The LCA DOES have a smaller radar signature because of its size and composite materials ( note: not RAM) fuselage..although it was not intended to be stealthy..

Infact the LCA may pack more of a punch than your beloved J-10, but I won't venture and say that since the LCA hasn't been inducted and the J-10 will NOT take part in any AF exercises in the near future...

Thats a real pity because besides printing/publicsing loads of jazz on the aircraft one must be able to judge its practical capabilities via mock combat..
At least a showing in an international airshow would do much to further that cause..
Esp. if the chinese want to market it at the international level...

That will not be tha case with the LCA I can assure you..

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

15 aircraft crash wtf china only made 8 prototypes and only one had a engine malfuncution. and LCA pack a punch u must be kidding.

umm... and alan jones he siad he was in some secret plane thing(UCAV) but could you believe that #. yeah im george bush. im and i can tell his lying

what cred does the indian airforce have. dismall showing in 65 and 71 or indian aircraft better than usa in friendly competitions. It all a Scheme to get more f-22s. the aircraft that were in the friendly competition were using the best india had and werent selected from normal fighter squadons. Think why america has the best airforce. its not because indian pliots are better thats for sure

About the international airshow we have our own its called Zhuhai international airshow.

stealth has more to do with airplane shape than size .

j-10 has super cruise and RAM paint its say on the advertising at Zhuhai airshow (someone posted a pic of it).

And the issue about chinese aircraft crashing into the EP3 china held US pliots
until US apologized. i might be wrong but didn't p-3 crash into the fighter. the p-3 is huge compared to fighter

And when the LCA is projected to be in service by 2010-2015 it will have already been obsolete

So what if china doesn't put in media how well its fighter project is going. last time i checked media,people wont allouded into area 51. the only reason india puts their aircraft project in media is because they know its obsolete

Any information form sinodefence.com is not offical its info they get off other sites(not to sure it ifs run by chinese). And most of the information in websites from non chinese sites are speculation there not facts just what they can picture from pictures. its called media clamped very handy

buddy

[edit on 12-4-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by mirza2003

Originally posted by chinawhite
read whole thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

this is one of the (mod edit to remove inappropriate word from post )aircraft ever made

the LCA is a joke the aircraft is a upgraded and smaller mirage 2000 fitted with imported avonics.

they think the lca is goin to be stealth because it is smaller.

last time i check the airframe is out of date and doesn't have any right angles or RAM

india is better off buying more russian equipment than making their own aircraft. more bang for the buck if i may say

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by pantha]

look like pakis defence site poster come to abovetopsecret

better go to your site baby you better there and dont make mockery

make point why and how

i did make a point its going to be obsolete .airframe is out of date and doesn't have any right angles or RAM . no supercruise. no stealth. bad from strike aircraft because of deadilness of SAMs ground fire etc.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Chinawhite.. I hearby inform you of the backlash that this thread of yours will receive from all indian as well as neutral posters...
Im a bit busy to reply now but ..
MY MY HAVE YOU OPENED A PANDORA's BOX!!!
Prepare yourself..

opened PANDORA's BOX lol im scared
all that will happen is all these indians sharing their diagrams and pictures articles from patriotic indian sites blah blah.

Hey Chinawhite

Why not try posting your bogus claims and assorted chest-thumping in the LCA thread itself, rather than hide in another forum and rant and rave about the contents of the thread?

Perhaps because you know your claims are absolute BS and are afraid of actual rational discussion (debunking) of the same?

I cordially invite you to post in the LCA thread. Your username/pass should work in ATS as well.


If you are too scared to stand behind your words or worried that all your hot air will be shown for what it is, then, fear not Comrade! I will take the liberty to cross post each and every one of your claims, duely attributed to you, and debunk them in a couple days in any case!

- Raj

no can't do it on ATS.. they won't stand for such banter..
found this thread finally..
I'm sorry if I scared you chinawhite..Didn't mean to..I thought we were over this.. but Im always up for a healthy arguement..

