indian aircraft are all pathetic imports

Stealth Spy "dont throw rocks if you are live in a glass house"

this is a reply to the thread you started about "All chinese aircrafts are pathetic copies"

india cant even reverse engineer a aircraft let alone build an Indigenous aircraft like the j-10.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
All aircrafts made by china so far are pathetic copies. Here's a list of all of China's aircrafts:

1. J-7 Interceptor Fighter Aircraft
copy of the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21F-13


2. J-7C Interceptor Fighter Aircraft
made by reverse engineering of the Soviet/Rusian Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21MF


3. J-7E Interceptor Fighter Aircraft
aircraft is based on the airframe of the J-7/MiG-21 Fishebed, but with improved aerodynamics performance and avionics from the Mig-29(purchased from russia).


4. J-8 Interceptor Fighter Aircraft
borrowed lots of designs from the Mikoyan-Gurevich Ye-152A experimental aeroplane about which the Chinese had received data in the late 1950s.

5. J-8B/D Interceptor Fighter Aircraft
J-8 with larger fire-control radar and various other avionics equipment.
Some parts were taken from the or Sukhoi Su-15 Flagon.

During their temporary coalition in the 1980s, China and the USA reached an agreement of upgrading the J-8B fighter with modern avionics. As part of the "Peace Pearl" Project, in 1986 the George Bush (senior) administration approved to sell 52 sets of US-made APG-66 fire-control radar together with other avionics worth US$200 million in total to China to upgrade her J-8B fleet. Grumman (now Northrop Grumman) was chosen to co-operate with the SAC in this project. However, this project was halted after June 1989 and then completely terminated in 1990.

Following the end of the Cold War, China turned to Russia for helps to upgrade the J-8B fighter. In 1996 SAC revealed its F-8IIM fighter, which is fitted with the Russian Phazotron Zhuk-8II coherent pulse Doppler radar and R-27R1 (AA-10 Alamo-A) semi-active radar homing medium-range AAM, the F-8IIM is the most capable variant of the J-8B series. Its domestic variant is said to be the J-8C (or J-8III).


6. J-10 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

Essentially copied from Israel's LAVI aircraft programme and made by reverse engineering a Pakistani F-16A.

Collaboration between China and Israel on fighter technology began in the early 1980's and full-scale co-operation was underway by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi programme, its design was taken over by CAC, and IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.


It is powered by Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan, the same power plant also being used by Chinese air force Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30s.

Radar :Russian Phazotron Zhuk-10PD, a version of the system in later Su-27s, with 160 km search range and ability to track up to six targets. Israel has offered its Elta EL/M-2035 radar for competition.

Cockpit parts : basic Ukrainian Arsenel HMS copied by China's Luoyang Avionics

Weapons :J-10 could also carry Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11) short-range and R-77 (AA-12) medium-range missiles equipped by Chinese Flankers


9. FC-1/JF-17 Multirole Fighter Aircraft
upgraded Mig-21 they try to sell to Pakistan

firstly the j-7 is a chinese aircraft based on the mig-21 it wans't built with kits lik indian aircraft it was reversed engineered and uses "ALL" chinese components.

the j-8 might look like the Mikoyan-Gurevich Ye-152A but the shiet-box indian lca looks like the french mirage. here is some information about j-8

The J-8 was originally developed on the basis of the single-engine Chengdu J-7 with an enlarged airframe to accommodate two turbojet engines to achieve better aerodynamic performance and range. Considering the limited capability of the Chinese aviation industry, the J-8 designers decided that the design target should be achieved via two steps. In the first stage, the aircraft would inherit the J-7’s nose air inlet with a centre-body design. In the second stage, the aircraft would have a solid nose with a pair of lateral air inlets similar to most of modern fighter aircraft.

this information is from www.sinodefence.com
give a source the states j-8 is a copy of Mikoyan-Gurevich Ye-152A
the aircraft was designed in china with no outside help so it is Indigenous

the j-10 is also a Indigenous chinese aircraft it uses russian engine but the rest is chinese.

The J-10 fighter was developed in the early 1980s as a counter to the Soviet Union’s emerging fourth-generation fighters such as the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker. The original requirement was air superiority, but the break-up of the Soviet Union and changing requirements shifted development towards a high-performance multirole fighter aircraft to replace the ageing J-6s and J-7s that are the backbone of China’s air force. The J-10 is based on the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)’s Lavi fighter. After the Lavi programme was cancelled in 1987, its design was taken over by CAC, and IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

source sinodefence.com

the j-10 is based on the israelie airframe with a little influnce from the f-16. (give source the states that china was going to build lavi it only says that china got the desings for lavi to help with the development of j-10). china could never have built the lavi because the lavi was unfinished project and nearly all the components would have came from the usa. stealthspy dont quote speculations.

fc-1

as for the fc-1 it is a different aircraft than the mig-21. the super7 program started off as a upgrade package. but after tiannamen square the americans pulled out then CAC took over the design and finished it. the fc-1 is not ment to be the worls best aircraft its ment for the export market as a low cost potential replacement for the second-generation fighters such as the Northrop F-5 Tiger, Dassault Mirage III/5, Shenyang J-6, MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed, and Nanchang Q-5 aircraft.

from sindefence about fc-1

DESIGN

The FC-1/Super-7 was originally defined as a low-cost third-generation air-superiority fighter aircraft to replace the MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed and Northrop F-5 series in service with many developing countries. With the participation of MASPG, the aircraft was re-branded as a lightweight, high-performance, multirole attack fighter aircraft featuring fly-by-wire (FBW) flight-control, beyond-vision-range (BVR) combat capability and much improved aerodynamic performance. These has also steered the unit price of the aircraft up by 50%, from the original US$10 million to US$15 million.