Firstly stealth involves the LACK of right angles not the abundance of there in..
common sense..
Secondly the LCA has a composite materials fuselage not RAM.. I clarified that in my prev post..
Stealth as everything to do with only one thing..reducing the aircrafts radar signature...whether its size or structure or acombination of both..
Hell if it were only structure( and not size) then one could make the B-52 stealthy.!!
So take that hammer and whck on your own head..
We could go on arguing for ages about whether the LCA has a low RCS or not.. but if you're not open to logic then it a dead end..
And how do I see that you're not open to logic you may ask?
Because you say that "Alan jones is lying".. that unfortunately puts everyone's credibility at stake..yours mine and every other ATS member..
We tend to assume that all members post the truth,
Infact if I were to say the I am an electronics and telecom engg. student (graduate in july 05) who has had 'radar' as semester course and has compared the signatures of an LCA to that of a F-16 and MiG-29, you'd probably say Im lying..:shk:
Only twice have I heard this "he's lying" accusation on ATS.. once from proteinx (who has some negative 2400 ATS opints to his credit and is shunned by his own fellow chinese ATS members) and second is you..
I'm sorry if you feel Alan Jones is lying..maybe you can take it up with him..I wonder what motive would an american have for lying on the behalf of an Indian..
Oh no wait!! Maybe he's an indian disguised as an american on ATS!! :shk:

I use d the figure 15 not as a exact source quoted figure but as a figure of speech.. mainly trying to highlight the fact that the chinese govt. will clamp down on any failures or twist them to seem positive..Its just how communist govts behave..
Infact the Shenzhou(Long March 4) launch wasn't telecast live for fear the the "motherland" may be disgraced if anything were to go wrong on live TV!!
You may check the threads on the ATS aircraft forum which involve the PLAAF hunting for aircraft like the Grippen and Mirage 2000..
They highlight the same theory.. The J-10's not upto the mark so the PLAAF's only built 50 of them..The remaining they hope to purchase in the form of grippens or Mirage 2000s
The IAF had a dismal showing in the 65 war.. I've said that myself..
But 71 was anything but a dismal showing..
Go to acig.org and you can confirm the figures for yourself..

Again the arguement that the Cope India exercise was a ploy to fool the US congress into passing the bill for more F-22s is also flawed..
Some ATS american posters said so themselves..
The USAF has enough F-22 to fit the role the F-22s were meant for..
Deep strike and air superiority..
Besides as I've said before "we" shouldn't think ourselves to be smarter than the US congress to be able to see through a ploy that the congress would be blind to..
"we" give ourselves too much credit.. Its not some kids club we're talking about..Its the US bl00dy Congress!!
And about the IAF only displaying their best pilots while the USAF fielding avg. ones.. can I ask you the reason you say that?? Do you have a credible source?
Or no wait .. Its you're unfaltering intuition that tells you so!!
The same intuition that tells you Alan jones is lying!!
That Zhuhai airshow.. never heard of it.. Did the J-10 fly in it or was it only a static airshow..
Which countires/companies visited??..I'd like some info..
And about that post saying that the J-10 has RAM/supercruise...
I remember it.. and I also remember someone debunking tht claim..
If you could give me a link to that thread we could have it all sorted out..

About the p-3 crashing into the PLAAF jet.. YES YOU WRONG!!
Again do a google on the aircraft forum for this incident.. you'll find many smirks and riling commments on that pilot..
of course the US apologised.. they were the ones spying in the first plae and the chinese were holding their pilots as a ransom for that apology..

What I was talking about in terms of media freedom was flight safety records and aircraft development.. You're Area 51 arguement is flawed..
The J-10 is NOT a secret project..
Projects at Area-51 are secret..
Hell that recent F-22 crash?.. It was all over the Us media..And the F-22 is way more advanced than the J-10..so don't try and compare the Chinese media clamp down to the american equivalent...
THe USAF allows aircrafts way more advanced than the J-10 to scrutinised by the media..Its for popularising their aircraft in international markets..
They don't popularise stuff they don't intend to sell to anyone..

and this statement was soo devoid of grammatics that I couldn't make head nor tail of it..so please clarify..

Any information form sinodefence.com is not offical its info they get off other sites(not to sure it ifs run by chinese). And most of the information in websites from non chinese sites are speculation there not facts just what they can picture from pictures. its called media clamped very handy

finally the LCA will be inducted in 2007.. no later..Where did you get dates like 2010-2015??!!
No wait let me guess!! its your impeccable intuition at work again


I think I've refuted all the claims you made in your prev post.. Your turn now..

And Raj this was posted on ATS but the mods wouldn't have any of this childish banter so they shifted it here..

[edit on 14-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Hey Chinawhite

Why not try posting your bogus claims and assorted chest-thumping in the LCA thread itself, rather than hide in another forum and rant and rave about the contents of the thread?

Perhaps because you know your claims are absolute BS and are afraid of actual rational discussion (debunking) of the same?

I cordially invite you to post in the LCA thread. Your username/pass should work in ATS as well.


If you are too scared to stand behind your words or worried that all your hot air will be shown for what it is, then, fear not Comrade! I will take the liberty to cross post each and every one of your claims, duely attributed to you, and debunk them in a couple days in any case!

- Raj

i did post this thread in ats they moved it here

Originally posted by Daedalus3
no can't do it on ATS.. they won't stand for such banter..
found this thread finally..
I'm sorry if I scared you chinawhite..Didn't mean to..I thought we were over this.. but Im always up for a healthy arguement..

Firstly stealth involves the LACK of right angles not the abundance of there in..
common sense..
Secondly the LCA has a composite materials fuselage not RAM.. I clarified that in my prev post..
Stealth as everything to do with only one thing..reducing the aircrafts radar signature...whether its size or structure or acombination of both..
Hell if it were only structure( and not size) then one could make the B-52 stealthy.!!
So take that hammer and whck on your own head..
We could go on arguing for ages about whether the LCA has a low RCS or not.. but if you're not open to logic then it a dead end..
And how do I see that you're not open to logic you may ask?
Because you say that "Alan jones is lying".. that unfortunately puts everyone's credibility at stake..yours mine and every other ATS member..
We tend to assume that all members post the truth,
Infact if I were to say the I am an electronics and telecom engg. student (graduate in july 05) who has had 'radar' as semester course and has compared the signatures of an LCA to that of a F-16 and MiG-29, you'd probably say Im lying..:shk:
Only twice have I heard this "he's lying" accusation on ATS.. once from proteinx (who has some negative 2400 ATS opints to his credit and is shunned by his own fellow chinese ATS members) and second is you..
I'm sorry if you feel Alan Jones is lying..maybe you can take it up with him..I wonder what motive would an american have for lying on the behalf of an Indian..
Oh no wait!! Maybe he's an indian disguised as an american on ATS!! :shk:

I use d the figure 15 not as a exact source quoted figure but as a figure of speech.. mainly trying to highlight the fact that the chinese govt. will clamp down on any failures or twist them to seem positive..Its just how communist govts behave..
Infact the Shenzhou(Long March 4) launch wasn't telecast live for fear the the "motherland" may be disgraced if anything were to go wrong on live TV!!

You may check the threads on the ATS aircraft forum which involve the PLAAF hunting for aircraft like the Grippen and Mirage 2000..
They highlight the same theory.. The J-10's not upto the mark so the PLAAF's only built 50 of them..The remaining they hope to purchase in the form of grippens or Mirage 2000s
The IAF had a dismal showing in the 65 war.. I've said that myself..
But 71 was anything but a dismal showing..
Go to acig.org and you can confirm the figures for yourself..

Again the arguement that the Cope India exercise was a ploy to fool the US congress into passing the bill for more F-22s is also flawed..
Some ATS american posters said so themselves..
The USAF has enough F-22 to fit the role the F-22s were meant for..
Deep strike and air superiority..
Besides as I've said before "we" shouldn't think ourselves to be smarter than the US congress to be able to see through a ploy that the congress would be blind to..
"we" give ourselves too much credit.. Its not some kids club we're talking about..Its the US bl00dy Congress!!

And about the IAF only displaying their best pilots while the USAF fielding avg. ones.. can I ask you the reason you say that?? Do you have a credible source?
Or no wait .. Its you're unfaltering intuition that tells you so!!
The same intuition that tells you Alan jones is lying!!

That Zhuhai airshow.. never heard of it.. Did the J-10 fly in it or was it only a static airshow..
Which countires/companies visited??..I'd like some info..
And about that post saying that the J-10 has RAM/supercruise...
I remember it.. and I also remember someone debunking tht claim..
If you could give me a link to that thread we could have it all sorted out..