The aircraft has delta wings and a conventional tail, and might be capable of aerial refuelling without significant modifications. The aircraft can be tailored to meet the different customers with various operational and budgetary requirements—from low-cost options fitted with Chinese indigenously designed avionics to higher-performance options incorporated with Western developed weapons and avionics.

As you can see none of the aircraft are copies except the legally made j5 and j6 aircraft

(i dont mean their crap planes but their all imported planes)

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 10-4-2005 by chinawhite]

You will never win with the argument you have posted. The J-10 is based in part off the Lavi fighter which is a modification of the F-16. Also, China got an F-16 from Pakistan.

Imports, yes. Pathetic...not if they buy some US planes.

Originally posted by jetsetter
You will never win with the argument you have posted. The J-10 is based in part off the Lavi fighter which is a modification of the F-16. Also, China got an F-16 from Pakistan.

wat arguement?

the lavi is not an f-16 modification it was an attempt by israel to make their own aircraft using f-16 technologies

www.globalsecurity.org...

lol didnt they reject us f-16 or p3

You guys might find this a wee bit intresting...
*Original Source*
Indian pilots to match skills against F-16s


Indian air force (IAF) pilots will face off against US airmen in F-16 fighters in mock dogfights in November, officials said on Friday, two weeks after Washington agreed to sell the jets to nuclear rivals India and Pakistan.

Washington last month lifted a ban on sales of F-16 combat jets to Pakistan -- imposed in 1990 as a sanction over its nuclear weapons programme -- to demonstrate its support for a nation that had become a major ally in the war on terrorism after Sept. 11.

India slammed the US move, saying it could harm its peace talks with Pakistan, but Washington also tried to mollify New Delhi by offering to sell it the combat aircraft as well, besides the more advanced F-18 Hornet.

"The joint air exercise planned with the United States in November would provide an opportunity for us to assess the capabilities of the F-16 and its suitability to our requirements," said an Indian defence spokesman in Kolkata.

it looks to me like the americans are trying to play off pakistan againest india.
the next war between them might be fought with all american planes

[edit on 11-4-2005 by chinawhite]

I think we've pretty much gotten over the arguments in that "pathetic Chinese copies" thread. If not, then I guess it will be settled here!

Early Chinese fighters are reverse engineered mostly from Soviet fighters. At that time the Chinese aircraft designing companies have only begun their career and they probably had no idea how to design planes. Thus they had to reverse engineer existing fighters first in order to gain experience for designing new fighters. The J-5, J-6, and J-7 are examples of early reverse engineered fighters.

As time went on, Chinese fighter designs moved away from totally reverse engineering other aircraft, but rather starting new designs BASED on an existing fighter. Two notable examples are the Q-5 and the J-8 (and J-8II). The Q-5 originated from the J-6 which was a Chinese reverse engineered version of the MiG-19. It was a HEAVY modification of the J-6, and ended up looking NOTHING like the original. Same goes for the J-8. It originated from the J-7, which was a reverse engineered MiG-21, but the modification made it deviate so much from the MiG-21 design that it might as well be called a brand new fighter, which NATO did (they recognised it as "Finback" instead of "Fishbed" (same goes for Fantan, it's not called the Farmer)). The J-8 involved putting two engines in the J-7, and they ended up having to re-design the entire airframe to fit the two engines. Later, the J-8II had its nose intake replaced by two lateral intakes so the nose can have a good radar installed in it. It ended up looking even more different.

The J-10 is also somewhat like this, but a step further. This time they're not modifying existing aircraft, but rather designing a new plane using the Lavi as the "template." The whole plane is pretty much completely redesigned on top of the basic Lavi layout. Same goes for the FC-1, which used the MiG Product-33 as the template.

As Chinese designing companies gain more experience, they feel much less need to copy technology from other countries, because you can never surpass them if you copy them. Chinese aircraft design will start moving more and more toward indegenous designs in the near future until foreign assistance is no longer needed. AFAIK the J-XX designs are not based on any existing blueprint. However if it were to be stealthy it would inevitably look like the F-22 and have similar characteristics like internal weapons bay and stealthy intake design. Not like the Russian Pak-Fa isn't the same.

It's probably the Chinese ship designers that became creative first. Their new ships, the Type 052C and wave piercing FACs, both incorporated stealth features on their ships by designing them out of facets. The FAC was also a water piercer catamaran. AFAIK there aren't any missile patrol boats in the world that are remotely like this Chinese FAC. Links to Type 052C and water piercing catamaran
www.sinodefence.com...
www.sinodefence.com...