About the p-3 crashing into the PLAAF jet.. YES YOU WRONG!!
Again do a google on the aircraft forum for this incident.. you'll find many smirks and riling commments on that pilot..
of course the US apologised.. they were the ones spying in the first plae and the chinese were holding their pilots as a ransom for that apology..

What I was talking about in terms of media freedom was flight safety records and aircraft development.. You're Area 51 arguement is flawed..
The J-10 is NOT a secret project..
Projects at Area-51 are secret..
Hell that recent F-22 crash?.. It was all over the Us media..And the F-22 is way more advanced than the J-10..so don't try and compare the Chinese media clamp down to the american equivalent...
THe USAF allows aircrafts way more advanced than the J-10 to scrutinised by the media..Its for popularising their aircraft in international markets..
They don't popularise stuff they don't intend to sell to anyone..

and this statement was soo devoid of grammatics that I couldn't make head nor tail of it..so please clarify..

Any information form sinodefence.com is not offical its info they get off other sites(not to sure it ifs run by chinese). And most of the information in websites from non chinese sites are speculation there not facts just what they can picture from pictures. its called media clamped very handy

finally the LCA will be inducted in 2007.. no later..Where did you get dates like 2010-2015??!!

No wait let me guess!! its your impeccable intuition at work again

I think I've refuted all the claims you made in your prev post.. Your turn now..

And Raj this was posted on ATS but the mods wouldn't have any of this childish banter so they shifted it here..

[edit on 14-4-2005 by Daedalus3]

air combat between india and pakistan

pakistan 25 india 19

also pakistan were mainly using f-86 planes(old ass) againest modern mig-21

the compostie materials in the LCA are to keep the weight down because the engine cant handle the pressure

also they dont want to buy the mirage they just went there to check it out.

there not just building 50 j-10s 50 this year. and alo every military program in china is secret

any link on f-22 crash

also the Shenzhou was teleivised live it was just announced 1 week before it happened.

also size doesn't play an important part in how stealthy the aircraft is. look at the b2 its huge.

ur right the Lca has about the same RCS as a f-16 but so what i just said it didn't have the RCS to make it a stealth plane.

as for the deburkin claim it was westpoint he deburks anything unamerican. but i dunno where the link is gone.

also u cant judge anything about the j-10 no one knows anything about it . etc where its deployed wat marking not even what radar or engine

also the mirage and gripen

also the mirage 2000-9 is not a multi-role fighter its a strike aircraft. we already have a very capable aircraft is called su-30mkk. this information is from a taiwanese newspaper.

When you post your information give a link or some shiet like that.
If you want link from me just ask.

china is a very free counrty. statements like this

I use d the figure 15 not as a exact source quoted figure but as a figure of speech.. mainly trying to highlight the fact that the chinese govt. will clamp down on any failures or twist them to seem positive..Its just how communist govts behave..

comes from someone that has never been to china or reads a time magazine. you'vre never been there dont comment on china polictial system.

Also like me clarify that tiannamen square was a nessary. it was 1989 and china only begun reforms in 1979 the country was spilt between pro market forces and pro communist forces. if we didn't crack down on the students china would of haved a civil war. (trust me) i was born in 1989 july 2 my dad escaped china on the same year i am living in australia and lived in china from 1995-1997. i experience first hand chinese life (also because im chinese).
the communist system is the right government for china. we had a weak goverment in the years 1926-1949 it was very chaotic because chinese need a strong goverment to keep clam. look at the history of china everytime it was in chaos it had a weak government.

Also this a about indian making a good aircraft not polictial systems








[edit on 15-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Hey Chinawhite

Why not try posting your bogus claims and assorted chest-thumping in the LCA thread itself, rather than hide in another forum and rant and rave about the contents of the thread?

Perhaps because you know your claims are absolute BS and are afraid of actual rational discussion (debunking) of the same?

I cordially invite you to post in the LCA thread. Your username/pass should work in ATS as well.


If you are too scared to stand behind your words or worried that all your hot air will be shown for what it is, then, fear not Comrade! I will take the liberty to cross post each and every one of your claims, duely attributed to you, and debunk them in a couple days in any case!

- Raj

state wat bogus claims i have and also i dont post my opinions in a thread that starts with LCA and beatiful