In addition, it is also the Chinese that designed the world's first long range anti radiation surface to air missile, the FT-2000.

My point is, the notion that so many people have that China is always copying is outdated. China did copy a lot when its weapon design companies are in their infant stages. As time moved on, they moved away from that practice, and soon they will be able to cut off all dependency on foreign aid in weapons design. If you know the Chinese, they are highly nationalistic, and copied technology is nothing to be proud of. The Chinese are extremely eager to break away from copying as soon as they are able and put what they have learned in the past few decades from the foreigners to good use.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Taishyou]

Originally posted by chinawhite
it looks to me like the americans are trying to play off pakistan againest india.
the next war between them might be fought with all american planes

[edit on 11-4-2005 by chinawhite]

That would be pretty hiliraious mate. American planes VS American planes, now that would be a battle of pure skill and not technological advancements over your enemy.

Originally posted by Taishyou
I think we've pretty much gotten over the arguments in that "pathetic Chinese copies" thread. If not, then I guess it will be settled here!

Early Chinese fighters are reverse engineered mostly from Soviet fighters. At that time the Chinese aircraft designing companies have only begun their career and they probably had no idea how to design planes. Thus they had to reverse engineer existing fighters first in order to gain experience for designing new fighters. The J-5, J-6, and J-7 are examples of early reverse engineered fighters.

As time went on, Chinese fighter designs moved away from totally reverse engineering other aircraft, but rather starting new designs BASED on an existing fighter. Two notable examples are the Q-5 and the J-8 (and J-8II). The Q-5 originated from the J-6 which was a Chinese reverse engineered version of the MiG-19. It was a HEAVY modification of the J-6, and ended up looking NOTHING like the original. Same goes for the J-8. It originated from the J-7, which was a reverse engineered MiG-21, but the modification made it deviate so much from the MiG-21 design that it might as well be called a brand new fighter, which NATO did (they recognised it as "Finback" instead of "Fishbed" (same goes for Fantan, it's not called the Farmer)). The J-8 involved putting two engines in the J-7, and they ended up having to re-design the entire airframe to fit the two engines. Later, the J-8II had its nose intake replaced by two lateral intakes so the nose can have a good radar installed in it. It ended up looking even more different.

The J-10 is also like this, basing its design on the Lavi. The Lavi was only the "template." The whole plane is pretty much completely redesigned on top of the basic Lavi layout.

As Chinese designing companies gain more experience, they feel much less need to copy technology from other countries, because you can never surpass them if you copy them. Chinese aircraft design will start moving more and more toward indegenous designs in the near future until foreign assistance is no longer needed.

It's probably the Chinese ship designers that became creative first. Their new ships, the Type 052C and wave piercing FACs, both incorporated stealth features on their ships by designing them out of facets. The FAC was also a water piercer catamaran. AFAIK there aren't any missile patrol boats in the world that are remotely like this Chinese FAC. Links to Type 052C and water piercing catamaran
www.sinodefence.com...
www.sinodefence.com...

In addition, it is also the Chinese that designed the world's first long range anti radiation surface to air missile, the FT-2000.

My point is, the prejudice that so many people get that China is always copying is outdated. China did copy a lot when its weapon design companies are in their infant stages. As time moved on, they moved away from that practice, and soon they will be able to cut off all dependency on foreign aid in weapons design. If you know the Chinese, they are highly nationalistic, and copied technology is nothing to be proud of. The Chinese are extremely eager to break away from copying as soon as they are able and put what they have learned in the past few decades from the foreigners to full use.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Taishyou]

omg Taishyou u rat . i was in the middle of writing the same thing. but i got to add china defence bugget was less than indias during 1980s. and only in the last 10 years china has changed from her Strategy of peoples war to peoples war under high tech conditions.

[edit on 11-4-2005 by chinawhite]

yeah chinawhite you rat!!
I was just going to ...ummm nothing..

The pathetic copies thread is over and done with...I disagreed with it wholeheartedly.. but I also disagree with the "pathetic" comeback threads that are being started in response to it...tsk tsk what a pity..

i found out about this site only a few days ago. and saw titles like chinese planes are pathetic i was pissed couldn't sleep had to write something to represent china

okay fair enough.. now since all our egos are satisfied we can go back to being civilised..

pretty satisfied

ego up and about

Yeah, lets close both threads, the indian and the chinese one.

The indian one is becoming a "Indian Vs Pakistani" thread which is funny since the title is "chinese aircrafts are pathetic copies".

Fighter aircraft in use:


Pakistan - 464


F-16 Fighting Falcon - 63
Mirage III - 121
Mirage 5 - 60
Chengdu J-7 - 192
Chengdu FC-1 - 28


India - 381

MiG-21 bis Bison - 121
MiG-29 "Fulcrum" - 69
Su-30MKI "Flanker-H" - 132
Mirage 2000 - 51
HAL Tejas - 8